The Standard of Truth?

[RubinHighlander]

Did you see this announcement by the COB?

https://www.ksl.com/article/46385938/th ... n-88-years

According to Quentin...

“It will allow them to go back through the digital version and get to actual church history (and documents),” Elder Cook told KSL.com. “We think it will be foundational for them as they’re trying to learn things — that they’ll get true accounts, that they’ll get actual facts.”

Actual facts...eh? Does anyone here really think the COB is going transparent now? I'm guessing it's just riddled with half truths mingled with apologetic rhetoric. I don't plan to read it but perhaps our more zealous historians here will rip it a new one.

[wtfluff]

Haha.

Quentin Crook is not only a crook, but a comedian too!

I'm with you Rubin: The Corporation has had almost 200 years to be honest, and so far they have been incapable of simply telling the truth. The entire narrative is based on gaslighting, lies and half-truths. For some strange reason I doubt that the spin in this shiny new book will be any different.

[Red Ryder]

Can you say inoculation?

Elder Quentin L. Cook, another member of the church's Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, said he hopes this series will specifically give the youth of the church context to some controversial, but incomplete, facts they may have learned about the church online or through social media.

The church loves to whine about being misunderstood.

[Rob4Hope]

Its smoke and mirrors.

Remember that the history the early leadership kept was sanitized and re-written after the fact, over and over. It makes it "faith promoting".

It would be nice if they published some REAL history from ... ummm...say...the Kinderhook days?

Yeh right.

[Arcturus]

I can't wait to cozy up next to one of my dear friends in a park and read together from this amazing new book - as portrayed in the church's email announcing the book. So excited! #blessed #testimony #exactobedience

[Red Ryder]

Here's the books part on Fanny Alger.

“During the years Joseph lived in Kirtland, a young woman named Fanny Alger worked in the Smith home. Joseph knew her family well and trusted them. Her parents were faithful Saints who had joined the church in its first year. Her uncle, Levi Hancock, had marched in the Camp of Israel.

Following the Lord’s command, Joseph proposed marriage to Fanny with the help of Levi and the approval of her parents. Fanny accepted Joseph’s teachings and his proposal, and her uncle performed the ceremony.

Since the time had not come to teach plural marriage in the church, Joseph and Fanny kept their marriage private, as the angel had instructed. But rumors spread among some people in Kirtland. By the fall of 1836, Fanny had moved away.

Oliver was deeply critical of Joseph’s relationship with Fanny, although how much he knew about it is unclear. What Emma knew about the marriage is also uncertain. In time, Fanny married another man and lived apart from the main body of the Saints. Later in life, she received a letter from her brother asking about her plural marriage to Joseph.

“That is all a matter of our own,” Fanny wrote back, “and I have nothing to communicate.””

How can the uncle perform the ceremony? Does he have the proper priesthood authority? If so, when and where was that conveyed? Wouldn't such a big event in the restoration of the gospel been documented somewhere?

The part about Emma being uncertain is also an attempt to avoid the details. Why do the Mormons not know, yet outsiders and ex-Mormons know?

From http://mit.irr.org/joseph-smith-and-fanny-alger

There are other reasons to doubt that anyone considered Joseph’s relationship with Fanny at the time as a marriage. For one thing, Emma threw Fanny out of their house when she found out about it. How she found out is also uncertain, since the reports in this regard are also somewhat late and secondhand. Most likely she discovered them in the act (two reports had her seeing them through a crack in a barn door). A less likely explanation is that Emma found out that Fanny was pregnant; however, there is no evidence that such a pregnancy occurred. In any case, it is clear that Emma did not consider the relationship a marriage.5 In fact, the evidence shows that Joseph did not even try to tell Emma that his sexual activity with Fanny was part of a plural marriage, since he never told her about plural marriages until 1842 or 1843.6 The LDS.org article ignores this fact even as it comments in generalities about “Emma’s reactions to plural marriage.”

[Not Buying It]

“Well, we tried to keep our members from finding out about this stuff, but now thanks to that pesky internet the best we can do is put out a book that tries to put a positive spin on everything”.

Don’t try and sound like you are doing members a favor by being “transparent”. This really disgusts me - they hid and dissembled and deceived about “portions of the church’s history that have been overlooked or misunderstood”, and now want to make it sound like they are being straight with us.

I couldn’t trust them before when they were hiding stuff from me, why do they think I would trust them now that they’ve figured out hiding the skeletons in the closet doesn’t work anymore?

[RubinHighlander]

I can't wait to cozy up next to one of my dear friends in a park and read together from this amazing new book - as portrayed in the church's email announcing the book. So excited! #blessed #testimony #exactobedience

Because those teens would much rather have that awesome analogue experience than have their faces in FB or IG on their phones! Que the new youth programs to get your super special award for reading all the new propaganda. As the Q15 stand up in conference and continue to preach about the transparency of their religion that came out of a top hat: "Nothing up my sleeve, presto!" I think I'll follow the white rabbit instead.

[RubinHighlander]

“Well, we tried to keep our members from finding out about this stuff, but now thanks to that pesky internet the best we can do is put out a book that tries to put a positive spin on everything”.

And they might have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for those meddling kids!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbXxgQLlF08

[jfro18]

I don't know why them putting "The Standard of Truth" triggers me so much, but it really, really makes my blood boil.

Is there *any* contemporary proof that the Fanny Alger thing was anything but an affair?

I assume that Saints doesn't cover how Joseph never used the gold plates? How there were no Urim and Thummim and that all of the "eyewitness accounts" of there being one are different.

Or how the Nauvoo Expositor was accurate in their issue that caused Joseph to torch the press?

I know they have to be faith promoting, but putting "The Standard of Truth" on a book that continues to whitewash their historical lies and scriptural problems just drives me nuts because my spouse will read that and go "A-ha! I knew my husband was just buying into vicious lies..."

And I'm trying so hard not to bring this stuff up as her parents are about to leave everyone behind to go on a second senior mission, but the church is making that really difficult.

[Corsair]

Is there *any* contemporary proof that the Fanny Alger thing was anything but an affair?

A couple of years ago Bill Reel interviewed Brian Hales on the trickier aspects of plural marriage. At that time Bill Reel was still earnestly trying to make this all work. I doubt that Brian Hales would agree to an additional interview with Bill at this point.

Brian's argument was that clearly Joseph must have had some authority granted to him from God to perform this marriage. No, he did not have any secular authority to perform a marriage, but God's authority would trump any secular authority. And no, we don't have a record of the revelation that would have given authority to Joseph Smith.

This was an infuriating explanation to me. This kind of excuse would provide cover just about any action performed on behalf of a religious leader. "God told me I should do this" is a terrible explanation and I am appalled whenever I see this used rather than something that can be tested and objectively evaluated.

[lostinmiddlemormonism]

The standard of truth...snort

In The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints the standard of truth is a pretty low bar.

Facts, Evidence, Logic, Common-sense, Rationality, Documentation are irrelevant. So long as it feels "truthy" it is. Even (please note the correct usage of this word Mormons) if it isn't really true. This is the church that has an apostle who said some truth isn't very useful. Left unstated was the corollary: a lot of half-truths, faith promoting lies, and dissections are VERY useful.

-lost

[deacon blues]

The Church tries to make Joseph's revelations seem official and unrelated to his personal will, but I'm reminded of an incident that took place with William Clayton (of Come Come Ye Saints fame.) William was married to the Moon sisters, Ruth and Margaret. He was also interested in a third Moon sister, Lydia. On Sept 15, 1843, Joseph explained to William:
"President Joseph told me he had lately had a new item of law revealed to him in relation to myself. He said the Lord had revealed to him that a man could only take 2 of a family except by express revelation and as I had said I intended to take Lydia he made this known for my benefit. To have more than two in a family was apt to cause wrangles and trouble. He finally asked if I would not give L[ydia] to him. I said I would so far as I had anything to do in it. He requested me to talk to her." (Clayton, "An Intimate Chronicle," p. 120)
William was obedient:
Sept. 17, Sun.-- At home all day with M[argaret]. I had some talk with Lydia. she seems to receive it kindly but says she has promised her mother not to marry while her mother lives and she thinks she won't. (Clayton, "An Intimate Chronicle, p. 120)
Joseph's offhanded, self-accommodating way of receiving revelation is typical.

[Hagoth]

I the story starts with Joseph seeing Elohim and Jehovah in the grove and getting the priesthood from angels, rather than having those stories develop over the following decade or two you can be certain the whole thing is pretty much a big lie with just enough unpleasant truth sprinkled in to allow them to make a general claim of transparency.

I hope the kids read it and have some huge WTF moments anyway.

[Rob4Hope]

BAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA........

Sorry. Just finished reading the title and whole thread.

[rockslider]

I wonder if they covered JS getting tarred and feathered?

JS could never keep his hands off of the girls. It's kind of unfortunate that the doctor they brought along chickened out.

If you have lots of walk/drive time and like to listen to podcasts, these are a pretty good look at the history of the church

Naked Mormonism

[Palerider]

Here's the books part on Fanny Alger.

“During the years Joseph lived in Kirtland, a young woman named Fanny Alger worked in the Smith home. Joseph knew her family well and trusted them. Her parents were faithful Saints who had joined the church in its first year. Her uncle, Levi Hancock, had marched in the Camp of Israel.

Following the Lord’s command, ( No record of this command/revelation happening at this time whatsoever) Joseph proposed marriage to Fanny with the help of Levi and the approval of her parents (I'd like to see the record of her parents approval). Fanny accepted Joseph’s teachings and his proposal, and her uncle performed the ceremony. (As I understand it this is something Levi's son happened to remember in his old age that maybe his father had told him. Very dubious.)

Since the time had not come to teach plural marriage in the church, Joseph and Fanny kept their marriage private, as the angel had instructed.( Nowhere do we have a record of the angel telling Joseph to keep plural marriage a secret that I have seen.) But rumors spread among some people in Kirtland. By the fall of 1836, Fanny had moved away.(Bull...Joseph arranged for her removal from Nauvoo in order to keep Emma from leaving him.)


Oliver was deeply critical of Joseph’s relationship with Fanny, although how much he knew about it is unclear. What Emma knew about the marriage is also uncertain. (According to the book Mormon Enigma, Oliver was called upon by Joseph to help calm Emma down after she threw Joseph out of the house. They both knew the details of Joseph's infidelity.) In time, Fanny married another man and lived apart from the main body of the Saints. Later in life, she received a letter from her brother asking about her plural marriage to Joseph.

“That is all a matter of our own,” Fanny wrote back, “and I have nothing to communicate.””

How can the uncle perform the ceremony? Does he have the proper priesthood authority? If so, when and where was that conveyed? Wouldn't such a big event in the restoration of the gospel been documented somewhere? (If the uncle did in fact perform the ceremony which is doubtful, it would have been for time only since the supposed sealing powers had not yet been restored. Further, it would not have been recognized by the state since he had no legal authority to perform the marriage. This is all totally bogus.)

The part about Emma being uncertain is also an attempt to avoid the details. Why do the Mormons not know, yet outsiders and ex-Mormons know?

From http://mit.irr.org/joseph-smith-and-fanny-alger

Another question.

According to D&C, Joseph had to receive Emma's approval BEFORE marrying Fanny. Considering Emma's reaction to catching Joseph in flagrante delicto in the barn do we really believe Joseph ran this by her and she said, "Sure Joey boy, go right ahead...."???

Get real...

If the rest of the book follows suit the whole thing will be a stinky load of crap. These guys should be ashamed but I think they're incapable...

[nibbler]

I couldn’t trust them before when they were hiding stuff from me, why do they think I would trust them now that they’ve figured out hiding the skeletons in the closet doesn’t work anymore?

It's not about you, it's about inoculating the rising generation. They've written you off.

The name of the book alone is propaganda. The Standard of Truth. It's just like any other source of information, it has a heavy bias.

[Not Buying It]

I couldn’t trust them before when they were hiding stuff from me, why do they think I would trust them now that they’ve figured out hiding the skeletons in the closet doesn’t work anymore?

It's not about you, it's about inoculating the rising generation. They've written you off.

The name of the book alone is propaganda. The Standard of Truth. It's just like any other source of information, it has a heavy bias.

Very true. The Church has made it abundantly clear it has given up on those of us who aren’t willing to just accept their spin. Not just given up on us either - demonized and villianized us.

[Palerider]

I couldn’t trust them before when they were hiding stuff from me, why do they think I would trust them now that they’ve figured out hiding the skeletons in the closet doesn’t work anymore?

It's not about you, it's about inoculating the rising generation. They've written you off.

The name of the book alone is propaganda. The Standard of Truth. It's just like any other source of information, it has a heavy bias.

Very true. The Church has made it abundantly clear it has given up on those of us who aren’t willing to just accept their spin. Not just given up on us either - demonized and villianized us.

But if you were to miraculously do a turn about and declare how the spirit brought you back to believing they'd have you in LDS Living so fast it would make your head spin. I can see it now:

"How Satan led me astray with anti-mormon lies but something Russell M. Nelson said brought me back."