Polygamy and later sexual repression

[Rob4Hope]

I've made this point in the past, and I am starting to see evidence of the same. I just purchased "In Sacred Loneliness" (something I've wanted to read for a while) and am going through it.

In the past, I speculated that polygamy, whether admitted or not, had a lot to do with unbridled sexual appetite. Regardless, it was probably not uncommon for women to become envious, hostile, and downright angry about their "husband" going out and bedding any young lass he could sink his slanderous doctrinal "plural wife" fingers into. From this position, and because the only thing many of these women had available to them were their children, they embued their children with a distaste, even hatred in some cases, of sex for pleasure. Hence, the birth of repression.

Now, this is my hypothesis. This is what I think happened to people like Harold B. Lee, Spencer Kimball and others. They were slanted BECAUSE of their polygamous backgrounds....

Here are some things the book says:

Annie Clark Tanner wrote, "A woman in polygamy is compelled by her lone position to make a confidant of her children." Plural wife Olive Andeline Potter wrote, "I have worshiped my children all my life, as I have had no husband to love so all my love has been for them."

Further.....

The more women a man married, the greater the danger for serious problems in the family, for the husband's time and resources became more and more divided. By an almost cruel irony, the greater the number of women married, the greater the man's exaltation, according to nineteenth-century Mormon theology.

Somtimes polygamous wives consciously steeled themselves to limit affection for their husbands, as a strategy for emotional survival during absences. Violate Kimball advised a plural wife that "she must lay aside wholly all interest or thought in what her husband was doing while he was away from her" and be "pleased to him when he came in as she was pleased to see any friend". Anne Clark Tanner wrote, of her husband, "When he came to my house, he was more like a guest."

WOW,...this last quote flys in the FACE of what Bushman wrote in "Rough Stone Rolling" where Emma wouldn't let Joseph out of her sight. Every time she did, he was off with another woman!

[alas]

Actually the larger culture taught that sex was only for making babies (especially for women) and if you did it just because you enjoyed it, you were committing sin. Look at the Catholics. This idea is where the whole notion of birth control being sinful came from. Birth control was enabling people to enjoy sex without the resulting pregnancy. And so, explain why, if the sexual repression came from polygamy, that Catholics are still worse than Mormons on the sexual repression business and birth control.

Especially for women, enjoying sex is sinful. “It makes women more interested and they are likely to have an affair.” Just look at female genital mutilation for what sexual repression looks like. It is women that society has always wanted to repress, and it is out of fear that if women enjoy sex, they are going to turn into wanton lustful ho’s. It is MENS fear that their children will not really be their children that causes sexual repression.

It has nothing to do with polygamy and everything to do with controlling women. The only thing they have in common is that polygamy is about controlling women.

So, I was thinking that your theory doesn’t hold water.......except for the idea that many of the polygamous wives ended up hating men because they were so badly treated. And women tend to internalize their hatred and end up hating themselves as well as men. So, did the mothers of the guys you mentioned remarry after the death of the polygamist, or did they raise their sons as widows. Either way...Men raised by mothers who dote on them, but hate adult men end up with a confused identity. They KNOW their mother hated men, and they grow up to become a man. And that leads to a screwed up dude. Which may very well manifest in sexual repression.

So, let’s just say it is more complicated than just your theory.

[Red Ryder]

I think alas' explanation makes sense the most.

However, I'll just add in my own explanation.

Maybe it's all about the hygiene? Or lack thereof. Let's pretend I'm a well endowed pioneer woman. I can cook. I can clean. I can fancy my fancy to catch the eye of the prophet, the president of the 70, the stake president, and even the local farmer bishop, or whomever man God commands! I'm in tune with the Lords way of marriage. I become wife number 9.

I keep my house clean, the hay mattress fluffed, and the cowboy beans warm so that when my strong, mighty, righteous man among boys comes to visit me for a night I'll be ready. I'll be wearing a white dress, scented with that wonderful lavender detergent advertised in the Nauvoo Inquirer. I'll be ready to please the prophet or his representative. Whomever The Lord sends. I'll be ready.

Or so I thought... Suddenly when the sounds of a galloping horse awakens me in the middle of the night, I'm paralyzed with fear. As I pray for protection from The Lord, my prayers are interrupted by the front door opening fast then violently slamming shut. Suddenly a familiar voice rings out in the night. It's the Prophet Joseph commanding me to meet him in the barn. He speaks rapidly telling me that his time is cut short, he was running from the mob, and his horse may have a sprained ankle. I offer him a plate of the warmed cowboy beans hoping he declines because they are way over cooked. He declines stating he was fasting for a period of time in order to receive revelation.

As I meet him in the barn, he is drenched in sweat, a slight odor of whiskey weighs on his breath, and his hands are cold. He starts to undress me from my pajamas. Not my sexy nightgown as I always imagined, but my comfy ones I always sleep in when alone at night. As he caresses my neck, I smell a whiff of horse manure, and notice a large clump of horse tail hair stuck to his overcoat. I quickly take his jacket off. I shouldn't have done that as his jacket masked the smell of his dirty white shirt he was wearing. It was the most horrendous body odor you could imagine. Not the sweat of exertion, but the sweat of fear. Fear from running away from mob after mob.

I quickly remove that shirt and the next, and the next, and the next! What is it with Mormons and layers?? I finally get down to his garments and see that they were sown together keeping him in permanently. I go grab the sheep sheering scissors by the barn door and cut him free from them. I noticed he had some brown looking poop stains but he assured me they were nothing more than excess saddle oil soaked up by his G's.

At this point I'm completely freaked out because the prophet didn't measure up if you know what I mean. As he grabbed my hand he whispered "hold to the rod" and suddenly I felt the warm nasty bits of the prophet in my hands. Vomit came to my mouth. Before I swallowed, the prophets tongue was in my mouth. He didn't pull away and the smell of his rotting molars hit me like a ton of hay falling off Brother Smith's hay trailer.

I slowly began to hum the words to "We thank thee o God for a prophet" as I closed my eyes and found a space in my head to go to. It worked because the Prophet finished his sermon and before leaving assured me I've pleased God and my eternal salvation was safe for another six weeks until we meet again.

It's tough being a well endowed pioneer woman fancied by the Prophet of God. Sexual repression is just one of those challenges The Lord has blessed us with to endure to the end until indoor plumbing, hot water heaters, and axe body spray become mainstream morsels of everyday LDS Living!

[Palerider]

I think alas' explanation makes sense the most.

However, I'll just add in my own explanation.

Maybe it's all about the hygiene? Or lack thereof. Let's pretend I'm a well endowed pioneer woman. I can cook. I can clean. I can fancy my fancy to catch the eye of the prophet, the president of the 70, the stake president, and even the local farmer bishop, or whomever man God commands! I'm in tune with the Lords way of marriage. I become wife number 9.

I keep my house clean, the hay mattress fluffed, and the cowboy beans warm so that when my strong, mighty, righteous man among boys comes to visit me for a night I'll be ready. I'll be wearing a white dress, scented with that wonderful lavender detergent advertised in the Nauvoo Inquirer. I'll be ready to please the prophet or his representative. Whomever The Lord sends. I'll be ready.

Or so I thought... Suddenly when the sounds of a galloping horse awakens me in the middle of the night, I'm paralyzed with fear. As I pray for protection from The Lord, my prayers are interrupted by the front door opening fast then violently slamming shut. Suddenly a familiar voice rings out in the night. It's the Prophet Joseph commanding me to meet him in the barn. He speaks rapidly telling me that his time is cut short, he was running from the mob, and his horse may have a sprained ankle. I offer him a plate of the warmed cowboy beans hoping he declines because they are way over cooked. He declines stating he was fasting for a period of time in order to receive revelation.

As I meet him in the barn, he is drenched in sweat, a slight odor of whiskey weighs on his breath, and his hands are cold. He starts to undress me from my pajamas. Not my sexy nightgown as I always imagined, but my comfy ones I always sleep in when alone at night. As he caresses my neck, I smell a whiff of horse manure, and notice a large clump of horse tail hair stuck to his overcoat. I quickly take his jacket off. I shouldn't have done that as his jacket masked the smell of his dirty white shirt he was wearing. It was the most horrendous body odor you could imagine. Not the sweat of exertion, but the sweat of fear. Fear from running away from mob after mob.

I quickly remove that shirt and the next, and the next, and the next! What is it with Mormons and layers?? I finally get down to his garments and see that they were sown together keeping him in permanently. I go grab the sheep sheering scissors by the barn door and cut him free from them. I noticed he had some brown looking poop stains but he assured me they were nothing more than excess saddle oil soaked up by his G's.

At this point I'm completely freaked out because the prophet didn't measure up if you know what I mean. As he grabbed my hand he whispered "hold to the rod" and suddenly I felt the warm nasty bits of the prophet in my hands. Vomit came to my mouth. Before I swallowed, the prophets tongue was in my mouth. He didn't pull away and the smell of his rotting molars hit me like a ton of hay falling off Brother Smith's hay trailer.

I slowly began to hum the words to "We thank thee o God for a prophet" as I closed my eyes and found a space in my head to go to. It worked because the Prophet finished his sermon and before leaving assured me I've pleased God and my eternal salvation was safe for another six weeks until we meet again.

It's tough being a well endowed pioneer woman fancied by the Prophet of God. Sexual repression is just one of those challenges The Lord has blessed us with to endure to the end until indoor plumbing, hot water heaters, and axe body spray become mainstream morsels of everyday LDS Living!

I got nothin'.....

[wtfluff]

I got nothin'.....

My fingers are also speechless...

[Emower]

I got nothin'.....

My fingers are also speechless...

50 shades of Mormonism.

[Arcturus]

50 shades of Mormonism.

Seriously.

RR that was disturbing but also very well done.

[Arcturus]

Actually the larger culture taught that sex was only for making babies (especially for women) and if you did it just because you enjoyed it, you were committing sin. Look at the Catholics. This idea is where the whole notion of birth control being sinful came from. Birth control was enabling people to enjoy sex without the resulting pregnancy. And so, explain why, if the sexual repression came from polygamy, that Catholics are still worse than Mormons on the sexual repression business and birth control.

Great point here alas. But I think there could be some validity in your hypothesis R4H. Decades of polygamy certainly brought about a damaging cultural paradigm within Mormon marriages, which by itself my be distinct from the same sexual repression issues that humans have propagated throughout society in general. I think it's an interesting question if the general subconscious disgust for polygamy catalyzed Mormonism's hard core position on "chastity."

[Corsair]

It's tough being a well endowed pioneer woman fancied by the Prophet of God. Sexual repression is just one of those challenges The Lord has blessed us with to endure to the end until indoor plumbing, hot water heaters, and axe body spray become mainstream morsels of everyday LDS Living!

OK, Red, was this creative writing the result of an assignment from a therapist or did you write this on your own recognizance?

[blazerb]

I got nothin'.....

Double

RR, have you thought about writing romance novels? Maybe anti-romance novels?

[moksha]

I slowly began to hum the words to "We thank thee o God for a prophet" as I closed my eyes and found a space in my head to go to.

Just lay back, grit your teeth, and think of Nauvoo.

Sexual expression and sexual repression always coexist. That was true for naughty Victorians and Salt Lakers alike.

[Angel]

..." I have had no husband to love so all my love has been for them."

Polygamy hits home to me as dealing with an adulterous "high priest" husband seems similar. The quote "I have had no husband to love " hit home - or rather, I would say "I choose to no longer love my husband", or "I choose to not see him as a husband".... husband in name only etc. etc. The last time he cheated, I did not cry - did not blink an eye - did not give a flying F*** because in my heart, he is no longer my husband, he is nothing more than a room-mate, nothing more than an additional paycheck. Talking with another relative who has gone through the same thing - she agrees - you just change your mindset towards them, no longer attach yourself to them, no longer see them as a husband, no longer love them, no longer give a flying F*** about them - just use them for what you can use them for.

They want to cheat on you? use you? No worries ladies - two can play that game. They are no longer your "husband", they are nothing more than a paycheck. Put your love elsewhere - and that is right, your children are a great place to put it.

[Angel]

I think alas' explanation makes sense the most.

However, I'll just add in my own explanation.

Maybe it's all about the hygiene? Or lack thereof. Let's pretend I'm a well endowed pioneer woman. I can cook. I can clean. I can fancy my fancy to catch the eye of the prophet, the president of the 70, the stake president, and even the local farmer bishop, or whomever man God commands! I'm in tune with the Lords way of marriage. I become wife number 9.

I keep my house clean, the hay mattress fluffed, and the cowboy beans warm so that when my strong, mighty, righteous man among boys comes to visit me for a night I'll be ready. I'll be wearing a white dress, scented with that wonderful lavender detergent advertised in the Nauvoo Inquirer. I'll be ready to please the prophet or his representative. Whomever The Lord sends. I'll be ready.

Or so I thought... Suddenly when the sounds of a galloping horse awakens me in the middle of the night, I'm paralyzed with fear. As I pray for protection from The Lord, my prayers are interrupted by the front door opening fast then violently slamming shut. Suddenly a familiar voice rings out in the night. It's the Prophet Joseph commanding me to meet him in the barn. He speaks rapidly telling me that his time is cut short, he was running from the mob, and his horse may have a sprained ankle. I offer him a plate of the warmed cowboy beans hoping he declines because they are way over cooked. He declines stating he was fasting for a period of time in order to receive revelation.

As I meet him in the barn, he is drenched in sweat, a slight odor of whiskey weighs on his breath, and his hands are cold. He starts to undress me from my pajamas. Not my sexy nightgown as I always imagined, but my comfy ones I always sleep in when alone at night. As he caresses my neck, I smell a whiff of horse manure, and notice a large clump of horse tail hair stuck to his overcoat. I quickly take his jacket off. I shouldn't have done that as his jacket masked the smell of his dirty white shirt he was wearing. It was the most horrendous body odor you could imagine. Not the sweat of exertion, but the sweat of fear. Fear from running away from mob after mob.

I quickly remove that shirt and the next, and the next, and the next! What is it with Mormons and layers?? I finally get down to his garments and see that they were sown together keeping him in permanently. I go grab the sheep sheering scissors by the barn door and cut him free from them. I noticed he had some brown looking poop stains but he assured me they were nothing more than excess saddle oil soaked up by his G's.

At this point I'm completely freaked out because the prophet didn't measure up if you know what I mean. As he grabbed my hand he whispered "hold to the rod" and suddenly I felt the warm nasty bits of the prophet in my hands. Vomit came to my mouth. Before I swallowed, the prophets tongue was in my mouth. He didn't pull away and the smell of his rotting molars hit me like a ton of hay falling off Brother Smith's hay trailer.

I slowly began to hum the words to "We thank thee o God for a prophet" as I closed my eyes and found a space in my head to go to. It worked because the Prophet finished his sermon and before leaving assured me I've pleased God and my eternal salvation was safe for another six weeks until we meet again.

It's tough being a well endowed pioneer woman fancied by the Prophet of God. Sexual repression is just one of those challenges The Lord has blessed us with to endure to the end until indoor plumbing, hot water heaters, and axe body spray become mainstream morsels of everyday LDS Living!

or perhaps, maybe it is all about a power struggle, about learning how to own your own emotional well-being, learning how to be pro-active and able to to take ownership of your own heart and body.

I can cook, I can clean, but I don't do it for him, I do it for my children, for myself. He is now just a paycheck to me, now just a toy to be messed with... I remember the day where I learned how to take his manliness from him. He walked in after a hard-day's work. I work too, so no sympathy there, but I'll play the game - pretend to be the good wife, pretend to be impressed by his *little* achievements. That is the best way to mess with them you see, pretend to be innocent and grateful to them... so he walks in, and I put on the innocent/sexy/desperate/dependent housewife routine ad he falls for it, because, all women know most guys are idiots when it comes to reading or understanding people. It's amazing how easy it is to get someone to believe something - amazing how easily this "man led by the spirit" has no idea his own wife no longer loves or needs him. Hard to keep from laughing - but I do well, I keep the innocent face painted on, and play the role that will give me the most dividends... and here comes the most fun part of it all... messing with him in the bedroom. You see, Guys can orgasm so easily, have no self-control, and they attach much of their "manhood" into their "performance"... want to make a man humble? here is what you do ladies - let him know he was not good enough for you, let him know he did not "get you there" - be discrete about it, "oh, that's ok honey, I know you tried" ha-ha - make them feel like the worthless piece of crap they are in bed, and you just won the power struggle. ... then you go take care of your own needs in the next room - that's right - you don't need anything from them ... now that bastard, he is going to have to prove himself to you in other ways, he's going to have to "make it up" to you - he is going to clean your house, he's going to buy you presents, going to do everything he can to make up for his sorry *** not satisfying you in bed, and every time he sees you he will lower his eyes because he knows he is not man enough to satisfy a woman in bed....

that is how that goes down ladies.... two can play this game.

I suspect Emma knew how to play the game...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcInBP6ziT4

[Red Ryder]

I can cook, I can clean, but I don't do it for him, I do it for my children, for myself. He is now just a paycheck to me, now just a toy to be messed with... I remember the day where I learned how to take his manliness from him. He walked in after a hard-day's work. I work too, so no sympathy there, but I'll play the game - pretend to be the good wife, pretend to be impressed by his *little* achievements. That is the best way to mess with them you see, pretend to be innocent and grateful to them... so he walks in, and I put on the innocent/sexy/desperate/dependent housewife routine ad he falls for it, because, all women know most guys are idiots when it comes to reading or understanding people. It's amazing how easy it is to get someone to believe something - amazing how easily this "man led by the spirit" has no idea his own wife no longer loves or needs him. Hard to keep from laughing - but I do well, I keep the innocent face painted on, and play the role that will give me the most dividends... and here comes the most fun part of it all... messing with him in the bedroom. You see, Guys can orgasm so easily, have no self-control, and they attach much of their "manhood" into their "performance"... want to make a man humble? here is what you do ladies - let him know he was not good enough for you, let him know he did not "get you there" - be discrete about it, "oh, that's ok honey, I know you tried" ha-ha - make them feel like the worthless piece of crap they are in bed, and you just won the power struggle. ... then you go take care of your own needs in the next room - that's right - you don't need anything from them ... now that bastard, he is going to have to prove himself to you in other ways, he's going to have to "make it up" to you - he is going to clean your house, he's going to buy you presents, going to do everything he can to make up for his sorry *** not satisfying you in bed, and every time he sees you he will lower his eyes because he knows he is not man enough to satisfy a woman in bed....

Damn Angel!

I'm not sure what to say. Sorry if my polyg fan fiction caused your emotional response. I forget that real people are harmed by this stuff even on an emotional level.

Can we dig into this one and peek behind a few layers? A couple of questions if you don't mind.

1. Were you just in Florida?
2. Why stay? For the paycheck?
3. Is staying a long term option or are you making an exit plan?
4. Do you know you deserve better? You do!

[Angel]

Damn Angel!

I'm not sure what to say. Sorry if my polyg fan fiction caused your emotional response. I forget that real people are harmed by this stuff even on an emotional level.

Can we dig into this one and peek behind a few layers? A couple of questions if you don't mind.

1. Were you just in Florida?
2. Why stay? For the paycheck?
3. Is staying a long term option or are you making an exit plan?
4. Do you know you deserve better? You do!

Haha - do I have a twin in Florida?
I stay after calculating legal costs, custody battles - he makes more, I'm better off staying than losing even partial custody of the kids at this point.
At this point, I am not interested in any other marriage - not impressed with that sort of thing any more. I value friendships much more than marriage. Friendship - has respect, freedom, honesty, equality - all the things marriage does not have. Deserve better? Not looking for a "new and better boyfriend" - I'm done with all that. Friendship is better, I have that. The guy is not horrible - he's just not a husband, he is now a "room-mate". It is all in a mindset - no need to let anyone hurt or mess with you.

Note to the large percentage of people who particip ... infidelity - know it is a trade, it is a choice. Do you want to be loved and respected? or do you want to be considered and treated as a slut (male slut, or female slut, it goes both ways). That is fine if you are not into committed relationships - but if fidelity is not your thing, don't lie about it - don't hurt your spouse.

[Rob4Hope]

At the Bill Reel thing in St George. Will respond when I can....

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[Linked]

..." I have had no husband to love so all my love has been for them."

Polygamy hits home to me as dealing with an adulterous "high priest" husband seems similar. The quote "I have had no husband to love " hit home - or rather, I would say "I choose to no longer love my husband", or "I choose to not see him as a husband".... husband in name only etc. etc. The last time he cheated, I did not cry - did not blink an eye - did not give a flying F*** because in my heart, he is no longer my husband, he is nothing more than a room-mate, nothing more than an additional paycheck. Talking with another relative who has gone through the same thing - she agrees - you just change your mindset towards them, no longer attach yourself to them, no longer see them as a husband, no longer love them, no longer give a flying F*** about them - just use them for what you can use them for.

They want to cheat on you? use you? No worries ladies - two can play that game. They are no longer your "husband", they are nothing more than a paycheck. Put your love elsewhere - and that is right, your children are a great place to put it.

I love your post Angel. I am sorry that you had to go through what I assume was a lot of pain to get to where you are, and I hope you are happy with where you are (your subsequent post suggests that you are not too unhappy with it). The reality of your post is beautiful. The terrible things people do to each other and the way we find a way to survive through it all. I wish you weren't cheated on, but I appreciate your willingness to share about it.

I also appreciated your response to RR's romance novel.

[Red Ryder]

Haha - do I have a twin in Florida?
I stay after calculating legal costs, custody battles - he makes more, I'm better off staying than losing even partial custody of the kids at this point.
At this point, I am not interested in any other marriage - not impressed with that sort of thing any more. I value friendships much more than marriage. Friendship - has respect, freedom, honesty, equality - all the things marriage does not have. Deserve better? Not looking for a "new and better boyfriend" - I'm done with all that. Friendship is better, I have that. The guy is not horrible - he's just not a husband, he is now a "room-mate". It is all in a mindset - no need to let anyone hurt or mess with you.

This just helped me realize I romanticize relationships by suggesting "you deserve better". You sound like you know exactly what you want and get out of your current relationship. I won't judge that and think any less of you. In reality we all negotiate for our own needs. Thanks for opening my eyes to this. Honestly I probably wouldn't remarry myself but look for a relationship built on the idea that you being your best self to the relationship and then move along if and when you can no longer do that. Of course finding the right person may help bring forward your best self, but there I go romanticizing relationships again. I guess what I'm saying is I would ride the chemical romance as long as possible then move on.

Humor aside, relationships and sexual relationships are complicated. Great response.

Rob, sorry I nuked your post but I think we teased out a really good topic.

[Angel]

I also appreciated your response to RR's romance novel.

Stories of victimized women have always bothered me - women need to take stories of victimization - true or false stories - and turn them on their heads if we are to progress as a gender.

Thanks for the support.

[Angel]

Haha - do I have a twin in Florida?
I stay after calculating legal costs, custody battles - he makes more, I'm better off staying than losing even partial custody of the kids at this point.
At this point, I am not interested in any other marriage - not impressed with that sort of thing any more. I value friendships much more than marriage. Friendship - has respect, freedom, honesty, equality - all the things marriage does not have. Deserve better? Not looking for a "new and better boyfriend" - I'm done with all that. Friendship is better, I have that. The guy is not horrible - he's just not a husband, he is now a "room-mate". It is all in a mindset - no need to let anyone hurt or mess with you.

This just helped me realize I romanticize relationships by suggesting "you deserve better". You sound like you know exactly what you want and get out of your current relationship. I won't judge that and think any less of you. In reality we all negotiate for our own needs. Thanks for opening my eyes to this. Honestly I probably wouldn't remarry myself but look for a relationship built on the idea that you being your best self to the relationship and then move along if and when you can no longer do that. Of course finding the right person may help bring forward your best self, but there I go romanticizing relationships again. I guess what I'm saying is I would ride the chemical romance as long as possible then move on.

Humor aside, relationships and sexual relationships are complicated. Great response.

Rob, sorry I nuked your post but I think we teased out a really good topic.

progression:
Dependent → independent→inter dependent.

I think many LDS women never make it through the independent stage, never work to support themselves, never view their salvation and eternal destination as controllable etc. etc.

If there is a healthy relationship out there, it is "inter-dependent". Not based on sex, not based on gifts, based on a deep friendship.