More Baptism Stuff

[Linked]

Hi NOM friends. My family is approaching 8 years old for our oldest in under a year and my DW and I don't know what to do. I don't even know what to want. I was hoping to get your thoughts. (I still haven't had the discussion with my son that we talked about in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2525)

DW and I had a discussion last weekend about what to do. She has a pretty simple view, she wants him to get baptized. That's it. She has given up caring who does it, whether me or someone else. She just wants him dunked. I was thrown off because I haven't really considered pushing against his baptism, so I spent much of the conversation exploring that concept with her which was a bad decision, oops.

On my side I am struggling to know what to even want. If we could banish the church from our lives I would do that, but it just isn't an option for our family. TBM DW, almost all the cousins and aunts and uncles who we spend a lot of time with, and living in the heart of Mordor. I don't want his dad's religious beliefs to get in the way of his friendships. So unless DW is going to have a change of heart, we decide to spend less time with extended family, and we move, I think he should probably be baptized and continue going to church regularly. Right?

As for who will baptize him, I don't want to be replaced in my kid's life. Right now we have a good relationship and I think having someone else do it could be a dark spot on it. But I also want to be more honest with him, so he doesn't hear about my unbelief from his cousins before me. Can I do both? Maybe talk to him about how different people believe different things and that's ok, and I believe a little differently. Then baptize him and he can wonder about that when he gets a little older.

Does that work? Or is there a brick wall somewhere in there that I can't see?

I would need to get back in good standing with the bishop, probably go get a temple recommend and be just another "endowed with recommend" guy in the ward. It's not perfect, but my kid gets baptized and doesn't have social issues with his mormon friend peers, I baptize him so there is no hiccup in our relationship, and my kid can be let in on my beliefs a little bit. The only cost is my honesty. There are higher prices to pay I suppose.

[Red Ryder]

I've been through this dilemma twice now.

I baptized the kids.

The first I had a recommend so Baptism and Confirmation were done. That was before the rule change requiring the TR for confirmation went into effect.

The second one I baptized and confirmed but the TR rule literally changed a month before. Being the crack addicted to mormon internet boards junkie that I was, I knew about the rule change before the baptism date. I went in and got the TR which ended up costing me some tithing dollars. It was the small price I was willing to pay to be the "normal mormon" dad for my kid.

If I were in your position here's what I would do.

Baptism is more of a right of passages milestone event for kids. They don't know any better or difference. They just know dads get to do it and everyone comes over for ice cream after.

Baptize your kid. Pick a grandfather to do the confirmation. Everyone participates including you in the circle. No TR just means you can't act as voice. You can still be in the circle. Everyone wins! The grandfather helping is more of a family nostalgic thing than a shame thing. You want him to participate out of respect for family.

Don't question your integrity. Just give the kid his 8 year old mormon bar-mitzvah. That's all it is.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

I am in the same dilemma with my next child. I baptized my first one after a crazy interview with the bishop. No recommend required and I got to perform the confirmation too. I think he just didn't want to be a bad guy and let me do it to get it off his list of crap to deal with.

Unfortunately, I have lost the desire to do the next one. I can't bend my integrity this time. Like my father before me I will bear the cross of judgement and cultural shame and sit in the back this time while a grandpa or brother in law handles it. I am drawing a line in the sand not to be the one responsible for kicking the indoctrination can down the road.

[wtfluff]

This statement is not "aimed" at anyone in particular, but it just popped into my head while perusing this thread:

Why is it so damn hard for us to actually be honest with our family about this stuff? (Or any number of other people in our lives?)

And piggy-backed on that thought: What does that say about the organization that has basically forced us into these situations?

[Linked]

Thanks for the thoughts, I appreciate your comments.

This statement is not "aimed" at anyone in particular, but it just popped into my head while perusing this thread:

Why is it so damn hard for us to actually be honest with our family about this stuff? (Or any number of other people in our lives?)

And piggy-backed on that thought: What does that say about the organization that has basically forced us into these situations?

These thoughts keep hitting me too. I told my DW it was hard for me to keep a clear head with this stuff because I feel like I am chained up and being pulled in different directions and it makes me angry, so I can't think straight. What I believe in my head and my reactive emotions aren't on the same page yet, so I have a hard time shaking the feeling that my position is bad, that I'm an apostate, and it is hard to bear that scarlet "A" with my head held high.

Also, the TBMs in our lives are beyond uninterested in hearing our honesty.

I am in the same dilemma with my next child. I baptized my first one after a crazy interview with the bishop. No recommend required and I got to perform the confirmation too. I think he just didn't want to be a bad guy and let me do it to get it off his list of crap to deal with.

Unfortunately, I have lost the desire to do the next one. I can't bend my integrity this time. Like my father before me I will bear the cross of judgement and cultural shame and sit in the back this time while a grandpa or brother in law handles it. I am drawing a line in the sand not to be the one responsible for kicking the indoctrination can down the road.

It's like choosing between a giant douche and a turd sandwich.

I think my bishop would let me do the full baptism and confirmation, but if I decide I want to baptize my son I will probably do what I can to take that decision out of his hands. I know the answers that get me what I want, and this isn't really his business (I mean, it's totally his business, but it's more my family's business). I'm not ready for the fight with DW on stopping the indoctrination, though she knows my view. Maybe for kid #2...

I hope your shame is less eventful then we all worry it will be. I wish I could come support, I would sit in the back with you in solidarity.

I've been through this dilemma twice now.

I baptized the kids.

The first I had a recommend so Baptism and Confirmation were done. That was before the rule change requiring the TR for confirmation went into effect.

The second one I baptized and confirmed but the TR rule literally changed a month before. Being the crack addicted to mormon internet boards junkie that I was, I knew about the rule change before the baptism date. I went in and got the TR which ended up costing me some tithing dollars. It was the small price I was willing to pay to be the "normal mormon" dad for my kid.

If I were in your position here's what I would do.

Baptism is more of a right of passages milestone event for kids. They don't know any better or difference. They just know dads get to do it and everyone comes over for ice cream after.

Baptize your kid. Pick a grandfather to do the confirmation. Everyone participates including you in the circle. No TR just means you can't act as voice. You can still be in the circle. Everyone wins! The grandfather helping is more of a family nostalgic thing than a shame thing. You want him to participate out of respect for family.

Don't question your integrity. Just give the kid his 8 year old mormon bar-mitzvah. That's all it is.

Thanks for your experience and advice RR. This is where I think I'm heading, I just need to get there. I will probably do all of it. I can push through "Receive the Holy Ghost" maybe. Ugh. Seirei o ukenasai!

I've always been a maximiser (as opposed to a satisficer) and am noticing more and more how it makes decisions more difficult and less fulfilling. In this situation I may need to pick something satisfying and just not look back.

Thank you NOMmies.

[Reuben]

Why is it so damn hard for us to actually be honest with our family about this stuff? (Or any number of other people in our lives?)

Shame. Fear of rejection.

And piggy-backed on that thought: What does that say about the organization that has basically forced us into these situations?

Its favorite tool is shame.

It's even fooled itself onto thinking that shame is guilt, and that its judgments are God's judgments. If it were a person, we would be in an unfortunately common abusive relationship with a grandiose narcissist. We're the "identified patient" - the bad kid, the scapegoat, the one with all the problems. Everyone else is happy, see?

Sometimes, having this kind of relationship calls for keeping your head down and getting through it. The parent is delusional and holds all the cards. Red Ryder's suggestion is good. It's easier to get permission to baptize than to confirm.

[jfro18]

I don't have a ton to add, but I hope you can come to something you can stand for now.

Right now our kid is still 6, and while we work out our church issues he is not going. I do not think that's going to work long term, so I know the issue is not a dead one by any stretch.

I just remember for the blessing my in-laws flew out to see it (they never fly out for anything, but were happy to fly out for a friggin blessing), and then my FIL asked if I wanted to be a part of it. I said no and he looked like I just told him I was a serial killer. I kind of wish I had just participated and avoided that awkwardness, but I just wanted no part of it and answered no almost on instinct.

As for why it's so hard to talk to family/friends - just reading this board or reddit or listening to podcasts makes it perfectly clear. Not only will friends ignore you, our spouses don't even trust that we've done our homework. It is painful to know that my wife doesn't trust a word I say about church, and that she considers me to be "misguided" in my thoughts. It's really difficult to have conversations when you know that not only will they resent you for it, they won't even consider the information you present anyway. The risks outweigh the rewards by an almost insurmountable level.

Good luck - I hope one day your DW comes around... gotta keep hoping, anyway, for all of our sakes.

[Red Ryder]

Whatever you choose to do, don't make this a thing about YOU. Let it be centered on your kid and make it a special day about THEM.

If you do it, hold your head high and feel proud of yourself for supporting your family.

If you decide not to, skip the part where you explain your unbelief to your kid. He's too young to understand it all. Just let him know grandpa will be his dude that day. Hold your head high and feel proud of yourself for supporting your family.

In a mixed faith marriage, support for the wife and kids goes along way. The kids will eventually get old enough to understand what constitutes belief and decide for themselves if they have any to continue in the church.

Neither one of my kids really even remembers their baptism day and it's certainly not a pivotal life changing event any more than losing their first tooth was. They just remember family all came over and we had a celebration with cake and ice cream.

Last thing I'll say is this: don't over think this! The anxiety isn't worth it.

[Just This Guy]

DW and I had a discussion last weekend about what to do. She has a pretty simple view, she wants him to get baptized. That's it. She has given up caring who does it, whether me or someone else. She just wants him dunked.

Maybe you should suggest to DW that SHE be the one to baptize him. Go visit the local lake and let her do it, like they did in the beginning of the church.

[Linked]

I just remember for the blessing my in-laws flew out to see it (they never fly out for anything, but were happy to fly out for a friggin blessing)...

This really highlights why it is important for my son to get baptized. It's his big moment as the center of attention. Taking belief out of it, this is a big individual milestone in our culture. If there was a ready replacement culture that would be one thing, but DW is clinging to this one.

Whatever you choose to do, don't make this a thing about YOU. Let it be centered on your kid and make it a special day about THEM.

Great reminder, hopefully I can get through my issues in the background long before his special day.

Last thing I'll say is this: don't over think this! The anxiety isn't worth it.

I see we've never met, overthinking is the only kind of thinking I do!

DW and I had a discussion last weekend about what to do. She has a pretty simple view, she wants him to get baptized. That's it. She has given up caring who does it, whether me or someone else. She just wants him dunked.

Maybe you should suggest to DW that SHE be the one to baptize him. Go visit the local lake and let her do it, like they did in the beginning of the church.

I love this. It would be beautiful, a mother who desperately wants to teach her son what she believes is right. Unfortunately she's been told that that would be wrong.

We have replaced priesthood blessings with each of us praying over our kids while holding them. I think that's nice.

[shadow]

I have been through this twice and have another one coming up this fall (and two more after that a few years down the road). Around the time my first was approaching 8, I was coming to acceptance that mormon priesthood isn't really what it's claimed to be, and I didn't feel comfortable participating in ordinances. We don't live near grandparents or other extended family, but my wife still wanted family to perform the baptism. This has just meant my dad has done the baptizing and confirming, and we have gotten a family trip out of it. (It has been a little frustrating to take vacation time for this, but we've been able to line it up with holidays. The next one will be over Thanksgiving.)

It was definitely uncomfortable sitting there, but like has been said, I tried to not make it about me. I told my sons how proud I was of them for deciding to do something that signifies that they are willing to live a life of trying to be loving and kind to others just as Jesus showed. After they got baptized, I went back into the changing room to help my sons get dressed and take care of their wet clothes.

I acknowledge that family dynamics play a large role here. While all of my family is mormon, there are plenty of examples of people in the family who aren't devout and there was never any question in my mind that I would still ultimately be loved. Even with that, I still felt shame a pressure to do it myself.

One interesting thing that happened with my first son was that after he was baptized, we were sitting there about to do the confirmation and my dad asked me if I was going to join the circle - that I could still just join the circle and may have asked me if I had asked my bishop about that. I told him that I knew that I technically could, but wasn't planning on joining the circle. We still haven't to this day had a deep discussion about the reasons behind my disaffection. In fact, no one has ever asked me. I've only really discussed it with my wife, who I think was an unwitting and unwilling participant to that conversation at times. But at least in this instance, I was able to signal to my dad that this wasn't some worthiness issue, but that I was choosing not to participate in priesthood ordinances.

If you do decide not to participate, just be aware that there may be things during the day that hurt. I was doing great until it was time for the confirmation. Because we were doing it away from our own stake, the bishop of my mom's ward had to preside over the baptism. When it was time for the confirmation, he invited "worthy priesthood holder" to come up to join the circle. I know that I had made the decision, but it really pissed me off when the husband of my wife's college friend and my cousins new husband that I had never met joined the circle while I sat there. Again, I was sitting by choice, but I really didn't like the implication that anyone not in the circle wasn't worthy. I guess I shouldn't complain too much. At least my biology lets me have the "priesthood holder" part.

[Red Ryder]

One more thing I forgot to mention!

If you do decide to do the baptism, don't forget to wear your garments or at a minimum white undies!

I completely forgot and was wearing the standard apostate black Hanes boxer briefs. I showed up at the church in my church clothes when I realized what I had done. Panic set in.

Thank God for Mormon Standard time!

Fortunately my wife was still at the house and was able to bring a pair of white ones before everyone changed to the baptismal jump suit!

Since my kid was last we had the changing room to ourselves and I slipped the black apostate undies back on to do the confirmation!

The dumb things we do to survive Mormonism!

[Corsair]

One more thing I forgot to mention!

If you do decide to do the baptism, don't forget to wear your garments or at a minimum white undies!

I had a variant of that problem baptizing one of my daughter. Like RR, I was also faking it with family at the time and I completely agree with his advice to let it be a special day for your child. I'm not letting the church stand in as their father.

So that day I was wearing the garments, but I didn't have a second pair of dry garments. The service is about to start and I am facing the possibility of wet underpants under my church clothes for the second half of the ceremony. But then I realized one solid alternative. I simply went "commando" under that white, polyester jump suit. It was a bold move since I did not want to delay an ordinance of salvation due to "insufficient underpants".

I also had the experience of quite a bit more freedom than I normally want to experience at church. I'm shaking hands with friends, relatives, grandparents, in-laws, cousins, and ward leadership with a laugh track under the running commentary in my head. "Good to see you, Bishop Smith. Did I forget to mention that I'm not wearing underpants?" It's like I had a second voice in my head trying to not use the out loud voice, but still wanting to acknowledge this new, free-spirited method of helping my daughter dedicate her life to follow the teachings of Jesus.

You may have already thought of this, but metal folding chairs are really cold if you are separated from them by only a single layer of polyester-cotton. This single layer of material was also poised to betray me after the baptism. Luckily, nobody was watching me as I carefully exited the font trying to casually not let this wet jumpsuit become form fitting due to clingy water. My daughter was delightful and radiant so no one was watching me and I have kept this secret to this day.

[Red Ryder]

I also had the experience of quite a bit more freedom than I normally want to experience at church. I'm shaking hands with friends, relatives, grandparents, in-laws, cousins, and ward leadership with a laugh track under the running commentary in my head. "Good to see you, Bishop Smith. Did I forget to mention that I'm not wearing underpants?" It's like I had a second voice in my head trying to not use the out loud voice, but still wanting to acknowledge this new, free-spirited method of helping my daughter dedicate her life to follow the teachings of Jesus.

I'm totally reading this in your raspy Darth Vader voice!

Seriously though did it not occur to just wear the garment under the jump suit to avoid the wet P-shirt contest and then go commando for the 2nd half of the ceremony under dark but dry Sunday slacks?

Or are you secretly a religiously reversed voyeur? Defined in DSM-IV, this disorder refers to (for over a period of at least 6 months) having recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving the act of baptizing in front of an unsuspecting crowd of Mormons who don't know you are naked under thin polyester baptismal clothes.

[slavereeno]

"Good to see you, Bishop Smith. Did I forget to mention that I'm not wearing underpants?"

You may have already thought of this, but metal folding chairs are really cold if you are separated from them by only a single layer of polyester-cotton.

[Corsair]

Or are you secretly a religiously reversed voyeur? Defined in DSM-IV, this disorder refers to (for over a period of at least 6 months) having recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving the act of baptizing in front of an unsuspecting crowd of Mormons who don't know you are naked under thin polyester baptismal clothes.

Nice diagnosis, doctor. The daughter I baptized is now in college. She would be hilariously mortified if I revealed this story to her. It's not like this is some felonious sin to baptize sans underpants. That's only the Aaronic part of the ordinance. I was properly wearing the Garment of the Holy Priesthood when I laid hands on her head for the Melchizedek "Gift of the Holy Ghost" ordinance.

Frankly, this is still better than my first experience in the temple wearing only that ridiculous shield for initiatory. Sure, the believers might be mortified knowing that Elder Commando baptized his daughter under "wet t-shirt contest" conditions. But they get all indignant when I bring up how this fresh faced young man experienced some "shrinkage" in the temple with AC on full blast. And then, I was wearing only the second most surprising outfit in the temple that day.

[Linked]

Thanks for all your experiences, it really shows how not alone we are, and how many different ways there are to approach all this. And if I perform the baptism I will be sure to leave my heathen underwear at home.

(The stuff below is more journal entry than anything. Feel free to read and respond if you'd like, but it's mostly just me getting my thoughts out.)

I've been bouncing all over the place with this decision. One day I feel like I'm happy with a decision to just play the part for leadership and get this done(the Corsair course of action). The next day I go back to square one, and end up with a decision to just lay my cards on the table for the bishop and make him tell me no (my family all knows my lack of belief in LDS and I worry that one of them will tell on me even if I pass the discerner. Also, I would prefer not to lie. But then all these things are about me and not my son, so maybe I should just play the part.) Or maybe I should just publicly discard mormonism altogether and let my marriage land where it may.

Ugh.

People are more sensitive to loss than gain. This loss-aversion may be playing a role here. When I decide to play the part for leadership my loss-aversion kicks in and I am acutely aware that I am losing a small bit of integrity and that the inertia of the church has defeated my spirit. The emotion of that loss is intense and overwhelms the other side of the equation, that I've gained a nice moment with my son, that the church has not replaced me as my son's spiritual father, and that my son gets his day with everyone beaming at him. Then it all shifts when I make the decision to be open with the bishop. With that decision I possibly lose the nice moment with my son, the church may replace me as my son's spiritual father, and I lose control over this decision. Now the weight of those is larger than it was because of loss-aversion.

The equation can't be balanced because every time I move toward a course of action it changes the value of each part of the equation!

[Raylan Givens]

Tough spot to be in. I can share from another perspective.

When I was 17 I was asked by my cousin to baptize him and not his dad...that was awkward. I just kind of looked at my uncle and tried to gauge where he was at. He put on a nuetral face, but I could tell it bothered him and I think he knew it was awkward for me too. This was his oldest too...

I regret doing it, but I felt some pressure to comply. I should have given his dad the day and backed out (luckily they had four younger children who were later baptized by my uncle).

I think there is something to baptizing your kiddo. I would feel the same tug as well. If you decide to do it, just go into the process assuming you are baptizing him. Let the BP decide at that point what he is going to do. I bet he doesn't bat an eye and you just move forward with the process.

If you do decide to have someone else do it, maybe give him the choice?

My oldest turns 8 in April. Luckily, DW as of 8 months is out. We will have another hard discussion with family when the time comes.

I now just sit on the sidelines through confirmations, baby blessings, and weddings...I just smile and give them hugs. All I can do now.

[Wonderment]

Frankly, this is still better than my first experience in the temple wearing only that ridiculous shield for initiatory. Sure, the believers might be mortified knowing that Elder Commando baptized his daughter under "wet t-shirt contest" conditions. But they get all indignant when I bring up how this fresh faced young man experienced some "shrinkage" in the temple with AC on full blast. And then, I was wearing only the second most surprising outfit in the temple that day.

Bwahahaha ! Corsair's narrative is hilarious and brings some much needed comic relief to what can be a very stressful and heart-wrenching situation forced on us by the church. Thank you, Corsair, for the day brightener.
Thank you, LInked, for starting this useful and enlightening thread. -- Wndr.