Bill Reel Gets Ultimatum from Stake President

[Archimedes]

I don't know why you would want to put yourself through a church Kangaroo court, especially if you believe in your own mind that the men allied against you have no real power and the proceedings have no bearing on your status in the afterlife. Why let them think they have any control over you? Tell them to f*ck off and let them do what they are going to do anyway, with or without you.

Embarrassing the church as an objective here is (my humble opinion) just plays into the church's narrative that these websites are full of Pawns of Satan that only want to attack and bring the church down.

Why the hell is senior church leadership even involved in this? Don't they have better things to do? The fact that they meddle in these issues that really SHOULD be left up to the local leadership, just makes them appear more weak.

On the other hand, it's hard to resist a good tire fire.

[jfro18]

I am almost positive that John Dehlin mentioned that they did have him either sign or promise not to record, and he honored that because he didn't want them to be able to turn the tables on him from the publicity that surrounded his excommunication.

So I guess Bill could either refuse to sign it, tell them he's going to tape it, or post it knowing they'll try to throw him under the bus. Either way, the church continually trying to shut down dissent is a really bad look, although the only members hearing about it are either ex-Mormons, Mormons who are super into the news but blind to the truth, or the more liberal Mormons who basically have reinvented the church to make it work for them.

I hope if they do end up ex-ing Bill that it gets proper coverage... just not sure it's going to reach the people who might actually be changed by hearing it.

[moksha]

Can we recreate the chain of command and apply some public pressure?

Who reports to whom?

Can we find their phone numbers and start leaving messages of support for Bill?

I understand that when you send them a letter it goes from the post office to the Church Office Building to secretary who then forwards it to your Stake President who will then punish you accordingly. Most likely when you call they will ask for your member ID number so it can be forwarded to your Stake President so he can then punish you for the audacity of not following the chain of command.

[wtfluff]

I don't know why you would want to put yourself through a church Kangaroo court, especially if you believe in your own mind that the men allied against you have no real power and the proceedings have no bearing on your status in the afterlife. Why let them think they have any control over you? Tell them to f*ck off and let them do what they are going to do anyway, with or without you.

If I were ever "summoned" to a court, I've joked about a lot of "funny" things to do, but in reality, I would at least like to look every person in the room in the eyes and tell them that they know absolutely nothing about me, yet they feel the need to judge my so-called eternal progression on hearsay and rumors. What they are doing will do nothing but inujre my family/relatives, and "protect" a greedy, dishonest corporation.

After my "statement," I'd probably gather up all the Raineer Tall-Boys that I had passed around at the beginning of the meeting, and leave. They're not going to enjoy mild barley drinks, I might as well enjoy them myself.


Luckily, I'm a quiet little nobody when it comes to the Corporation. I doubt they'll ever feel the need to call me in for a bouncy court...

[Hagoth]

I am almost positive that John Dehlin mentioned that they did have him either sign or promise not to record, and he honored that because he didn't want them to be able to turn the tables on him from the publicity that surrounded his excommunication.

If I remember correctly he even asked to have someone take notes, which was not allowed, and John was even told that he couldn't take notes.

[Rob4Hope]

It astonishes me that notes are taken by the executive secretary in a court of love, but not allowed by the defendant. The whole court of love is a joke--its a court of intimidation.

I would hate to be the SP and bishop who are being roped into this. Its a firestorm because people like Bill have followers, and the story is gunna be reported one way or another.

I've known Bill, probably for about 7+ years, and have seen this faith transition coming over that period of time. It is no surprise to me that this is finally happening. The thing that IS surprising is its taken SOOO LONG to finally arrive!

You people in HQ who are reading these posts? Integrity matters, and if your church is really "true" as you say, maybe you could answer some of the questions Bill and others have been asking for years!

"The most correct of any book on earth....."

Bahahaha...Yeh right.

[sunstoned]

Bill posted on another forum that he would not end is podcasts, and that he would not resign.

[Not Buying It]

Embarrassing the church as an objective here is (my humble opinion) just plays into the church's narrative that these websites are full of Pawns of Satan that only want to attack and bring the church down.

I think embarrassing the Church is about the only weapon Bill has. He is going into a situation where everything is stacked against him - he can’t even take notes and they can. Fear of embarrassment is the only thing that might stop the machinery of excommunication. Besides, I really hate to see them bully people behind closed doors - the Church needs to be embarrassed about the way it treats its members during Courts of Love.

[Palerider]

Embarrassing the church as an objective here is (my humble opinion) just plays into the church's narrative that these websites are full of Pawns of Satan that only want to attack and bring the church down.

I think embarrassing the Church is about the only weapon Bill has. He is going into a situation where everything is stacked against him - he can’t even take notes and they can. Fear of embarrassment is the only thing that might stop the machinery of excommunication. Besides, I really hate to see them bully people behind closed doors - the Church needs to be embarrassed about the way it treats its members during Courts of Love.

This is why I decided to resign.

If you go the "court of love" route you give them power over your membership fate. Even though they claim it's difficult for them, somewhere deep inside, it's still a power trip.

I wanted my Bishop and SP to know it wasn't up to them to decide. Nothing they could say or do could convince me to stay. You're not excommunicating me....I'm excommunicating you.

[Hagoth]

I wanted my Bishop and SP to know it wasn't up to them to decide. Nothing they could say or do could convince me to stay. You're not excommunicating me....I'm excommunicating you.

The truth is that very few of us will have the option of being called in for a court unless we are as visible as someone like Bill Reel unless we get caught in a more mundane excommunicable violation. That leaves the options of doing something or doing nothing. You chose to do something.

[jfro18]

I wanted my Bishop and SP to know it wasn't up to them to decide. Nothing they could say or do could convince me to stay. You're not excommunicating me....I'm excommunicating you.

The truth is that very few of us will have the option of being called in for a court unless we are as visible as someone like Bill Reel unless we get caught in a more mundane excommunicable violation. That leaves the options of doing something or doing nothing. You chose to do something.

Yep - I'd love to be excommunicated in a public setting if it can show others how absolutely terrified the church is of the truth getting out of their control, but the fact is that the odds of that ever happening are about 0.0001%

So the odds are at some point soon I'll resign just to make sure they can't count my record as a member in their data releases (if they continue to release such info). But for now I am trying to keep the peace with my TBM wife, so that's definitely something I'm not rushing to do.

[Archimedes]

I get that Bill Reel is in a unique situation and it would be a shame to waste an opportunity to shine a light on the side of the church that Church leaders would prefer remain hidden in darkness. My point was more along the lines of it being something I would not have the strength to put myself through. Plus it seems to me that Bill R is one of those folks who really would want to be part of the church if the leadership would pull their heads out of the 1930s. I don't want any part of it any more, having given 33 years to the hopeless cause of trying to maintain affiliation with the church in the undertow of marriage to an increasingly more rabid True Believing wife [may she eat dirt in hell].

You go Bill Reel. Whatever you are trying to accomplish I hope you succeed x4.

[Reuben]

Plus it seems to me that Bill R is one of those folks who really would want to be part of the church if the leadership would pull their heads out of the 1930s.

Thanks for the euphemism. I can't wait to use it!

"Sit your 1930s down on your chair so we can eat."

"Did you remember to wipe your 1930s?"

[Hermey]

Do you think Bill will resign?

Bill will not resign.

Nor will he be told what he can say or how he can say it.

This is headed for the gunfight at the OK Corral.

Mad respect for Bill.

[Newme]

Why are you all worrying about what the SP, bishop or any church leadership says? I don't buy into the existence of God anymore but when I did I always thought that he had more sway in my eternal progression than the opinions of some group of MBAs turned church leadership. Excommunicate me. Disfellowship me. Tell my neighbors not to let their kids play with mine anymore (which they don't since I left the church.) I don't care. Is your life any better in ther church than out? Why put so much stock amd worrying into the decisions of the mental pygmys running the church?

I know this is an old thread, but the bolder above is something I want to remember.

[Apologeticsislying]

Agreed, but on the other hand, they run the church and families are involved, not just ourselves. The issues culturally can run quite deep so there is need at times to be circumspect. I'm just sayin...... and there are times to be bold. ANd there are times to just be even handed.

[sunstoned]

I have lost most of the respect I once held for the top church leaders (Q15). I have come to the conclusion that most of them are not completely honest. This is an opinion I usually keep to myself, especially when I am around family and other TBMS.

[Apologeticsislying]

It just seems to me that with the historical narrative we have now and how the internet has opened up info for all sides to see and learn of, there just sincerely cannot be any doubt the leaders know the full issues and they can't handle it because they too were educated like me (I'm 58 so not so far behind), they are as old as my dad, and I know the narrative he was raised on and what he raised me on. They can fake it pretty good for the generation below me, but mine, after having the internet now for over 20 years? I just have to think they are hoodwinking folks now.

[Palerider]

It just seems to me that with the historical narrative we have now and how the internet has opened up info for all sides to see and learn of, there just sincerely cannot be any doubt the leaders know the full issues and they can't handle it because they too were educated like me (I'm 58 so not so far behind), they are as old as my dad, and I know the narrative he was raised on and what he raised me on. They can fake it pretty good for the generation below me, but mine, after having the internet now for over 20 years? I just have to think they are hoodwinking folks now.

This may be the case with a few.

But I wonder if the majority just "don't go there". I think that small place in the very bottom of their hearts where they have to come face to face with truth; that place where real courage is required to visit.....I think they're deathly afraid to go there. (A lot of us are for various reasons. Doesn't have to be church related.)

For church leadership it means putting ones integrity on the line. It means conflict. It means standing up and giving voice to the truth, regardless of the consequences. It means loss of status and reputation. Loss of approval. It means being seen as a traitor. Loss of adoration. Loss of family. No more being the big fish in the little pond of Mormonism.

It means shame.

Nahhh.... they're NOT going there. As I've said before, I asked a good friend of mine who has her doctorate in Counseling why she thinks the GAs don't go there. She said, "They're in denial".

I said, "There's no such thing as denial. Only cowardice."

[Emower]

I said, "There's no such thing as denial. Only cowardice."

Nope. I'm going to push back hard right here. Would you say that to a Mother who has been informed that a son/daughter has been killed overseas and has not yet been able to grieve because she is in denial? Then why would you say that to anyone else who might face a level of discomfort with what they might learn about their whole life?