McKenna Bears Testimony in Bishop's Ward

[Stig]

Not a fan of this stunt either. Not sure what it accomplished. I support McKenna 100% in her battle with the church and she deserves justice for what she had gone through but this does nothing for her cause. I really didn't like the mocking tone of the first part of this video. To me it just makes light of this whole situation and was in poor taste.

+1 I don't think this serves her well, at all.

[Not Buying It]

Part of my issue with McKenna’s testimony meeting incident is that there are a ton of little kids in the audience who have no idea what is going on and have now been exposed to words like “sexual predator” and “rapist” that the are really too young to process. Now they should absolutely know the concept that no one should be in their personal space, but these are words that are really beyond them at a young age. And you can try and say they weren’t listening, but I can guarantee everybody in that chapel was transfixed once they tried to remove her.

The other part of my issue is just basic respect for people who are just trying to worship in the way they believe is right. It’s boorish behavior to go into someone else’s worship service and be disruptive. However slimy, deceptive, and manipulative the Church is, those who worship in its buildings should be able to do so without harassment or disruption.

Two wrongs do not a right make. McKenna has been grievously wronged by the Church and the sexual predator it protected, but this incident has not served justice in any way. Sure it is picking up some press, but I am not convinced the ends justify the means in this case.

[Hagoth]

Whether or not this was a wise move in the long run I find it hard to judge McKenna because I was not raped by my mission president, then swept under the rug by general authorities, had the police called on ME to protect the perpetrator from my actions, been called a liar and lunatic by my local church leaders, had the police reports hidden and redacted by orders of the church who also hired research lawyers to dig up dirt on me while protecting the person who assaulted me, all while the the statute of limitations clock was slowly running out.

ETA: The ONLY consequences Bishop has had for his actions over the past 30-whatever years was to be exposed and embarrassed by McKenna. Something is better than nothing.

[AllieOop]

Whether or not this was a wise move in the long run I find it hard to judge McKenna because I was not raped by my mission president, then swept under the rug by general authorities, had the police called on ME to protect the perpetrator from my actions, been called a liar and lunatic by my local church leaders, had the police reports hidden and redacted by orders of the church who also hired research lawyers to dig up dirt on me while protecting the person who assaulted me, all while the the statute of limitations clock was slowly running out.

I agree. Plus we don't know if he's resigned or is still a member in good standing. There was a rumor that he'd resigned that was not confirmed (as far as I know). What we do know is that there was never a disciplinary counsel held for him over the years. He was protected by the church leaders.

I'm not a fan of what was done in testimony meeting, but I do understand why she did it. I also wish she hadn't hooked up with Mike Norton and acted like she did with him in the beginning of the video.

[Not Buying It]

Whether or not this was a wise move in the long run I find it hard to judge McKenna because I was not raped by my mission president, then swept under the rug by general authorities, had the police called on ME to protect the perpetrator from my actions, been called a liar and lunatic by my local church leaders, had the police reports hidden and redacted by orders of the church who also hired research lawyers to dig up dirt on me while protecting the person who assaulted me, all while the the statute of limitations clock was slowly running out.

ETA: The ONLY consequences Bishop has had for his actions over the past 30-whatever years was to be exposed and embarrassed by McKenna. Something is better than nothing.

Perhaps I have come across as too harsh and judgmental of someone who has been through something I have not been through and cannot even of conceive of - that is not my intention, and I apologize to anyone who may have taken it that way. It is not my place to criticize the actions of someone who has been through something like that, and I want to be compassionate and understanding. If you are reading this, McKenna, you have my apologies, I have no right to judge how you respond to your situation.

However, I am uncomfortable with all of the high fives this is getting here and on Reddit. Endorsing the disruption of LDS worship services is not a road I believe the disaffected want to go down. The actions of a rape victim is not something I should have criticized, and I will freely admit I was wrong to do so. But celebrating the disruption of a worship service is not something I am comfortable with either. While it is true there is no official channel for concerns to be expressed in the Church, inflicting the collateral damage of infringing the rights of our brothers and sisters to worship in their chapels in peace is not the way to address the lack of a feedback mechanism, as has been suggested by some.

[wtfluff]

While it is true there is no official channel for concerns to be expressed in the Church, inflicting the collateral damage of infringing the rights of our brothers and sisters to worship in their chapels in peace is not the way to address the lack of a feedback mechanism, as has been suggested by some.

Just curious NBI, in your opinion: What is they way to address the lack of a feedback mechanism?

[Emower]

While it is true there is no official channel for concerns to be expressed in the Church, inflicting the collateral damage of infringing the rights of our brothers and sisters to worship in their chapels in peace is not the way to address the lack of a feedback mechanism, as has been suggested by some.

Just curious NBI, in your opinion: What is they way to address the lack of a feedback mechanism?

Bringing up issues in a graceful, dignified way, as she has done previously and continues to do with the lawsuit, and then voting with your feet and your money. Address it in your circles the best way you can. That seems to be the best way to me.

[Not Buying It]

While it is true there is no official channel for concerns to be expressed in the Church, inflicting the collateral damage of infringing the rights of our brothers and sisters to worship in their chapels in peace is not the way to address the lack of a feedback mechanism, as has been suggested by some.

Just curious NBI, in your opinion: What is they way to address the lack of a feedback mechanism?

Bringing up issues in a graceful, dignified way, as she has done previously and continues to do with the lawsuit, and then voting with your feet and your money. Address it in your circles the best way you can. That seems to be the best way to me.

I like Emower's response. Also, Sam Young has done a great job without disrupting anyone's worship service. Kate Kelly and others requesting entrance to Priesthood Meeting was another one - they didn't disrupt the service, they just asked to be admitted. Petitions, protests like Sam's, letters to the editor, Facebook posts, there are all kinds of ways to make your point without interfering with someone else's right to worship. I even support those who vote opposed in General Conference - if they don't want members voting opposed, then the Brethren shouldn't pretend like it's an option. But those who oppose don't disrupt the rest of the meeting after they have voted opposed.

Disrupting a local Church service hurts local members who are just there trying to worship way more than it hurts the Brethren. Brother Jones and Sister Johnson ought to be able to go worship at a testimony meeting without it becoming a publicity stunt. We don't like it when someone comes barging into NOM trying to preach the restored gospel to us (and if you've been around long enough, you know it has happened).

Not criticizing McKenna, just sayin' I hope others don't get the idea that Testimony Meeting is a great place to air your discontent.

[Hagoth]

Also, Sam Young has done a great job without disrupting anyone's worship service. Kate Kelly and others requesting entrance to Priesthood Meeting was another one - they didn't disrupt the service, they just asked to be admitted. Petitions, protests like Sam's, letters to the editor, Facebook posts, there are all kinds of ways to make your point without interfering with someone else's right to worship.

Good point, and something you can be sure of is that no matter what you do publicly the church will very likely respond in the most bone-headed way imaginable.

Question: "Here are some very touching firsthand accounts of children who have been damaged by harmful actions. Will you please read them?"
Response: "Don't touch the building."

Question: "Can we come in and listen to the words of the prophet?"
Response: "Make room for the garbage truck."

[alas]

I don’t know if I agree with those saying that disrupting a worship service is going too far. McKenna “played nice” for so long the statute of limitations ran out. The church counts on victims playing nice, keeping quiet, being sweet. That s what good victims do. Fathers who rape their daughters are the same way. They count of the daughter not getting out of their parental control. They count of the child’s love for them not to do anything that will get daddy sent to prison. I think there comes a time when it is appropriate to get nasty with those who want the victim to stay a good victim. There is a time to shout it from the rooftops and even if little children ask some tough questions, well, the best way to prevent that to to take care of the crime properly when it occurs.

Some of you are saying that you can’t judge because you have not been through it. Well, I have been through similar crap, and I think it is high time that the church got embarrassed in a very public way. If that takes disrupting somebody else’s comfort, tough shit. People SHOULD be allowed to worship in peace. But even more than that a Church should remove those in power who use that power to rape others. If the church fails to protect those in its care, then maybe the cost is that some people do not get to worship in peace. The church is still the guilty party who needs its behavior shouted from the rooftops until mothers will not allow their daughters to go on missions, OR the church changes from hiding crime to punishing crime.

Maybe it does not help her case. But maybe the money of the case is not what is important. The most important thing is forcing the church to hold sexual perpetrators accountable, and the only way to do that is to hold the church accountable. The church shames the victim into silence while hiding the crimes of the criminal. That right there is criminal behavior. Mothers who hide the fact that their husband is molesting the kids are held accountable. I saw mothers who knew what was going on and did not protect their children get jail time, and permanently lose custody f their children. I was therapist in a group for mother’s and one sat there whining that she had done nothing wrong and why was she punished? Well, failure to protect those who cannot protect themselves was her job as mother. It is a crime to know a crime is taking place and do nothing. Makes you an accomplice when you don’t rob the bank but do drive the get away car to help the criminals escape. The church committed a crime and is whining about being held accountable. Boohoo.

Did she accomplish any thing with this “stunt”? Well, if his stake president is now aware that the man is a sexual predator, then yes. Because the church certainly did not tell the stake president. So, yes, she accomplished something if an authority over creep now knows he is a creep.

And yes Sam got some publicity without disrupting worship services. But then he was not one of the victims either. He is the hero standing up for the victims. He is male and in this church males get listened to more than females, so, ya’ll are comparing apples and oranges and blaming the victim for doing what you don’t think you would do.

Me, well, yeah, I was very tempted to stand up in my father’s ward and tell them just what a creep my father was. But I don’t have McKenna’s guts.

[wtfluff]

Just curious NBI, in your opinion: What is they way to address the lack of a feedback mechanism?

Bringing up issues in a graceful, dignified way, as she has done previously and continues to do with the lawsuit, and then voting with your feet and your money. Address it in your circles the best way you can. That seems to be the best way to me.

I like Emower's response. Also, Sam Young has done a great job without disrupting anyone's worship service. Kate Kelly and others requesting entrance to Priesthood Meeting was another one - they didn't disrupt the service, they just asked to be admitted. Petitions, protests like Sam's, letters to the editor, Facebook posts, there are all kinds of ways to make your point without interfering with someone else's right to worship. I even support those who vote opposed in General Conference - if they don't want members voting opposed, then the Brethren shouldn't pretend like it's an option. But those who oppose don't disrupt the rest of the meeting after they have voted opposed.

Sorry, but the cynic in me is forcing my fingers to type: In both of the cases of Kate Kelly and Sam Young, how has the "feedback mechanism" been changed? Their requests have basically been ignored. Kate has been ex-ed, and it's more than likely that Sam will meet the same fate in 4 days.

Even though they "tried something different," it hasn't worked.

[jfro18]

I think the mixed reactions in this thread show how everything is thinking of this in different terms...

For her legal case, this seems like a bad idea.

For her changing the minds of TBMs, this was a bad idea.

For her getting her story out there, this was a good idea.

So I guess it comes down to what you personally are thinking about - for me I really don't like the video effectively looking like a setup from the start, even though I know that she has been bullied by the church and silenced. So I *get* why she did it, but I don't think the outcome is going to do anything but keep TBMs retrenched and disbelieving towards her story.

I guarantee my wife saw this story, and I guarantee that she agreed with whoever wrote it that it was distasteful and that "anti-Mormons" are becoming more desperate.

I'd rather stick with the facts about why the church is such a trainwreck from the beginning, but just like McKenna... no one is willing to listen. So I *get* why she did it... just not sure it was the best idea if the idea is to bring actual change to the church or getting Joseph Bishop finally punished by the church for what he did.

Long winded reply... I just am so frustrated that it's come to this because the church would rather protect the men than admit they allowed a sexual predator to run a mission training center where so many vulnerable young adults rely on them.

[Not Buying It]

Bringing up issues in a graceful, dignified way, as she has done previously and continues to do with the lawsuit, and then voting with your feet and your money. Address it in your circles the best way you can. That seems to be the best way to me.

I like Emower's response. Also, Sam Young has done a great job without disrupting anyone's worship service. Kate Kelly and others requesting entrance to Priesthood Meeting was another one - they didn't disrupt the service, they just asked to be admitted. Petitions, protests like Sam's, letters to the editor, Facebook posts, there are all kinds of ways to make your point without interfering with someone else's right to worship. I even support those who vote opposed in General Conference - if they don't want members voting opposed, then the Brethren shouldn't pretend like it's an option. But those who oppose don't disrupt the rest of the meeting after they have voted opposed.

Sorry, but the cynic in me is forcing my fingers to type: In both of the cases of Kate Kelly and Sam Young, how has the "feedback mechanism" been changed? Their requests have basically been ignored. Kate has been ex-ed, and it's more than likely that Sam will meet the same fate in 4 days.

Even though they "tried something different," it hasn't worked.

This won’t either. The response from the Brethren to this will not be in any way more meaningful than their response to Kate Kelly and Sam Young.

[rockslider]

However, I am uncomfortable with all of the high fives this is getting here and on Reddit. Endorsing the disruption of LDS worship services is not a road I believe the disaffected want to go down. The actions of a rape victim is not something I should have criticized, and I will freely admit I was wrong to do so. But celebrating the disruption of a worship service is not something I am comfortable with either. While it is true there is no official channel for concerns to be expressed in the Church, inflicting the collateral damage of infringing the rights of our brothers and sisters to worship in their chapels in peace is not the way to address the lack of a feedback mechanism, as has been suggested by some.

Perhaps standing out front, on public sidewalks with a protestor type of sign would have been better. Getting several to join in with a pre-media notice might have been more effective as well.

I'm not opposed to her standing up in testimony, just the NNN showoff pre-show was way below her historical presence.

[Anon70]

I don’t know if I agree with those saying that disrupting a worship service is going too far. McKenna “played nice” for so long the statute of limitations ran out. The church counts on victims playing nice, keeping quiet, being sweet. That s what good victims do. Fathers who rape their daughters are the same way. They count of the daughter not getting out of their parental control. They count of the child’s love for them not to do anything that will get daddy sent to prison. I think there comes a time when it is appropriate to get nasty with those who want the victim to stay a good victim. There is a time to shout it from the rooftops and even if little children ask some tough questions, well, the best way to prevent that to to take care of the crime properly when it occurs.

Some of you are saying that you can’t judge because you have not been through it. Well, I have been through similar crap, and I think it is high time that the church got embarrassed in a very public way. If that takes disrupting somebody else’s comfort, tough shit. People SHOULD be allowed to worship in peace. But even more than that a Church should remove those in power who use that power to rape others. If the church fails to protect those in its care, then maybe the cost is that some people do not get to worship in peace. The church is still the guilty party who needs its behavior shouted from the rooftops until mothers will not allow their daughters to go on missions, OR the church changes from hiding crime to punishing crime.

Maybe it does not help her case. But maybe the money of the case is not what is important. The most important thing is forcing the church to hold sexual perpetrators accountable, and the only way to do that is to hold the church accountable. The church shames the victim into silence while hiding the crimes of the criminal. That right there is criminal behavior. Mothers who hide the fact that their husband is molesting the kids are held accountable. I saw mothers who knew what was going on and did not protect their children get jail time, and permanently lose custody f their children. I was therapist in a group for mother’s and one sat there whining that she had done nothing wrong and why was she punished? Well, failure to protect those who cannot protect themselves was her job as mother. It is a crime to know a crime is taking place and do nothing. Makes you an accomplice when you don’t rob the bank but do drive the get away car to help the criminals escape. The church committed a crime and is whining about being held accountable. Boohoo.

Did she accomplish any thing with this “stunt”? Well, if his stake president is now aware that the man is a sexual predator, then yes. Because the church certainly did not tell the stake president. So, yes, she accomplished something if an authority over creep now knows he is a creep.

And yes Sam got some publicity without disrupting worship services. But then he was not one of the victims either. He is the hero standing up for the victims. He is male and in this church males get listened to more than females, so, ya’ll are comparing apples and oranges and blaming the victim for doing what you don’t think you would do.

Me, well, yeah, I was very tempted to stand up in my father’s ward and tell them just what a creep my father was. But I don’t have McKenna’s guts.

Thanks for having the guts to share all of this. I appreciate the perspective.

[blazerb]

Perhaps standing out front, on public sidewalks with a protestor type of sign would have been better. Getting several to join in with a pre-media notice might have been more effective as well.

I'm not opposed to her standing up in testimony, just the NNN showoff pre-show was way below her historical presence.

This would have been pretty disruptive of a worship service as well. I don't know what will get the attention of the Q15. I know a Title IX investigation caused some changes at the BYU's, not enough but some. I think our leaders only pay attention to investigations by outside authorities. Quiet comments to our bishops go nowhere. Letters to SLC get sent back to the SP. Protests are cast as disrespectful to the worshipers. Voting opposed is publicly scorned and still goes nowhere. Lawsuits get NDA's. Hardly anyone has the legal resources that the church has. Members have no meaningful way to voice concerns. I don't know what McKenna should have done. I hope it did not damage her legal case.

[consiglieri]

Just got to work and saw the story, complete with photograph, on the MSN main page.

I tried to copy it here but was unable. I did screenshot it though.

The MSN webpage links to The Washington Post story that went up at 3:14 this morning.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor ... ca98b18c29

[consiglieri]

And now the recording of what happened after McKenna bore testimony has just been released by KUTV news.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZK2xUT ... e=youtu.be

[rockslider]

Wow, she is so composed. Impressive how she handles herself. Who is Ian?

[consiglieri]

Now it looks like NBC has picked up the story.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/sexua ... ed-n906996