Temple endowment-ancient origins

[Palerider]

1. I'd really like to see the evidence for RMN's statement that the temple ceremonies are of "ancient origin".

2. I now have one of the finest examples of circular reasoning I've ever heard in the church.

"These sacred temple rites are ancient. And that antiquity to me is thrilling and another evidence of their authenticity." RMN

So we have zero evidence that the temple rites are ancient. But if we take it for granted that they are ancient, then that affirms their authenticity.

They are authentic because they are ancient. Just like all those Egyptian god's that are buried in tombs are authentic because they are ancient.

Somebody please, please tell this poor man to stop digging!!! The hole he's in is already way too deep.

[Mormorrisey]

Yeah, that was bizarre, especially given the Masonic origins of the temple. It's amazing what you see when you actually know stuff.

Even more bizarre to me was Nelson's claim that there was "power" in using the proper name of the church. What power would that be? To bore all the people you talk to with all the syllables you have to use? I wish I had a time machine to see if younger me bought into all of this. I have a sinking feeling that I did.

[The Beast]

Yeah, that was bizarre, especially given the Masonic origins of the temple. It's amazing what you see when you actually know stuff.

Even more bizarre to me was Nelson's claim that there was "power" in using the proper name of the church. What power would that be? To bore all the people you talk to with all the syllables you have to use? I wish I had a time machine to see if younger me bought into all of this. I have a sinking feeling that I did.

It's like the difference between saying "expelliarmus" and "expelliharmus."

[wtfluff]

Yeah, that was bizarre, especially given the Masonic origins of the temple. It's amazing what you see when you actually know stuff.

Even more bizarre to me was Nelson's claim that there was "power" in using the proper name of the church. What power would that be? To bore all the people you talk to with all the syllables you have to use? I wish I had a time machine to see if younger me bought into all of this. I have a sinking feeling that I did.

It's like the difference between saying "expelliarmus" and "expelliharmus."

Or: Smelly Arm-Pits!!!

Which probably actually has more power than using the full COJ-COLDS name.

[moksha]

I suspect President Nelson would point to the Masonic rites, which formed the basis of the COJCOLDS Temple ceremony, as being derived from secret knowledge passed on from the building of Solomon's Temple.

[Brent]

The leadership of The Church Formerly Known as Mormon, being ancient, is oddly qualified to talk about the rites of their youth.

[no1saint]

In theory the rites of freemasonry are rooted in the esoteric rituals of fraternal organisations going back centuries. As the endowment is a blatant rip off from freemasonry, his assertion that it has ancient roots is correct.

[Palerider]

In theory the rites of freemasonry are rooted in the esoteric rituals of fraternal organisations going back centuries. As the endowment is a blatant rip off from freemasonry, his assertion that it has ancient roots is correct.

I'm sorry to burst this bubble but according to Henry Car an eminent Masonic lecturer:

"BRETHREN, MANY Of YOU will know that I travel vast distances in the course of my lecture duties and the further I go the more astonished I am to see how many Brethren believe, quite genuinely, that our masonic ritual came down straight from heaven, directly into the hands of King Solomon. They are all quite certain that it was in English, of course, because that is the only language they speak up there. They are equally sure that it was all engraved on two tablets of stone, so that, heaven forbid, not one single word should ever be altered; and most of them believe that King Solomon, in his own lodge, practiced the same ritual as they do in theirs.

But, it was not like that at all....."

Further reading reveals:

"The oldest version, the Regius Manuscript, is in rhyming verse and differs, in several respects, from the other texts, but, in their general shape and contents they are all very much alike. They begin with an Opening Prayer, Christian and Trinitarian, and then they go on with a history of the craft, starting in Bible times and in Bible lands, and tracing the rise of the craft and its spread right across Europe until it reached France and was then brought across the channel and finally established in England. Unbelievably bad history; any professor of history would drop dead if he were challenged to prove it; but the masons believed it. This was their guarantee of respectability as an ancient craft."

https://www.google.com/amp/freemasoninf ... itual/amp/

Many Mason's suffer from the understanding that the rites are of very ancient origins and I suppose if one wanted to consider 600 years ago as "ancient" then I would concede that fact.

But to support the rites coming from Adam down to Solomon etc., etc. and then being "restored" through Joseph Smith is totally unsupportable. Unless one wants to give weight to pure legend.

And then I prefer those of the American frontier like Paul Bunyan and his giant blue ox, Babe.

[alas]

But, but, but, if one believes Hugh Nibley, Nelson is correct because Nibley found all kinds of things in ancient Egyptian pictures to *prove* that the ancient Egyptians had the endowment ceremony. Didn’t matter that he was looking at the style of Egyptian pictures and twisting it to mean they had their right arm raised to the square, then twisting that to mean they were showing pictures of the endowment. This is all in some old book by Nibley that really impressed me (that Nibley was a lunatic)

[Palerider]

But, but, but, if one believes Hugh Nibley, Nelson is correct because Nibley found all kinds of things in ancient Egyptian pictures to *prove* that the ancient Egyptians had the endowment ceremony. Didn’t matter that he was looking at the style of Egyptian pictures and twisting it to mean they had their right arm raised to the square, then twisting that to mean they were showing pictures of the endowment. This is all in some old book by Nibley that really impressed me (that Nibley was a lunatic)

Furthermore, I think they have now found that some of Nibley's documentation and footnotes were either incorrect or missing altogether. The guy was definitely cheating on his research.

Which makes one wonder about his daughter's allegations of sexual abuse....

[Hagoth]

Even more bizarre to me was Nelson's claim that there was "power" in using the proper name of the church. What power would that be?

You know, like Betelgeuse, Betelgeuse, Betelgeuse!

[Hagoth]

1. I'd really like to see the evidence for RMN's statement that the temple ceremonies are of "ancient origin".

What a silly question, Palerider. It was spoken by the mouth of a prophet (himself), therefore it's true. If you weren't dead to the things of the spirit due to your hardened heart you would know better than to even ask such an insincere question .

[RubinHighlander]

This "ancient knowledge restored" is a common theme in religion. I think Scientology did it best by going way back and beyond human history and beyond the Earth to aliens. This theme is the best ruse to use for religious BS because of it's ability to BS people into denying facts and science in lieu of super special super natural things that only their leaders know and share a little bit with them. It's just one more way to fuel tribal world view.

It's funny to see how the COB is trying to dummy down so many themes and narratives it used to use to keep up the super special differentiation between them and the church down the street, because the old ways just don't work anymore: 2nd coming last days, church growth, priesthood miracles, etc. Maybe RSM feels like the ancient temple ceremony comment is just enough gray area he can get away with it; like some have pointed out here, if the Masons believe it TBMs can be justified to believe it. Comparing some of ceremony to ancient cultural rituals can have just enough parallels to make the average TBM believe it. I don't think it's as bad as a taper vs a horse...well, maybe it is.

I remember in the lat 80's attending a fireside by some Jewish guy, converted to The Church Formerly Known AS Mormons (TCFKAMs) who would do paid tours back to the holy land. He was also suppose to be an expert in ancient Jewish rituals, etc. He was showing some drawings of how the Jews dressed in the temple back in the day and pointing out several parallels with the modern COB ceremony. At the time it was pretty convincing there was something there, but looking back it was not nearly enough to be conclusive (like so much of the appologetics). I mean, I watch the British Backing Show, those people ware aprons. If I happen to see one with grape leaves on it should I get all excited and start doing firesides that British Bakers must have some ancient knowledge of the COBs temple ceremony?

[Palerider]

In theory the rites of freemasonry are rooted in the esoteric rituals of fraternal organisations going back centuries. As the endowment is a blatant rip off from freemasonry, his assertion that it has ancient roots is correct.

Re-reading this I may need to give you an apology. Maybe you were speaking in terms of a few centuries as opposed to the time of Solomon or Adam.

Sometimes I get a little hasty in rebuttal.

[Hagoth]

He was showing some drawings of how the Jews dressed in the temple back in the day and pointing out several parallels with the modern COB ceremony.

But in the case of Mormon temple ceremonies, the clothing came from the Masons too:

[jfro18]

But in the case of Mormon temple ceremonies, the clothing came from the Masons too:

I've never seen a picture before of the Masons dressed so much like the Mormon ceremony - that is absolutely brutal.

Not to mention the "Holiness to the Lord" above which even Saints boasts as some big revelation from Joseph to have on every temple.

Unreal. Today has me more triggered against the church than GenConf did, and I can't say a word about it.

[Palerider]

I've never seen a picture before of the Masons dressed so much like the Mormon ceremony - that is absolutely brutal.

You can't jump to conclusions on this sort of thing. It could be a very, very, very odd coincidence and I feel pretty sure....kind of sure....maybe even positive, that Fairmormon has a good explanation for the similarities.

They just gotta!?!?

[wtfluff]

At least the Mason's costumes are a bit unique, and more ornate.

But then again, everyone in mormonism is supposed to be a clone of a GA. (Darn it, there goes SATAN winning again...)

Every member of tCOJCOLDS a clone!

[Palerider]

At least the Mason's costumes are a bit unique, and more ornate.

But then again, everyone in mormonism is supposed to be a clone of a GA. (Darn it, there goes SATAN winning again...)

Every member of tCOJCOLDS a clone!

But Mormon costumes have something that none of these Masonic costumes do. And that's what makes them special, sacred and set apart from those of the corrupted masons.

Mormon baker hats have that wonderful little tie down that attaches to your shoulder. That had to have been revealed. No ordinary man would have ever thought of that detail. Only a prophet....

[no1saint]

In theory the rites of freemasonry are rooted in the esoteric rituals of fraternal organisations going back centuries. As the endowment is a blatant rip off from freemasonry, his assertion that it has ancient roots is correct.

Re-reading this I may need to give you an apology. Maybe you were speaking in terms of a few centuries as opposed to the time of Solomon or Adam.

Sometimes I get a little hasty in rebuttal.

I was vague in the details as well. No need to apologise. Robust debate is why we’re on here.

In a western context the emergence of the Scottish rite of Freemasonry goes to the 18th century I think.

In a holistic sense, ritual to teach esoteric knowledge predates that in various cultures going back centuries. In my own culture, the whare wananga...or house of learning was where high born children chosen to be taught spiritual and temporal knowledge undertook various rituals to introduce and reinforce concepts and knowledge.

Mormonism recycled Freemasonry. Fremasonry recycled traditions and rituals. Rinse and repeat.

Personally my spiritually leaves space for a wide spectrum of faiths, traditions and theology to simultaneously have truth in their own spheres, whilst reflecting and interpreting in their own way universal truths.

My disappointment with Mormonism is that it has become too literal, too mainstream Christianity, too bland and too flavourless to be relevant anymore. By desperately clinging to a 1950’s off clean cut American respectability, it has lost its soul.

In my opinion, regardless of JS introducing the endowment to accomodate polygamy and his extra marital affairs and pedophilia, the original format of ritual and symbolism could have and should have created a deep personal interaction with the universe and our relationship with godliness. Strip back the bullshit oaths to the church, treat Genisis as it should be (a metaphor), use the apostles as archetypes of spiritual messengers representative of multiple types found globally, and insert the heavenly mother and suddenly there is a space to symbolically walk through the universe and unlock its secrets on a deep personal level.