This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
It was an interesting lesson we had on Sunday. The teacher was substituting that day and he is a college professor. He started talking about the problem between our definitions of faith and hope, and where does belief come into the picture. I was actually starting to get excited, because it was interesting. He even used the example of the issues with a scientific theory and our everyday definition of theory.
Then he went into how our own biases and filters we create can skew our perception of reality and truth. My NOM senses were tingling. The buildup was a letdown though, because the remainder of the lesson was how we can put on “good” filters to have more faith and belief in the “Gospel”.
So, my take was that he was saying as long as the filter helps increase your faith in the church, it’s all good, regardless of whether the filter distorts your perception from seeing reality.
DW hated the lesson. But, we both actually have some personality conflicts with the teacher. He comes across as self-righteous and arrogant. DW made the comment after class that if he becomes our next Bishop, she might have to stop coming. I told her we could stop going and just tell people we were offended. I didn’t say this to her, but that might be something for me to pray for.
I always perk up during those moments when something is being said, and you're thinking they have to be heading into deeper waters with this one... and then nothing and back to shallow waters. My wife isn't fully aware of my status yet, so I try not to rock the boat too much but I look forward to the day when I can.
Your teacher does sound pretty arrogant, but at least he is fully aware that his testimony is as fragile as a moonbeam They don't even seem to talk about how testimonies should be able to stand up the the fiery darts of the adversary anymore, now it's all about how important it is to not challenge our belief.
Deepthinker wrote:So, my take was that he was saying as long as the filter helps increase your faith in the church, it’s all good, regardless of whether the filter distorts your perception from seeing reality.
Seems like the goal should be to learn how filters bend our perception of reality so that we can overcome their effects and see things as the really are, not use the filters to essentially lie to ourselves. For a religion that is supposedly founded on "the truth", it sure likes to twist it to suit its needs.
Deepthinker wrote:DW hated the lesson. But, we both actually have some personality conflicts with the teacher. He comes across as self-righteous and arrogant. DW made the comment after class that if he becomes our next Bishop, she might have to stop coming. I told her we could stop going and just tell people we were offended. I didn’t say this to her, but that might be something for me to pray for.
Funny how what we pray for changes!
I've experienced what you did many times - someone will say something that gets my attention away from my phone - I look up and sit on the edge of my seat, thinking "This guy (or girl) gets it!"... and then inevitably, my bubble is popped by something like, "So, we must do as the prophets say, no matter what we think is right."
I do believe that subjectivity (filtering) is inevitable for everyone, but I also believe that filtering should be as functional as possible.
And I think that happens with an open mind - to "finding truth wherever it's found" - not putting on blinders to any inconvenient truths.
I think I've lost the ability to get hopeful and excited about anything in a church lesson that appears to hold the promise of actual introspection. Even if the teacher were to try to go there the members of the class would shut it down. I've seen too many instances of someone on the verge of flipping on a switch (both teachers and class members), only to have the lightbulb over their head smashed by the bitter hammer of groupthink. I have also seen those whose bulbs were extinguished (shamed, humbled and repentant) return with an even bigger hammer to bring down the next guy who dares reach for the switch.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Hagoth wrote:I think I've lost the ability to get hopeful and excited about anything in a church lesson that appears to hold the promise of actual introspection. Even if the teacher were to try to go there the members of the class would shut it down. I've seen too many instances of someone on the verge of flipping on a switch (both teachers and class members), only to have the lightbulb over their head smashed by the bitter hammer of groupthink. I have also seen those whose bulbs were extinguished (shamed, humbled and repentant) return with an even bigger hammer to bring down the next guy who dares reach for the switch.
With letdowns like this lesson, I'm approaching where you are in not being as hopeful or excited.
I was so ready to make a comment, but I kept quiet for DW.
Hagoth wrote:I've seen too many instances of someone on the verge of flipping on a switch (both teachers and class members), only to have the lightbulb over their head smashed by the bitter hammer of groupthink.
Group-thought - that's a whole topic in itself!
For so long - even after my faith crisis, I felt kind of that sense of stage fright - like it's you against THEM - and you have no chance - if they decided to attack. Of course, they don't throw stones anymore - it's much more subtle than that.
For a long time, I thought that even though I may logically understand clearly how ridiculous group thought can be - I still was intimidated by "strength in numbers." If everyone's doing it - thinking it - maybe I'm the crazy one if I'm the odd ball. Recently, I've began to realize that no matter who someone is - what social ranking or other ranking they have - "God is no respector of persons" - we all are of value - we all have strengths and weaknesses.
Although I'm not really better than anyone who hasn't realized things about Mormonism, I have an advantage for seeing more clearly because group thought is generally more insane than individual thought. "Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule." -F.N. And Carl Jung explained how the more group-thought it is the more animalistic - the lower conscience it has, which is why some big groups can get away with things that individuals could never.
Deepthinker wrote:I was so ready to make a comment, but I kept quiet for DW.
Newme wrote:I felt kind of that sense of stage fright - like it's you against THEM - and you have no chance - if they decided to attack. Of course, they don't throw stones anymore - it's much more subtle than that.
I relate to both of these comments. I have never been much for speaking up in class anyway but after my faith crisis I often found myself sitting there in a cold sweat with my heart pounding and thinking "I've got to SAY something, what they're talking about is wrong and crazy!" But after seeing many well-meaning believers slapped down for coloring just a bit outside of the lines I have come to realize that just about anything I say is only going to reflect poorly on my wife and cause a lot of frowny faces on people who aren't really there to learn anything in the first place; they're there to gain reassurance about their beliefs by being in the room full of people who believe the same brand of crazy. When they hit one of my hot buttons, like Thomas Marsh and milk strippings, Mrs. Hagoth squeezes my hand just to show sympathy for the fact that my blood pressure is skyrocketing.
Lately I've been skipping a lot of Sunday school. I can only see that trend increasing as we get into a full year of whitewashed history, but my New Years resolution is to look for opportunities to ask an occasional thought-provoking question. The next time a Sunday school teacher accuses people of losing their testimony because they expect Joseph Smith to be perfect, and how we need to accept that he made mistakes, I'm going to ask for some specific examples of mistakes that we need to forgive.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Hagoth wrote:Lately I've been skipping a lot of Sunday school. I can only see that trend increasing as we get into a full year of whitewashed history, but my New Years resolution is to look for opportunities to ask an occasional thought-provoking question. The next time a Sunday school teacher accuses people of losing their testimony because they expect Joseph Smith to be perfect, and how we need to accept that he made mistakes, I'm going to ask for some specific examples of mistakes that we need to forgive.
I admit I've almost been excited for SS to cover D&C in 2017. I would be the smartest guy in the class! Assuming I'm attending, of course.
If I find myself in an LDS SS class, I'm gonna bust out the electric mixer and stir the shiz outta that pot!
Hagoth wrote:I relate to both of these comments. I have never been much for speaking up in class anyway but after my faith crisis I often found myself sitting there in a cold sweat with my heart pounding and thinking "I've got to SAY something, what they're talking about is wrong and crazy!" But after seeing many well-meaning believers slapped down for coloring just a bit outside of the lines I have come to realize that just about anything I say is only going to reflect poorly on my wife and cause a lot of frowny faces on people who aren't really there to learn anything in the first place; they're there to gain reassurance about their beliefs by being in the room full of people who believe the same brand of crazy. When they hit one of my hot buttons, like Thomas Marsh and milk strippings, Mrs. Hagoth squeezes my hand just to show sympathy for the fact that my blood pressure is skyrocketing.
Lately I've been skipping a lot of Sunday school. I can only see that trend increasing as we get into a full year of whitewashed history, but my New Years resolution is to look for opportunities to ask an occasional thought-provoking question. The next time a Sunday school teacher accuses people of losing their testimony because they expect Joseph Smith to be perfect, and how we need to accept that he made mistakes, I'm going to ask for some specific examples of mistakes that we need to forgive.
I know what you mean - the same teaching - "every member a missionary" has not suddenly disappeared. I still feel the need to enlighten people. Except now - my idea of enlightened is not theirs.' Often, I think, "What if some day in the future, they somehow figure out I knew all along about so much that I didn't tell them - and what if they're pissed because I didn't at least try to help them think better so they could live better." Then another thought comes, "But the times I've tried to tell them, it backfired bad."
I think you might have the right approach by asking questions, as if you're really curious and want to know. But be careful because if they don't know the difference between "playing" devil's advocate and actually being of the devil.
Korihor wrote:I admit I've almost been excited for SS to cover D&C in 2017. I would be the smartest guy in the class! Assuming I'm attending, of course.
If I find myself in an LDS SS class, I'm gonna bust out the electric mixer and stir the shiz outta that pot!
You helped inspire a fantasy of a class 75% full of NOMS - where the shiz hits the fan and hits everyone who doesn't know shiz from chocolate.
I know it's just a fantasy though, but I think I have heard more open-minded comments increasingly over time compared to 10 years ago.
Korihor wrote:I admit I've almost been excited for SS to cover D&C in 2017. I would be the smartest guy in the class! Assuming I'm attending, of course.
If I find myself in an LDS SS class, I'm gonna bust out the electric mixer and stir the shiz outta that pot!
You helped inspire a fantasy of a class 75% full of NOMS - where the shiz hits the fan and hits everyone who doesn't know shiz from chocolate.
I know it's just a fantasy though, but I think I have heard more open-minded comments increasingly over time compared to 10 years ago.
How cool would that be if several of us show up at someones ward and steamroll the SS teacher? I like this fantasy.
Korihor wrote:I admit I've almost been excited for SS to cover D&C in 2017. I would be the smartest guy in the class! Assuming I'm attending, of course.
If I find myself in an LDS SS class, I'm gonna bust out the electric mixer and stir the shiz outta that pot!
You helped inspire a fantasy of a class 75% full of NOMS - where the shiz hits the fan and hits everyone who doesn't know shiz from chocolate.
I know it's just a fantasy though, but I think I have heard more open-minded comments increasingly over time compared to 10 years ago.
How cool would that be if several of us show up at someones ward and steamroll the SS teacher? I like this fantasy.
Tell me when and where and I'll be there... as long as it's convenient of course.
They don't even seem to talk about how testimonies should be able to stand up the the fiery darts of the adversary anymore, now it's all about how important it is to not challenge our belief.
Funny how what we pray for changes! 
