Baptism and coercion

[Palerider]

Just read an article by Dallin Oaks addressing how we should view baptism and the sacrament.

Elder Oaks:

"In summary, we may think of the sacramental (baptismal)* covenant to take upon us the name of Jesus Christ as comprising at least three meanings, each expressive of a different and ascending level of spiritual progress or maturity. First, we signify our willingness to be identified as a believer in Jesus Christ and as a member of the Church that bears His name and proclaims His gospel throughout the world. Second, we signify our willingness to take upon us our assigned measure of the authority and work of the Savior to bring to pass the eternal life of the children of God, including accepting and laboring diligently to fulfill the responsibilities of our own callings in His kingdom. Third, we witness our commitment to strive to qualify for exaltation in the celestial kingdom."

I fail to see how members of the church don't see huge red flags on this issue. The majority of us were baptized at 8 years of age. We were pretty much just doing what our moms and dads were telling us to do. How could it be otherwise? Why can't members wake up to this? ONLY EIGHT YEARS OLD!

And for the rest of their lives members will have this big stick brought out by church leadership essentially saying, "You covenanted to do all of this at baptism", every time they feel they need some leverage or to guilt trip their members.

It's an exceedingly insidious deception. After all, how could something as innocuous as baptism become a coercive tool? And yet there it is, hiding like a wolf in sheep's clothing. Church leadership should be ashamed of this practice. It's another sign that Joseph was writing the D&C from his own mind. There's no way that Heavenly Father would have required this to be this way.

A person can't even legally enter into a contract until they're eighteen years of age. How can leadership possibly hold someone to account for an act they were persuaded into when they were eight years old? It's disgusting.

* Word baptism added by me because the article regards one as an extension of the other.

http://www.ldsliving.com/President-Oaks ... dium=email

[Rob4Hope]

The problem is the cult practices that enforce conformity and punish those who withdraw. We know, for example, that groups like Scientologists do some nasty things, even criminal things, to DESTROY those who leave and are labeled "divisive". In a smaller, subtler, yet still effective way, the LDS church does the same to members who stray.

From what I've heard, its different outside of the Mormon Corridor, and I confess its changing inside as well (I live right smack dab in SLC). But, to a large extent, people who leave the church are shunned and mourned, like they are going to hell in a handbasket.

But, the ultimate question is WHY do we (speaking in the past tense from my TBM days) give the LDS church so much power? The answer is simple--reject the teachings and coercion and just leave. I've done that now (in the present): I've left, don't' believe it, and don't feel guilty. Damn!... I've even drunk a beer or two (and LIKED IT!).

I finally came to the conclusion that I would rather go to hell and be authentic than go to heaven and be a slave to others doing my thinking, my choosing, and my feeling for me.

PS. I don't believe in hell or heaven anymore anyway.

[Mackman]

To start with the church has this warped sense of what Baptism really is . Baptism is for the remission of sins , end of story it is not to be a member of a cult !! I can't wrap,my head around their warped sense of what it really means they need to read the Bible again !! Oh wait its not interpreted correctly !!! I call B.S.

[sunstoned]

we signify our willingness to take upon us our assigned measure of the authority and work of the Savior to bring to pass the eternal life of the children of God, including accepting and laboring diligently to fulfill the responsibilities of our own callings in His kingdom. Third, we witness our commitment to strive to qualify for exaltation in the celestial kingdom.

For some reason I don't remember the Bishop telling me this in my baptismal interview with I was eight years old. But I do remember being told as a youth (over the pulpit) that I was part of the chosen generation that would usher in the second coming of Christ. That was three generations ago. I hope god doesn't hold it against me for slacking off a little on the Baptism promises, because TSCC has not producted many roll models in the keep your promises department.

[Hagoth]

Baptism is for the remission of sins , end of story

And yet we baptize children at the exact point a child's life when we acknowledge that they are first capable of sinning but before they actually have a chance to sin. The only time in the rest of your life that there is nothing that requires remission.

[deacon blues]

Baptism at eight is coercive, the temple endowment is very coercive. Some might call it 'faith proceeds the miracle" but I think it is more like: "commit to taking the oath, and then we will tell you what the oath is."

[Palerider]

Baptism at eight is coercive, the temple endowment is very coercive. Some might call it 'faith proceeds the miracle" but I think it is more like: "commit to taking the oath, and then we will tell you what the oath is."

Right.

Even the "worldly" legal systems caution that all contracts should be read and understood thoroughly before signing and agreeing to them.
The church of Christ is supposed to be even more up front and honest than the world, but what do we see in the ordinances?

Deception, peer pressure, secrecy, intimidation, abuse of the innocent and the naive....sounds much more like the methods of soothsayers than true prophets of God.