Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
wtfluff wrote: ↑Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:11 pmSo again, as others have mentioned: Your biblical sources have no reference that Jesus had any "outstanding recognizable features" that made him stand out from any of the other folks in the region. Same thing as far as Mary is concerned. Wouldn't the logical conclusion be: He basically looked like the majority of other people from "Bethlehem" from that era? (Or Nazareth, depending on where you believe he was actually born?)
Yep.
Did you think I was saying something different?
These statements lead me to think you might be headed down a different path:
Palerider wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:21 pmAfter doing some observation it appears that both Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews have a range of complexion from fair skin with a variety of hair color to a somewhat "swarthy" skin and darker hair.
Facial features can be diverse as well and although an elongated nose is fairly common, it certainly isn't always typical.
On my initial read, this statement lead me there too:
Palerider wrote: ↑Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:40 pmI don't see the absence of comment as being a reason to think he might have been completely plain or ugly but still he may not have been remarkably different in physicality.
BUT: Holy the Ghost told me to read it with my spiritual eyes, and now I see differently.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus
wtfluff wrote: ↑Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:51 pm
BUT: Holy the Ghost told me to read it with my spiritual eyes, and now I see differently.
Better late than never.
Succinctly put, It seems that there are a fairly wide range of physical features that Christ might have had. But among those, I kind of doubt that he would have looked like the "waspy" Utah boys who seem to permeate Mormon art.
But then...one never knows....
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."
"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."
This makes me wonder, is it possible that there is retrievable DNA on the Shroud of Turin? What would happen if....... (I can think of dozens of possibilities)
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.
deacon blues wrote: ↑Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:23 pm
This makes me wonder, is it possible that there is retrievable DNA on the Shroud of Turin? What would happen if....... (I can think of dozens of possibilities)
I don't know....in 1988 they did carbon dating on the shroud that aged it at about 700 a.d.
Way late for being Christ's burial shroud.
But apparently some other scientists are looking into the possibility that an earthquake in 33 a.d. may have caused an "atomic reaction" that could have produced the imprint.
I'm not holding my breath.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."
"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."
Someone above was talking about the sex thing between Eloheim and Mary. There were ways I've heard about this, and I don't recall the sources, but will take a shot.
1. I think it was Joseph Fielding Smith who said in Doctrins of Salvation that mary being a virgin meant she was not touched by mortal hands.
2. Didn't BRM say that children came to Mary the same way they come to anyone else?
3. I think I remember Truman Madsen saying that Eloheim and Mary were married by Gabriel.
PS. If you really want to twist up a TBM, ask them what color will black people be resurrected as? Since they are children of Adam, and black skin was a curse. Not many TBMs, even now, can deal with that question.
didn't really have a response to that because it stirred up a bad past memory of an encounter I had with a born again Christian who hammered me with the "You Mormons think that God had sex with Mary." That was a WTF moment.
I remember my sister being super creeped out in high school because her seminary teacher told them that God "wined and dined" Mary and treated her really well before the deed. That is super creepy.
IMO this is a demonstration of our unwillingness to leave anything to mystery and also a relic of the justification of polygamy by incorporating it into our theology. Per the thinking in that era, God the father practiced polygamy with the Mary incident and Jesus did as well by being married to Mary, Martha and Mary Magdalene (also an awesome bit in the cartoon referenced above).
I am a big fan of Jesus and think his teachings are incredible, I would say my beliefs are in the liberal Christian camp. I see some huge problems with the nativity narrative and the idea of divine birth. The latest one I encountered while reading Mark was, if Jesus had this miraculous birth, would people in the synagogue in Nazareth dismissed him and asked if this was not the carpenter's son? If the nativity narrative was accurate, people in his home town would have for sure known the story and would have been in awe of him his whole life.
I think all indications are that he was a typical first century Palestine Jew. Anytime a writing says something unflattering, historians think it is probably accurate. So, I think there is good evidence he was unremarkable in physical appearance and probably had a fairly normal upbringing. I think all of these things make it more remarkable that he was able to teach radical new wisdom and threaten the religious and political leaders so much that they had him killed.
I have trouble with the virgin birth as well. To me, Jesus baptism answers it - the voice from heaven announces "this is my son", and then the dispute starts - whose son is this? and the answer is given in Luke's genealogy which ends in ...which was the son of Adam which was the son of God. In other words, Jesus is the son of God in the same way that everyone is the Son of God, we're all descended from Adam who was a son of God.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
deacon blues wrote: ↑Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:23 pm
This makes me wonder, is it possible that there is retrievable DNA on the Shroud of Turin? What would happen if....... (I can think of dozens of possibilities)
20% Neanderthal?
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams
