Metal plates not such a big surprise afterall

[Hagoth]

One of the apologetic arguments that got pounded into my head over and over again while researching Book of Mormon origins was that a book written on metal plates was a completely unexpected concept with no precedent until, ta da! in the 20th century archaeologists started to discover that ancient people really did write on metal plates. My personal answer to this problem had been that a) Joseph would have known the masonic story of the temple of Enoch which contained a gold plate that bore inscriptions in an undecipherable script, b) one of the authors of the Hurlbutt affidavits refers to a rumor that was going around Joseph's neighborhood of a gold book that was buried somewhere in Canada, and c) ancient people didn't have that many materials to work with but they wrote on every material that they did have. Why wouldn't they write on metal?

But Bill Reel gave me another answer in his Sunstone presentation that I hadn't heard before. 19th century Americans DID know about ancient Jews writing on metal plates. Here's a quote from a 1859 Journal of Discourses statement by Orson Pratt:

“Through the back of the plates were three rings, which held them together, and through which a rod might easily be passed, serving as a greater convenience for carrying them; the construction and form of the plates being similar to the gold, brass, and lead plates of the ancient Jews in Palestine.”

So there's that.

[slavereeno]

So there's that.

That's an interesting quote. Well the kinderhook plates were fabrications of writing on metal I suppose it could have been in response the Smith's claims but the idea of writings on metal doesn't seem foreign to this people. I wonder if there is any history book or the like that might provide corroboration?

[Archimedes]

But Bill Reel gave me another answer in his Sunstone presentation that I hadn't heard before. 19th century Americans DID know about ancient Jews writing on metal plates. Here's a quote from a 1859 Journal of Discourses statement by Orson Pratt:

“Through the back of the plates were three rings, which held them together, and through which a rod might easily be passed, serving as a greater convenience for carrying them; the construction and form of the plates being similar to the gold, brass, and lead plates of the ancient Jews in Palestine.”

Sorry but I must be missing the point here. I don't see how this can be used as proof of anything except circular reasoning. This Orson Pratt quote is from nearly 30 years after publication of the BofM. His knowledge of the ancient Palestinian Jews writing on metal plates was no doubt primarily from the story of Laban and the brass plates. From a cynical perspective this looks like using one made up story to corroborate another made up story.

[Hagoth]

Sorry but I must be missing the point here. I don't see how this can be used as proof of anything except circular reasoning. This Orson Pratt quote is from nearly 30 years after publication of the BofM. His knowledge of the ancient Palestinian Jews writing on metal plates was no doubt primarily from the story of Laban and the brass plates. From a cynical perspective this looks like using one made up story to corroborate another made up story.

Good point, Archimedes. No further questions, your honor. The prosecution rests its case.

[Palerider]

I just figured that (as usual) Joseph took an idea from another source and ran with it. From the King James Bible Leviticus 8:9

"9 Then he placed the turban on Aaron’s head and set the gold plate, the sacred emblem, on the front of it, as the LORD commanded Moses."

Exodus 28:36

" “Make a plate of pure gold and engrave on it as on a seal: HOLY TO THE LORD."

Isaiah:

" Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:"

Habakkuk 2:2

" And the Lord answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it." (Both tablets in Isaiah and Habakkuk are generally understood to be either metal or wood)

There are numerous references to tablets or plates of different types (clay, gold, bronze, wood etc.) for various functions in the Bible. Joseph's family although being led by a bit of a shyster in Joseph Senior, were known to study the Bible being led by Lucy Mack.

I'm pretty sure scholars have known for some time that the ancients used metals, clays, papyra and wood for writing platforms. Well before Joseph's time.

[Palerider]

Double post.

[Archimedes]

Double post.

And a good one. Looks like there would have been plenty of tidbits in the bible to have provided the idea to Joseph's mind of ancient records on gold plates. There may have been other external sources available to JS at the time, i haven't looked into that to any great degree.

And apologies to those of you out there who maintain belief in the BofM as an inspired or semi inspired work. My PoV is from the negative perspective on that one; your results may vary.

[Hagoth]

I continue to think that the Enoch story might have been significant in Joseph's mind. Enoch is a pretty significant character in Mormonism and Freemasonry, but nowhere else. Enoch's gold plate, inscribed with the ineffable name of God, was also hidden under a stone slab.

[Palerider]

I continue to think that the Enoch story might have been significant in Joseph's mind. Enoch is a pretty significant character in Mormonism and Freemasonry, but nowhere else. Enoch's gold plate, inscribed with the ineffable name of God, was also hidden under a stone slab.

The Enoch story is one I'm unfamiliar with. Is it Masonic in origin or is it from the Apocrypha. I know Joseph's family Bible contained the Apocrypha but I've never put to much time towards it's study.

[græy]

There are lots of examples of ancient peoples using wooden, stone, and even metal plates for storing important information. One of the coolest examples is the copper scroll from the Dead Sea Scrolls collection which contains information about hidden treasures.

But I don't believe there is evidence, anywhere, from any time frame or any civilization, of entire books the size of the book of mormon (~535 pages), plus the lost transcripts (~116 pages), plus the seals portion (1/2-2/3 the total size of the plates, we'll be generous and say 1/2) = ~1300 typed pages worth of text. Carved. By Hand. On Metal.

I'd love the be proven wrong. Are plates like that a thing? In all my significant internetting I have not been able to find any.

Judging by Joseph's "translation" of Hor's Book of Breathings, it is clear that he believed each Egyptian hieroglyph represented entire sentences or even paragraphs of text. That is not the case. But if it were true, then maybe you could fit that much text on metal plates. But its not. And it would be insane to try to hand carve that much data on metal.

[moksha]

Judging by Joseph's "translation" of Hor's Book of Breathings, it is clear that he believed each Egyptian hieroglyph represented entire sentences or even paragraphs of text. That is not the case. But if it were true, then maybe you could fit that much text on metal plates. But its not. And it would be insane to try to hand carve that much data on metal.

You are forgetting that the crystalline matrix of the Seer Stone allowed Joseph to read the digital algorithms embedded in the golden plates. All very scientific stuff run on priesthood power.

[Hagoth]

The Enoch story is one I'm unfamiliar with. Is it Masonic in origin or is it from the Apocrypha. I know Joseph's family Bible contained the Apocrypha but I've never put to much time towards it's study.

Enoch is mentioned in Genesis 5, "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him," and Joseph Smith expanded the "God took him" into the story in the Book of Moses about how Enoch's city was a true Zion that was so perfect that God had no choice but to levitate the entire city off into space somewhere. There are a number of elaborations attributed to Joseph Smith about where they are now (e.g. near a star in the Big Dipper) and Enoch even got his own verse in the Follow the Prophet primary song. There is also an apocryphal Book of Enoch. Joseph Smith probably got off on it because it talked about astronomical concepts. Then the Masons came along and further expanded the story of Enoch and described details of his secret underground temple, which Solomon chose as the spot to build his above-ground temple.

I really don't know that much about it, except that Enoch seems to hold a special place for Mormons and Masons, but not really for anybody else.

[Archimedes]

Judging by Joseph's "translation" of Hor's Book of Breathings, it is clear that he believed each Egyptian hieroglyph represented entire sentences or even paragraphs of text. That is not the case. But if it were true, then maybe you could fit that much text on metal plates. But its not. And it would be insane to try to hand carve that much data on metal.

You are forgetting that the crystalline matrix of the Seer Stone allowed Joseph to read the digital algorithms embedded in the golden plates. All very scientific stuff run on priesthood power.

You can see this power depicted on Figure 5 of Facsimile 2 (explanation follows below). Courtesy Joseph Smith, Jr.



Fig. 5. Is called in Egyptian Enish-go-on-dosh; this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key, or, in other words, the governing power, which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars, as also Floeese or the Moon, the Earth and the Sun in their annual revolutions. This planet receives its power through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es, or Hah-ko-kau-beam, the stars represented by numbers 22 and 23, receiving light from the revolutions of Kolob.

I gotta get me some of that Kae-e-vanrash.

[Palerider]

The Enoch story is one I'm unfamiliar with. Is it Masonic in origin or is it from the Apocrypha. I know Joseph's family Bible contained the Apocrypha but I've never put to much time towards it's study.

Enoch is mentioned in Genesis 5, "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him," and Joseph Smith expanded the "God took him" into the story in the Book of Moses about how Enoch's city was a true Zion that was so perfect that God had no choice but to levitate the entire city off into space somewhere. There are a number of elaborations attributed to Joseph Smith about where they are now (e.g. near a star in the Big Dipper) and Enoch even got his own verse in the Follow the Prophet primary song. There is also an apocryphal Book of Enoch. Joseph Smith probably got off on it because it talked about astronomical concepts. Then the Masons came along and further expanded the story of Enoch and described details of his secret underground temple, which Solomon chose as the spot to build his above-ground temple.

I really don't know that much about it, except that Enoch seems to hold a special place for Mormons and Masons, but not really for anybody else.

I am very familiar with the Enoch story from the Old Testament and from the book of Moses. Just didn’t remember either of those stories being associated with gold plates.

The Masonic connection seems much more probable since there was so much interest in it in New York during Joseph’s youth. And weren't Joseph Senior and Hiram both Masons early on?

But then I would surmise that the early Masons (and possibly Kabbalist jews) probably took their lead from the O.T. verses I quoted above. If we're talking about people creating/fabricating legends from bits of Biblical information I'm sure Joseph wasn't the first person to use his imagination in that regard.

[græy]

You are forgetting that the crystalline matrix of the Seer Stone allowed Joseph to read the digital algorithms embedded in the golden plates. All very scientific stuff run on priesthood power.

Oh yeah, I... Uh... Forgot, that. I guess it's all true after all!

[græy]

Fig. 5. Is called in Egyptian Enish-go-on-dosh; this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key, or, in other words, the governing power, which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars, as also Floeese or the Moon, the Earth and the Sun in their annual revolutions. This planet receives its power through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es, or Hah-ko-kau-beam, the stars represented by numbers 22 and 23, receiving light from the revolutions of Kolob.

It all makes so much sense!

I gotta get me some of that Kae-e-vanrash.

I'm pretty sure I saw this on sale in the baking isle!

[Hagoth]

I am very familiar with the Enoch story from the Old Testament and from the book of Moses. Just didn’t remember either of those stories being associated with gold plates.

The Masonic connection seems much more probable since there was so much interest in it in New York during Joseph’s youth. And weren't Joseph Senior and Hiram both Masons early on?

No doubt you know more about scriptural components of the story than I do, Palerider. I tried to read the apocryphal Book of Enoch long ago but I don't remember much of it. I don't recall anything about the gold plate there. As far as I can tell the gold plate addition is purely masonic from a legend in which Enoch is shown a gold plate with writing on it in a vision and then replicates it as an addition to his temple on earth.

Joseph also had uncles and other relatives who were Masons and would have known these stories. His connection to Freemasonry is very strange. The BoM has some overtly anti-masonic sentiments but Joseph was obviously intrigued by masonry, considering how much he borrowed from it. A lot of his early "persecutions" came from clashes with treasure-hunters on one side and Masons on the other. The tar and feathering incident in Hiram, Ohio (a town which was originally settled by Masons who named it after Hiram Abiff from masonic myth) is sometimes blamed on Joseph's relationship with the Johnson girl, but may have had more to do with the fact that God had picked a spot in Hiram for Joseph to build his first temple, which the local Masons saw that as a direct challenge to their temples, so they took action to prevent it. Joseph then settled for a temple plot in Kirkland, his third choice after Missouri and Hiram.

All of this keeps leading me back to George Miller (the NOM GM, not the real one) who believes that Joseph Smith bought into George Oliver's version of history in which masonry was bifurcated anciently into the true priesthood carried by the patriarchs and the spurious masonry of Cain. Joseph would have almost certainly had access to Oliver's book, and many bits and pieces of it show up in Mormon doctrine, including the gold plate.

[slavereeno]

I'm pretty sure I saw this on sale in the baking isle!

Which aisle do you go to in order to find what God's got going on in Figure 7?

[slavereeno]

A lot of his early "persecutions" came from clashes with treasure-hunters on one side and Masons on the other. The tar and feathering incident in Hiram, Ohio (a town which was originally settled by Masons who named it after Hiram Abiff from masonic myth) is sometimes blamed on Joseph's relationship with the Johnson girl, but may have had more to do with the fact that God had picked a spot in Hiram for Joseph to build his first temple, which the local Masons saw that as a direct challenge to their temples, so they took action to prevent it.

Why does this make me feel like I have dedicated over 40 years of my life to a giant cosplay of the movie "National Treasure"?

[Archimedes]

I'm pretty sure I saw this on sale in the baking isle!

Which aisle do you go to in order to find what God's got going on in Figure 7?

Fig. "7". Ought not to be revealed at the present time.