Update. Why I am angry with victims (myself)

[alas]

This is why women or men who are victims of sexual impropriety do NOT speak out -- because people become so angry with them, as shown in this thread.

Alas is angrier with Courtney Kendrick than she is with Kirby, who initiated the action. In other words, the blowback is directed at Kendrick, who will almost certainly be notified of this thread via the blogosphere. NOM is widely read throughout the bloggernacle, and Kendrick will see all this anger.

( I don't think anyone here should notify her -- and I certainly will not, as I have no way to contact her --- but, undoubtedly, the thread will be forwarded to her). Wndr.

You have NO idea how angry I am with creep of the week!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can I say any LOUDER THAT WHAT CREEP OF THE WEEK DID WAS DISCUSTING?

I ha e said ove and over and over and over that creep of the week is totally responsible for his behavior.

Now can we move on. I want to talk about BETTER ways for women to handle harassment. Not blame the victim. I have SAID ABOUT 20 TIMES NOW THAT I UNDERSTAND WHY SHE DID NOT SAY ANYTHING AT THE TIME? SHE WAS TAUGHT NOT TO? SHE WAS TAUGHT TO KEEP SWEET?

Now I want to talk about ways women can handle harassment that are better ways than keeping sweet.

If you have ideas about how women should handle harassment, I am all for that. But if you want to keep whining about how I am blaming the victim, then start your own thread.

I want a conversation that will help our daughters know a better way to handle harassment and the creeps they run into because unless you plan on poisoning everything with a Y hromozome, they will meet up with creeps. Now contribute to the current conversation or go start your own.

[alas]

You know, and while we are trying to teach women better ways of handling abuse, harassment, rape, domestic violence and all other forms of horrendous behavior, maybe we can help teach them the benefits of prompt reporting. And I won’t pick on what’s her face or use the story of creep of the week. Why didn’t I report after I figured out what sex was and what my father was doing to me? Well because I had been thoroughly trained in keeping sweet and that my needs came below several males in my family?

Now, discuss what would have made reporting easier for that 13 year old kid.

[Wonderment]

Now contribute to the current conversation or go start your own.

I believe that I am contributing to the conversation. Please remain civil and respectful. Thank you, from Wndr.

[alas]

Now contribute to the current conversation or go start your own.

I believe that I am contributing to the conversation. Please remain civil and respectful. Thank you, from Wndr.

No, you are having a conversation about “feminism 203: what rape culture teaches about responsibility” while I am trying to have a conversation which you ether are not even reading, or not comprehending about “feminism 605: what to teach our granddaughters.”

I will not bother responding to you again as we are on totally different planets. You do not know me, yet presume to judge.

[MoPag]

Okay, I think I get where Alas an MM are coming from. We really do need to find ways to empower each other.

But I also think we are all at different stages of our feminist journeys. I am suuuper triggered by rape culture. When I first started reading alas's comments on the other thread I was like "wuuuut???" But I trust her, and I tried chill my triggered emotions, and I can see where she is coming from. I would love to hear examples of empowered immediate responses to sexual harassment. I would love for empowered immediate responses to a$$holes become the norm. I would love to read twitter and reddit threads where woman share what was said to them and then how they told that creep off.


creep: Hey baby...I got somethin' in my pants that put a smile on that pretty little face...

Woman: Excuse me? What the f%$k did you just say to me?
Women in the vicinity who heard her yell: What the f$#k did you say to her you stupid, little sh!t...


I would love for the shouted phrase "Excuse me!" to be a war cry that would sumon every woman in the area to another woman's aid. Then we verbaly attack in a pack. If this became the norm, that would be f$#king awesome!!

But so many of are are so freshly woke and still so traumatized by rape culture that giving any suggestions to the vicitm still feels wrong. I feel like I'm still mostly at that point. It really wasn't until I read Alas and MM's comments and really thought them through that I can see beyond where I'm at in my feminist journey.

[alas]

Okay, I think I get where Alas an MM are coming from. We really do need to find ways to empower each other.

But I also think we are all at different stages of our feminist journeys. I am suuuper triggered by rape culture. When I first started reading alas's comments on the other thread I was like "wuuuut???" But I trust her, and I tried chill my triggered emotions, and I can see where she is coming from. I would love to hear examples of empowered immediate responses to sexual harassment. I would love for empowered immediate responses to a$$holes become the norm. I would love to read twitter and reddit threads where woman share what was said to them and then how they told that creep off.


creep: Hey baby...I got somethin' in my pants that put a smile on that pretty little face...

Woman: Excuse me? What the f%$k did you just say to me?
Women in the vicinity who heard her yell: What the f$#k did you say to her you stupid, little sh!t...


I would love for the shouted phrase "Excuse me!" to be a war cry that would sumon every woman in the area to another woman's aid. Then we verbaly attack in a pack. If this became the norm, that would be f$#king awesome!!

But so many of are are so freshly woke and still so traumatized by rape culture that giving any suggestions to the vicitm still feels wrong. I feel like I'm still mostly at that point. It really wasn't until I read Alas and MM's comments and really thought them through that I can see beyond where I'm at in my feminist journey.

And I appoligize for starting this conversation out so confused. I wasn’t sure why I felt like shaking the victim of harassment and screaming at her, “I thought you were a feminist. I thought you were an adult. Grow the hell up and grow some ovaries.”

I mean, what is wrong with me that I feel angry at the victim? I know she isn’t to blame for what happened or her reaction, so why am I angry at her reaction?

I mean, I am sooooooo schooled in exactly what Wonderment is saying that we don’t criticize the victim for what she did, what she said, what she wore. We don’t criticize her for being too traumatized to fight back. I understand being too traumatized to fight back. So, WHY was I angry with this one victim for not fighting back?

It took sometime thinking it over to figure out that I need more than understanding that it is never the victims fault, it is rape culture and patriarchy, it is fear and trauma that make it impossible to fight back.

But I NEED feminists to start fighting back. Not to just curl up in a blankey and say “it wasn’t my fault”. I need to know how to teach my Mormon grand daughters better than I was taught, and still not offend their TBM mother. I NEED to see and hear feminists fighting back, not just talking among ourselves or doing #metoo on Facebook. I need more from the feminist community than I am getting.

I feel like I have been a feminist for 60 years now, and some things have not changed, and I see young feminists with their enthusiasm and their “we are going to change the world” attitude, then I watch as they reinvent the wheel and criticize older feminists for not inventing the wheel, but we did silly. You just wanted to do it yourself because in your arrogance you think you know more than those of us who have been fighting this war for years. I feel like the old seasoned soldier feels when he sees the new young, stupid, recruits, still pingers,(*) and yet they think they know more than the general.

(*) “pingers,” a term used to describe those so new out of AF basic that their hair has not grown out yet, and makes a pinging sound as you run your hand over their head.

[Red Ryder]

For the record we are all still on planet earth. We just might see things differently from our collective life experiences.

Mopag I had this happen to me on a MARTA train in Atlanta once.

creep: Hey baby...I got somethin' in my pants that put a smile on that pretty little face...

Woman: Excuse me? What the f%$k did you just say to me?

Only it was a cracked out women who clearly was selling herself to anyone without risk management hurdles. Everyone just laughed at me when I was propositioned by this lady with three teeth.

I was embarrassed because everyone laughed. I was scared because I had no way to get away. The lady went on her way towards the back of the car.

When the train stopped and everyone was exiting, a regular passenger leaned in and said, "don't mind her, she's a regular feature on this commute. She's keenly aware of people who look scared and have never ridden the train before.

[Anon70]

Now contribute to the current conversation or go start your own.

I believe that I am contributing to the conversation. Please remain civil and respectful. Thank you, from Wndr.

No, you are having a conversation about “feminism 203: what rape culture teaches about responsibility” while I am trying to have a conversation which you ether are not even reading, or not comprehending about “feminism 605: what to teach our granddaughters.”

I will not bother responding to you again as we are on totally different planets. You do not know me, yet presume to judge.

Wow. I'd like to ask you to go back and read your lengthy, self proclaimed angry, all caps posts which clearly included judgments and criticisms of opposing views and then re-read Wonder's. No where has she attacked or lectured you. You cannot say the same. Your posts are indeed angry and combative and confrontational.

I am going to say to you what you said to her--please consider how it feels? I am not going to respond to you again. This read as -- you are invalid as you don't validate me and I'm not going to engage with anyone that doesn't get on my side.

I've genuinely tried to read your posts and offer a different view--respectfully. Can you honestly say the same?

[alas]

I believe that I am contributing to the conversation. Please remain civil and respectful. Thank you, from Wndr.

No, you are having a conversation about “feminism 203: what rape culture teaches about responsibility” while I am trying to have a conversation which you ether are not even reading, or not comprehending about “feminism 605: what to teach our granddaughters.”

I will not bother responding to you again as we are on totally different planets. You do not know me, yet presume to judge.

Wow. I'd like to ask you to go back and read your lengthy, self proclaimed angry, all caps posts which clearly included judgments and criticisms of opposing views and then re-read Wonder's. No where has she attacked or lectured you. You cannot say the same. Your posts are indeed angry and combative and confrontational.

I am going to say to you what you said to her--please consider how it feels? I am not going to respond to you again. This read as -- you are invalid as you don't validate me and I'm not going to engage with anyone that doesn't get on my side.

I've genuinely tried to read your posts and offer a different view--respectfully. Can you honestly say the same?

Yes, I was angry and I was triggered. *Then* I get terribly misunderstood and accused of being the kind of rape culture person who blames the victim for the man’s behavior. I explained that that was not at all what I was saying, but I kept getting told not to blame the victim for male behavior. I explained again, started a new thread, and explained AGAIN, that, no, I am not blaming her for HIS despicable behavior. I am angry at her for HER OWN behavior. But at the same time, I understand she is responding the only way she knows how. Go back and count the number of times I said I was not blaming her for his behavior and the number of times I said I understand exactly why she responded as she did.

But some of you were too caught up in your own emotional reaction to hear and understand mine. That is forgivable once or twice. But three or four times and I get pissy about it. The men on this forum finally got what I was angry about. Why the men? Because they were not blinded by their own emotions.

Yes, I was and am Angry. Angry at feeling so helpless because 60 years in and we are still fighting to earn the same as a man for the same type job, and fighting because men get promoted over the women who train them. This was why my long dead mother became a feminist. She was asked to train the man who was promoted from nobody, just because he was a man, over top of her because she was a woman. 1957. And here we are, in 2018, 61 years after my mother’s feminist awakening still doing the same damned thing. We just are not so Blatant about it.

And it is hard to have the kind of anger where there is nobody to blame it on, because we are all still fighting this same helpless war.

But, it isn’t progress that I needs as much as it is to see my sisters fight rather than turn and run like children. I have had this bubbling anger with no where to put it since Kate Kelly’s excommunication. Not because she was excommunicated, but because feminists turned and ran or laid down and cried. OK, I understand that. It was hard. But did we REALLY think there would be a different outcome? How naive. But when do we get back up and carry on. FMH just kind of died. No one has the energy to fight any more. We are tired. Well, buck up buttercup. You can’t afford to be tired. You got children, grandchildren, great grandchildren who need you to keep up the fight.

My first feminist melt down was in primary. I decided never to go any more because all the stories were about boys. I had an argument with a friend over it. That was my first experience with the idea that the real enemy is other women. I was trained in feminism from the time I was 5, long before Betty Friedan and The Feminist Mystique. So, yeah, sometimes I get impatient because it seems like all we do is have the same conversation over and over. New feminists come in and we have the same conversations over and over. I am tired too. Only we can’t just talk because that is safer than fighting.

I need more from feminism.

[alas]

And Wonder DID attack my by accusing me of victim blame.

[Anon70]

But some of you were too caught up in your own emotional reaction to hear and understand mine.

This is the double standard from you that I am speaking of. But, like you, I am now DONE.

[Red Ryder]

But some of you were too caught up in your own emotional reaction to hear and understand mine.

This is the double standard from you that I am speaking of. But, like you, I am now DONE.

Does this mean we all hug now?

[alas]

But some of you were too caught up in your own emotional reaction to hear and understand mine.

This is the double standard from you that I am speaking of. But, like you, I am now DONE.

That was stated as, I understand why you failed to even try to understand me. Not as further attack. I was once where you are. I understand being so tangled up in my own emotions that I can’t bother to even try to understand someone with different experience.

But, yeah, done with you too.

I would STILL like to talk about healthy responses to harassment? And how we muster the guts in the moment to respond assertively.

[alas]

But some of you were too caught up in your own emotional reaction to hear and understand mine.

This is the double standard from you that I am speaking of. But, like you, I am now DONE.

Does this mean we all hug now?

Nope, it means we stomped off to our bedrooms and slammed the door.

[Red Ryder]

This is the double standard from you that I am speaking of. But, like you, I am now DONE.

Does this mean we all hug now?

Nope, it means we stomped off to our bedrooms and slammed the door.

Hmpf.... Same thing happens at my house!

Joking aside, I've learned a lot from you ladies and your perspective. THANK YOU alas, Wondr, Anon70, crossmyheart, MoPag, and Merrie Miss!

I'm a baby feminist in embryo.

[Wonderment]

When the train stopped and everyone was exiting, a regular passenger leaned in and said, "don't mind her, she's a regular feature on this commute. She's keenly aware of people who look scared and have never ridden the train before.

Very important point, thank you, RR.

See, this is what Kirby did. He intentionally used a situation where he could catch a person off guard, proposition her, then watch amused as she struggled with her reaction. That's part of the sexual thrill. Kirby, a trusted "father figure" a "safe, kindly older gentleman" in the progressive Mo community all of a sudden completely acts out sexually towards someone 40 years his junior. He KNOWS that the shock value is important in carrying through the transaction.

Same thing with the woman on the train. She knows how to scout out victims and take advantage of them. Anonymous woman on the train all of a sudden acts out sexually toward man who is minding his own business and behaving in a regular manner. Part of the thrill with predators is watching the "mark" struggle with their emotional shock.

One time I was riding a bus in Mexico, dressed in traditional, modest conservative sister missionary clothing ( not on an official mission, but doing outreach work by tutoring kids in English), and a man climbed onto the bus, came right over and sat down next to me, then put his hand right up my dress. ( I was reading a book, and didn't notice immediately who sat down). I was very scared, but immediately turned sideways in the seat to confront him, and when I turned, it caused his hand to automatically pull out of my dress. He just laughed "Ha!", then ran and jumped off the bus.

Now, in the view of Alas, as she says, "How is he (she) supposed to know the victim doesn't want that, if the person doesn't say anything?"

That is what alerted me to this entire thread. Alas' comment that if the victim doesn't make exactly the right response, the perpetrator will continue acting out. This is on the Kirby thread. Alas' comment -- the perp will think the victim welcomes the assault or acting out, unless the victim immediately undertakes whatever action he or she did not do. It is on the other thread.

In Alas' view, Kendrick acted wrongly in her situation with Kirby, RR acted wrongly in his situation with the woman on the train, and I acted wrongly with my situation with the man on the bus --- because all of these perps assumed that their advances were welcome.

But unless people were raised by wolves in the forest ( including Kirby), they KNOW what traditional social manners and mores are. They just don't care -- including Kirby--- because they have no boundaries, and because part of their pleasure is springing the "shock value" on their victims. -- Wndr.

[alas]

YES, someone is at least saying she has been thinking about other ways to respond to harassment other than freezing, remaining silent, or reporting to unsympathetic officials. I just read a blog over at Segullah, where she recounts several instances of harassment and their less than satisfactory outcomes, and then says she is starting to think about other ways of responding.

I left the following comment

I have recently tried to have a conversation about other ways to respond to harassment other than freezing, looking down, saying nothing, or reporting after the fact. I got shot down by feminists who think “it wasn’t your fault” is the only conversation needed, and I was repeatedly told that I was “blaming the victim.”

I think it is time for feminists to already know it is never the victims fault and, well, yes, if there is a victim who is blaming herself or wondering what she did or said to make the guy think she was open to inappropriate sexual comments or unwanted sexual advances, well we assure her it was not her fault. But for the most part, don’t we know that male behavior starts with the male, and can’t we move onto another conversation about how not to reward or reinforce that male behavior.

We feminists have had this conversation with flashers. They are looking to shock and scare us. They think our being scared is related to them being a big macho male and they feel powerful. So, if we act bored to see an exposed male member, or comment in a way that takes their power away, then we do not reward their behavior. So, not reacting is better in this case than running in fear. Telling him that you have seen better is an even better response, because it deflates his ego.

We can still report of course, but often reporting does no good. The police simply don’t find it worth their time unless we can identify the man or there have been multiple cases with the same perp.

I was in high school when I encountered a flasher. I was in the same relatively isolated spot, the same time every day, and for several days this young man had been too. But then he flashed me. I looked at him and shrugged my shoulders. I didn’t want to say anything because I had male class mates that were most likely within ear shot. He visibly deflated, like a balloon with a leek, he just kind of shriveled. I never saw him again, so I’m guessing my response at least did not reward his behavior so he would be more likely to repeat.

But I have never heard a conversation on how women can handle sexual comments or harassment in ways that empower women and take the power away from the harasser. Sure, it might be more complicated than a stranger flashing. But I would still like a conversation about how women can respond in various situations that does not reward the harasser, but teaches them that their joke, their comment, their talking about sex was not appreciated and that we will not put up with that kind of behavior.

So, anyway, I am going to be paying attention to that conversation. And I outed my identity in the rest of the bloggernackle with my identity here, but whatever.

[Fifi de la Vergne]

But I have never heard a conversation on how women can handle sexual comments or harassment in ways that empower women and take the power away from the harasser. Sure, it might be more complicated than a stranger flashing. But I would still like a conversation about how women can respond in various situations that does not reward the harasser, but teaches them that their joke, their comment, their talking about sex was not appreciated and that we will not put up with that kind of behavior.

I want to have this conversation too. As a very young adult, I had a similar experience (with a groper not a flasher) working in the older downtown of a metro area. One of the older women in our office came back from a lunchtime walk and reported that a guy had come up to her and knelt, telling her that she had something on her skirt and then reached up inside the skirt to grope her. She told us about how she was so stunned that she basically froze, while we all commiserated and exclaimed -- it happened in broad daylight! on a public street! and he just walked away from it while she came back to the office feeling violated, shamed, and guilty for letting it happen.

A few days later I was out walking and was approached by (must have been) the same guy. Only I was prepared because of the other woman's experience and when he reached for my skirt I hissed at him that if he so much as touched me I was going to scream. He drew back with his hands in the air.

I have thought a lot about this during the #metoo conversations. I feel like there's a couple of things, if we could somehow extrapolate them, that would be helpful.
-- because the older woman had shared her experience, I was forewarned and knew before he even got close that this guy was bad news
-- and that gave me the courage to speak up instead of freezing, even though I hadn't consciously rehearsed what I would do in that situation
-- I came away feeling grateful to the other woman and empowered

I read somewhere that one of the most important things women can learn in self-defense classes is to not be afraid to draw attention to themselves. If someone threatens them, they need to yell and scream and make a scene. It's a really hard thing to do because it runs counter to all the other conditioning we receive -- but it's so important that (in the program I was reading about anyway) the women had to practice it.

Somehow we have to counter the conditioning in other situations too -- teach our friends and our daughters (and ourselves!) that it's OKAY to draw attention to the fact that someone is being inappropriate. And when a woman does that, we ALL, women and men, can support her and not shame her for "making a scene". We need to get more comfortable with that potential social discomfort. Women disproportionately bear the responsiblity for making people feel comfortable -- but they should know that when someone's being a jerk they don't have to make him feel okay about it.

And on the Robert Kirby thing -- I'm not sure what I think about that. I'm not sure that she handled the situation the best she could have, but when people protest that he shouldn't be subjected to social shaming I think to myself -- but that's what he did to her. He subjected her to shame very publicly, and of course it would have been better not to wait so long to bring it up . . . but if he didn't mind acting that way in public why should there be an issue with letting the public know he did it? Why do we care so much more about his feelings now than about hers then? But then I argue with myself.

And finally I end up with Alas, wondering what we can do to empower women and improve outcomes going forward.

[trophywife26.2]

Wow. This conversation was super intense. I am so glad I had a chance to read it because I learned so much. Fifi you added some really amazing and useful insight about handling these situations. I can clearly see why you would have so much fatigue from seeing the same situations play out over and over through the years alas. Wonderment my feelings tend to follow your line of thinking about getting my hackles up a bit on an instinctual level if a victim is facing criticism, but I know it really is important to talk about what we can do to create real change. It seems like at first it was hard for me (and maybe wonder?) to read alas' points clearly because there are so many emotions running high on all sides.

I am trying harder and harder to be more philosophical about feminist issues and see what can actually do to create progress and no longer be paralyzed by anger. Even though this conversation had real intensity I think there was a lot of learning that happened. Maybe alas and wonder aren't in agreement or even at peace with this thread, but this was a public conversation women and men could read and stimulate their own thinking and growth.

I don't know where we go from here next or how we fix all this. I don't know Courtney's motivations, but I am sorry she had this experience. And I'm even more sorry this is an experience all women can relate to on some level or another and multiplied. I've enjoyed a lot of Robert Kirby's columns, but his column about Mckenna Denson was frankly infuriating. I do think we need to be aware of how we can be judge, jury, and executioner via social media, and that is problematic but I don't know what the better way to handle things are in this current political state.

I feel like women have gone through the proper channels for many years and we've spent time yelling into the void. I think the truth is women are desperate for change and this is part of the repercussions of our current situation.

This podcast was fascinating to me that I listened to this week. https://www.npr.org/2018/02/05/58269811 ... ding-metoo They mentioned the concept of horizontal violence. Women are so infuriated by the election of Trump who has openly acknowledged sexually assaulting women, but we cannot knock the one down from the top so we take all that rage and knock people out from the side who are within our reach horizontally.

What do you think friends?

[Wonderment]

What do you think friends?

TW, thanks for weighing in on this topic -- always glad to read your thoughts.

99 % of the time, I agree with Alas. And, I've been agreeing w/ her for the past 9 years here.

So, one point of disagreement in the past 9 years is a very good track record.

I too was upset w/ Kirby's column on McKenna Denson. As for Kirby's horrible behavior at Sunstone - If Sunstone can continue financially ( and I hope it does), Kirby should never be invited back. So disappointing. JMO -- Wndr.