Tips for a stalemate with TBM in-laws

[trophywife26.2]

If you don't know me here is just a brief backstory: 5 years ago I checked out of traditional belief. 10 years ago DH checked out of traditional/literal belief. We have decided to raise our children as secular although we still follow Mormon news and keep up some of favorite aspects of Mormonism (like canning peaches). We did choose to resign about a year ago to simplify life. End home teaching, visiting teaching, ministering, etc.

My in-laws are very intense about their religion. We told them about our choice to walk away from the church over a year and a half ago.

Every Sunday since I have met them 10+ years ago we have gone over to their house for Sunday dinner. They have done an "FHE" every time. Sometimes it's just a treat, sometimes it's a game, sometimes it's a church lesson.

There was a very intense Easter lesson that we felt had too much gore for our preschool aged children. MIL and FIL could not fathom that we would think of the Easter story as inappropriate for children. DH and I decided it would be in the best interest to tell them we would not longer do church lessons for FHE. If they wanted to do a religious lesson we will simply go home early. We explained one reason was to protect their relationship with our children. If they continue the lessons, our secular kids will become aware that they are not 'favorited' like the other niece and nephew who know the answers to the questions and know the songs. We were just incredibly uncomfortable with it. We never knew what they were going to say and if it would be mellow and tame or if it would be intense, violent, shaming, etc.

Well we thought the boundary was set, but we have still had to reset the boundary a few more times. I think it is finally clear they agreed to tell us in advance so we can leave before the lesson. I hope we are done setting the boundary and can start toward a new normal.

Here's what is sad. We are a reflection of each other.

Our perspective: They are putting their beliefs/ideology above their relationship with our family because they refuse to stop FHE.

Their perspective: We are putting our beliefs/ideology above their relationship with our family because we refuse to let them do FHE.


I know in my mind I'm waiting for the day they just give up and stop doing these FHE lessons and I know they are waiting for the day where we just give up and let them do FHE. Irony right?

Any advice or thoughts for me... We have been told there will be a spiritual lesson this week so we're just going to take the kids out for ice cream when we leave early. I already talked to my oldest child about leaving early and am hoping it'll go smoothly. I don't think I'll ever have a good relationship with my in-laws again unless they leave the church (impossible) or we go back (impossible). This is a stalemate.

[Reuben]

Are there usually other events that happen after FHE?

[Dravin]

It seems like you found a good balance point from how you present it. It isn't unfair of them to want to continue doing FHE how they've been doing it before you changed religious beliefs and it isn't unfair of you to want to not have your kids subjected to religious lessons (particularly if they are done in such a way as to leave your children feeling left out), them letting you know in advance so you can quietly step out beforehand seems like a mature solution.

[Hopebeat]

Yes, make sure you communicate with the kids why you’re leaving early if you decide to. Is it appropriate to offer to give theFHE lesson sometime? This would show them you want to be involved at least. How do you think they would react if you offered to teach a nice family oriented lesson in the future? There’s so much you could do with FHE, object lessons, story time, talk about kindness, games, story writing, have the kids ask their grandparents about their own childhood, etc. I’m not sure how strict they are about the lessons, but this could work.

You said you both have the same problem, putting beliefs over family. What if you could be the one to break the pattern, but still keeping your boundaries around religion. Show the value for the family without the conditions of following religious activities to show love. Tell them you value your relationship with them, can you keep the relationship in tact by showing love, but showing love not through religious beliefs and traditions. See if there’s a sort of compromise... again I’m not sure how strict they are with the lesson format or expecting everyone to sit still and listen. Obedience to the tradition of FHE isn’t how you want to show love, find out how you want to show love best. One situation doesn’t need to destroy the relationship, I think both sides just want the validation that they’re loved.

Hopefully this makes sense, I can clarify as needed. Good luck!

[Red Ryder]

Did you ever see that episode of the Brady Bunch where Bobby and Cindy try to break the record for the longest time spent on a teeter totter?

The relevant line is when Mike Brady wisely states “Their minds may be ironclad, but it is the other end that is going to make them quit.”

Think about it.....

[alas]

Yes, make sure you communicate with the kids why you’re leaving early if you decide to. Is it appropriate to offer to give theFHE lesson sometime? This would show them you want to be involved at least. How do you think they would react if you offered to teach a nice family oriented lesson in the future? There’s so much you could do with FHE, object lessons, story time, talk about kindness, games, story writing, have the kids ask their grandparents about their own childhood, etc. I’m not sure how strict they are about the lessons, but this could work.

You said you both have the same problem, putting beliefs over family. What if you could be the one to break the pattern, but still keeping your boundaries around religion. Show the value for the family without the conditions of following religious activities to show love. Tell them you value your relationship with them, can you keep the relationship in tact by showing love, but showing love not through religious beliefs and traditions. See if there’s a sort of compromise... again I’m not sure how strict they are with the lesson format or expecting everyone to sit still and listen. Obedience to the tradition of FHE isn’t how you want to show love, find out how you want to show love best. One situation doesn’t need to destroy the relationship, I think both sides just want the validation that they’re loved.

Hopefully this makes sense, I can clarify as needed. Good luck!

I like this idea. One fear family has when family members leave the church is that they will lose basic values, such as honesty, kindness, giving to others, even the feat that people will go off the deep end as far as WOW. So a NOM lesson about any topic that you think the in laws would like to know you are teaching your children would end some of those fears. It also sets the example of what kind of lesson you do find acceeptable for your children. You could even do a NOM version of WoW by teaching that we should take good care of our body and avoid things that are not good for us, such as under age drinking and whatever else applies to everyone.

The other thing I just want to point out is that you are lucky to have such a good relationship to spend time together every week. Getting my adult children and their children together once a *year* has become like pulling teeth, between our different interests, the custody problem, and busy teen aged schedules and now we have honery teenagers who just don’t want to go anywhere with their parents.

[Anon70]

Yes, make sure you communicate with the kids why you’re leaving early if you decide to. Is it appropriate to offer to give theFHE lesson sometime? This would show them you want to be involved at least. How do you think they would react if you offered to teach a nice family oriented lesson in the future? There’s so much you could do with FHE, object lessons, story time, talk about kindness, games, story writing, have the kids ask their grandparents about their own childhood, etc. I’m not sure how strict they are about the lessons, but this could work.

You said you both have the same problem, putting beliefs over family. What if you could be the one to break the pattern, but still keeping your boundaries around religion. Show the value for the family without the conditions of following religious activities to show love. Tell them you value your relationship with them, can you keep the relationship in tact by showing love, but showing love not through religious beliefs and traditions. See if there’s a sort of compromise... again I’m not sure how strict they are with the lesson format or expecting everyone to sit still and listen. Obedience to the tradition of FHE isn’t how you want to show love, find out how you want to show love best. One situation doesn’t need to destroy the relationship, I think both sides just want the validation that they’re loved.

Hopefully this makes sense, I can clarify as needed. Good luck!

I like this idea. One fear family has when family members leave the church is that they will lose basic values, such as honesty, kindness, giving to others, even the feat that people will go off the deep end as far as WOW. So a NOM lesson about any topic that you think the in laws would like to know you are teaching your children would end some of those fears. It also sets the example of what kind of lesson you do find acceeptable for your children. You could even do a NOM version of WoW by teaching that we should take good care of our body and avoid things that are not good for us, such as under age drinking and whatever else applies to everyone.

The other thing I just want to point out is that you are lucky to have such a good relationship to spend time together every week. Getting my adult children and their children together once a *year* has become like pulling teeth, between our different interests, the custody problem, and busy teen aged schedules and now we have honery teenagers who just don’t want to go anywhere with their parents.

Really smart. I love the time we spend during “FHE” each week but during and after my faith transition I transitioned it to being about life skills, character building, fun and family bonding. My adult kids will come around for it. Hopefully this could help but I would worry that they’d then expect you to hang around for the more traditional FHEs they do. Good luck!

[dogbite]

It's not a stalemate issue. It's about setting boundaries and having them respected. Worrying about their image of you is a side issue imho. Because your boundary cuts out some of what they feel entitled to you aren't going to win any image points. That's a lot battle

IMHO I think you should decrease the in law time generally. Tell them you want to start building some of your own family Sunday traditions. Same for holidays. Sure you do go some of the time to visit but no one side of the family should auitmatically get every Sunday or holiday. You want something meaningful about these days for just your family too for when the in laws pass on or move. And for when you're the older generation something is established. Learn to respect your kids families as well by giving them their own time too when that time comes.

[StarbucksMom]

I also like the ideas of you teaching a lesson, especially Hopebeat's idea of having the kids ask the grandparents questions about their childhood etc. Just try to focus on making good memories for the kids with their grandparents. If you need to leave their house early, just stay positive and thank them for the dinner, fun time, etc.

[trophywife26.2]

These are really great replies. I'm not sure I'm ready to get off that teeter totter yet.

We actually tried to talk to them about doing more general fhe in kindness, honesty, character traits not specific to church 1.5 years ago, but mil gets very nervous like she is walking on eggshells then she tries to sneakily add God in. She truly believes all good comes from God. We believe goodness comes from inside ourselves. We identify with humanism. I've sent her respectful videos about what humanism means. Dh and her had a conversation this week where she said, "the church is who I am, I can't separate myself from it."

I don't really want to do the lessons, ours or theirs, I think it's too raw right now and we need to take a break from that.

To the suggestion that we spend less time with them, I like them having close relationships with grandparents and cousins. If they can respect our boundaries I don't see that as necessary.

I guess one thing that bothers me is fhe is what parents do with children. I feel like we are being treated as children, not competent adults. We are the parents. We can teach the kids values on our own. Without their guidance or, approval.

You guys have given me a lot to think about. Thank you. Nothing will change today's plan to leave early, but I'm going to keep thinking about this and all of your comments.

[alas]

Another approach is teaching your children tolerance and that different people have different beliefs, rather than shielding them from the differences. You will have the kids alone in the car on the way home, and can discuss what you believe compared to what Grandma and Grandpa believe, and teach them that it is OK to not believe the same stuff. Even expand the discussion to other religions.

I will pick on my daughter and what she did with her children as an example. They have a religiously diverse family. Her ex is nothing but anti Mormon. Grandpa L is atheist. Grandpa S is Mormon and Grandma S is me, but I don't classify well as any religion--maybe pantheist. Grandpa G is holy roller evangelical. Granny is raised Mormon, but now Methodist. Mom is raised Mormon but nothing really now. Aunt E and Aunt J are pagan. Uncle J and aunt C are Mormon. And there are some other religions in the mix. Religion is VERY important to some of these people, one born again pastor and one pagan priestess. They are sometimes very intolerant of each other. So, my daughter has taught her children that people are different and have different beliefs, and that is OK. So, at Grandpa G's house they pray his way over meals. At Grandpa S's house it will be a Mormon prayer. When Granny prays, it is going to be still different. When you go to church with Grandpa G, you are going to get loud worship and dancing in the pews. Granny will secretly whisper to you that it is weird. When you go to Aunt E and Aunt J's wedding you are going to have a bonfire and religious ceremony very different than when you go to a wedding reception at a Mormon church. So, rather than forbidding the kiddos from going to church with the different people, or saying no Mormon teachings at FHE, she has just taught her kids that different people believe different stuff. She lets them hear Grandpa G bashing Mormons, and just tells the kids, "well that is how Grandpa G believes, but that sure doesn't mean he is right. If he isn't kind, then he isn't right. Not all Mormons are like he says, for example, Grandpa S isn't that way and Uncle J isn't. What is important is that we love each other, not who is right."

[crossmyheart]

Another approach is teaching your children tolerance and that different people have different beliefs, rather than shielding them from the differences. You will have the kids alone in the car on the way home, and can discuss what you believe compared to what Grandma and Grandpa believe, and teach them that it is OK to not believe the same stuff. Even expand the discussion to other religions.

I will pick on my daughter and what she did with her children as an example. They have a religiously diverse family. Her ex is nothing but anti Mormon. Grandpa L is atheist. Grandpa S is Mormon and Grandma S is me, but I don't classify well as any religion--maybe pantheist. Grandpa G is holy roller evangelical. Granny is raised Mormon, but now Methodist. Mom is raised Mormon but nothing really now. Aunt E and Aunt J are pagan. Uncle J and aunt C are Mormon. And there are some other religions in the mix. Religion is VERY important to some of these people, one born again pastor and one pagan priestess. They are sometimes very intolerant of each other. So, my daughter has taught her children that people are different and have different beliefs, and that is OK. So, at Grandpa G's house they pray his way over meals. At Grandpa S's house it will be a Mormon prayer. When Granny prays, it is going to be still different. When you go to church with Grandpa G, you are going to get loud worship and dancing in the pews. Granny will secretly whisper to you that it is weird. When you go to Aunt E and Aunt J's wedding you are going to have a bonfire and religious ceremony very different than when you go to a wedding reception at a Mormon church. So, rather than forbidding the kiddos from going to church with the different people, or saying no Mormon teachings at FHE, she has just taught her kids that different people believe different stuff. She lets them hear Grandpa G bashing Mormons, and just tells the kids, "well that is how Grandpa G believes, but that sure doesn't mean he is right. If he isn't kind, then he isn't right. Not all Mormons are like he says, for example, Grandpa S isn't that way and Uncle J isn't. What is important is that we love each other, not who is right."

This is the approach we have taken with our kids and I am thrilled to see it finally working! My 11 yo attends church regularly with my NOM leaning/TBM husband. Recently she and I were discussing some church related topics that came up in her sunday school class. She verbalized back to me that she feels differently than what was taught and that it is ok to not always agree. But in the class she was respectful and listened. Inside I was jumping for joy. Teaching her critical thinking skills is paying off. She is navigating her own way.

My DH and I have been very purposeful about allowing our children to be exposed to all beliefs that touch our family, LDS, atheist, southern Baptist, etc. They are forming their own opinions but with a strong influence from what they see us do. If we are open and tolerant, they will be. And in the privacy of our own home we are able to dissect it with them.

[foolmeonce]

What I’m about to say is harsh, cold, and may belong on exmo reddit instead of here, but I’ll say it anyway.

I’m in a similar boat as you, but it’s with my parents. The cold hard truth is that I got my kids and spouse out of the cult, and any ruined relationships with those that remain in are collateral damage. Does that hurt? Sure, but I got my kids out and so they won’t have to deal with LDS pain in the future. DW and I try to keep out eyes on the prize, and that’s the youngest generations, older generations are a distant second. If the older generations can’t deal with the reality that the eternal chain is broken, than that’s on them, not me. No indoctrination of my kids. Period.

This is certainly an ugly part of the journey, but I didn’t set the terms, COB did.

Big picture though, my immediate family and I win. We’re out and life has never been better. And I should say that we try to make it to big life events like blessungs, baptisms, and weddings (reception only for me thank you.) Those are more about supporting an individual, and I can inoculate before and after.


(Are we allowed to say the C word on 2.0? Sorry if I offend, don’t kick me off, I like it here.)

[alas]

Another approach is teaching your children tolerance and that different people have different beliefs, rather than shielding them from the differences. You will have the kids alone in the car on the way home, and can discuss what you believe compared to what Grandma and Grandpa believe, and teach them that it is OK to not believe the same stuff. Even expand the discussion to other religions.

I will pick on my daughter and what she did with her children as an example. They have a religiously diverse family. Her ex is nothing but anti Mormon. Grandpa L is atheist. Grandpa S is Mormon and Grandma S is me, but I don't classify well as any religion--maybe pantheist. Grandpa G is holy roller evangelical. Granny is raised Mormon, but now Methodist. Mom is raised Mormon but nothing really now. Aunt E and Aunt J are pagan. Uncle J and aunt C are Mormon. And there are some other religions in the mix. Religion is VERY important to some of these people, one born again pastor and one pagan priestess. They are sometimes very intolerant of each other. So, my daughter has taught her children that people are different and have different beliefs, and that is OK. So, at Grandpa G's house they pray his way over meals. At Grandpa S's house it will be a Mormon prayer. When Granny prays, it is going to be still different. When you go to church with Grandpa G, you are going to get loud worship and dancing in the pews. Granny will secretly whisper to you that it is weird. When you go to Aunt E and Aunt J's wedding you are going to have a bonfire and religious ceremony very different than when you go to a wedding reception at a Mormon church. So, rather than forbidding the kiddos from going to church with the different people, or saying no Mormon teachings at FHE, she has just taught her kids that different people believe different stuff. She lets them hear Grandpa G bashing Mormons, and just tells the kids, "well that is how Grandpa G believes, but that sure doesn't mean he is right. If he isn't kind, then he isn't right. Not all Mormons are like he says, for example, Grandpa S isn't that way and Uncle J isn't. What is important is that we love each other, not who is right."

This is the approach we have taken with our kids and I am thrilled to see it finally working! My 11 yo attends church regularly with my NOM leaning/TBM husband. Recently she and I were discussing some church related topics that came up in her sunday school class. She verbalized back to me that she feels differently than what was taught and that it is ok to not always agree. But in the class she was respectful and listened. Inside I was jumping for joy. Teaching her critical thinking skills is paying off. She is navigating her own way.

My DH and I have been very purposeful about allowing our children to be exposed to all beliefs that touch our family, LDS, atheist, southern Baptist, etc. They are forming their own opinions but with a strong influence from what they see us do. If we are open and tolerant, they will be. And in the privacy of our own home we are able to dissect it with them.

This is harder because you actively have to expose your children to many beliefs. You have to teach critical thinking and discuss different cultures. You have to teach your children that they can disagree with mom & dad, and discuss it as *adults* when they do. AND, there is the risk they will decide Mormonism makes sense to them. (*treating their opinion as equal to your own.)

It is interesting with my own kids. We exposed the two oldest to Europe, art, cathedrals, religion. But the youngest was only 4 when we left Germany. He had a much more stable life with much less moving, and didn’t have Jewish best friends in Florida and born again friends in Texas. He spent many of his more formative years in Utah, where we settled before DH retired from the military. He really only barely remembers Texas, and grew up from about 8 in Utah, compared to his big sisters who have clear memories of all over the place, and moved to Utah as a foreign country as teens in high school. We worked harder teaching the girls critical thinking and about other religions, because they were girls and it is much harder to be Mormon and female than male. And the youngest was kind of left to raise himself/absorb what he could, cause DH had more job stress and I went to work full time instead of part.

So, Guess which of my children is TBM, married to TBM, and both n leadership positions? Yup, the one taught the least critical thinking and exposed the least to other cultures and religions.

[alas]

What I’m about to say is harsh, cold, and may belong on exmo reddit instead of here, but I’ll say it anyway.

I’m in a similar boat as you, but it’s with my parents. The cold hard truth is that I got my kids and spouse out of the cult, and any ruined relationships with those that remain in are collateral damage. Does that hurt? Sure, but I got my kids out and so they won’t have to deal with LDS pain in the future. DW and I try to keep out eyes on the prize, and that’s the youngest generations, older generations are a distant second. If the older generations can’t deal with the reality that the eternal chain is broken, than that’s on them, not me. No indoctrination of my kids. Period.

This is certainly an ugly part of the journey, but I didn’t set the terms, COB did.

Big picture though, my immediate family and I win. We’re out and life has never been better. And I should say that we try to make it to big life events like blessungs, baptisms, and weddings (reception only for me thank you.) Those are more about supporting an individual, and I can inoculate before and after.


(Are we allowed to say the C word on 2.0? Sorry if I offend, don’t kick me off, I like it here.)

You would have been corrected for the C word on NOM.1. But the church has become more C like since then, and quite frankly, I was using the C word with noMo friends 15 years ago and choking on having to moderate it on old NOM. So, welcome to NNOM. (New New Order Mormon) where the C word is acceptable. Cult cult cult.

But in your post, you used a good word about inoculating your kids against Mormon indoctrination. That is called teaching them critical thinking and teaching them not to fall for emotional appeals. This kind of thinking can be used to prevent them from buying beauty products that don’t work and flashy cars that are not well built or practical, because they recognize when they are being emotionally manipulated. They recognize indoctrination. They recognize the sales tactics used by the business model the church uses.

[Wonderment]

These are really great replies. I'm not sure I'm ready to get off that teeter totter yet.

We actually tried to talk to them about doing more general fhe in kindness, honesty, character traits not specific to church 1.5 years ago, but mil gets very nervous like she is walking on eggshells then she tries to sneakily add God in. She truly believes all good comes from God. We believe goodness comes from inside ourselves. We identify with humanism. I've sent her respectful videos about what humanism means. Dh and her had a conversation this week where she said, "the church is who I am, I can't separate myself from it."

This sounds just like my older relatives who are super-religious and who insist on having every holiday, every Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Easter at their house with their traditions and their religious proselytizing. They do treat the grown adults as if they are still children. They are also very insistent that it is their house and their religious traditions, their prayers, their commentary before prayers, and so forth. They have said more or less the same -- that the church is a big part of who they are, and they cannot separate themselves from it.

That is fine for them, but it does not work for us at all. If they want to have FHE or talk about church after dinner, we thank them lovingly for having us over, then as kindly and gently as possible, we leave the gathering. If they choose to be offended, then that is their decision alone. It is their choice to talk about church or have FHE, but we have told them that we will believe according to the dictates of our own conscience, and our beliefs no longer match theirs.

When they say that they cannot separate themselves from the church, I think it is perfectly fine to say kindly, "That is no longer who we are, and we will be leaving when FHE or religious discussion, or proselytizing begins. We enjoy seeing you and spending time with you, but we choose to believe otherwise and to raise our children otherwise."
It is so difficult to set a boundary for people who have no boundaries when it comes to proselytizing others, including their own family members; but you are doing the exact right thing that is best for your children and your own well-being. Continue to set the boundary, and each time it will be a little easier. I support you and assure you that you are on the right track with setting the boundaries. - Wndr.

[trophywife26.2]

Love the dialogue and all the thoughts you guys are sharing. I was giddy with joy and euphoria when we left without the lesson. I wasn't expecting to feel like that, but I did. It was just so freeing. I don't see us changing the boundary in our situation.

[foolmeonce]

Love the dialogue and all the thoughts you guys are sharing. I was giddy with joy and euphoria when we left without the lesson. I wasn't expecting to feel like that, but I did. It was just so freeing. I don't see us changing the boundary in our situation.

The guilt unfortunately sucks. The good news is that your kids won’t have the same experience. The cost/benifit on this definity works in your favor over be long term.