Blog post- "Compassion for the Other: Faith and Doubt among Jehovah’s Witnesses"

[BriansThoughtMirror]

As I was going through my faith crisis, I spent a lot of time talking with Jehovah's Witnesses (both current and former), because I wanted to get another perspective on faith and doubt. I found that many of my experiences were so similar to theirs! It was healing to realize that they approach doubt in a way so similar to Mormonism. It made me think the patterns revolving around doubt and questioning are just a normal human phenomenon, not the work of some evil overlord who wants to manipulate and deceive me. It's helped me feel some forgiveness and tolerance. Since then, I've also found parallel ideas about belief and doubt in many faiths (something I intend to write about later).

Still, terrible damage is done when families are divided by religion, especially in religions that demand as much as Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormonism. Jehovah's Witnesses actually shun former members, even if they are family, though there are exceptions. This is an extreme example of the damage that can be done, but it comes from a "tough love" perspective that will feel very familiar to many non-conforming Mormons. I've written some of my thoughts about the practice of shunning, and about having empathy and compassion for those on both sides on my blog. I hope you find it worthwhile!

Here's the link:
https://briansthoughtmirror.wordpress.c ... witnesses/

[Reuben]

Interesting. I also read a lot about Jehovah's Witnesses after my faith crisis. I did it as a way to understand issues relating to unbelief in a fundamentalist religion without being neck-deep in it. What you've written jives with what I remember.

There's a real tragedy here. People take on the attitudes of the groups they strongly identify with. At this point, shunning is nobody's fault, per se: the organization has gotten into a state of collective delusional superiority, and is therefore collectively unwilling to collectively learn. The men who led it into this state are dead. All this pain is from ideological momentum.

When an individual gets like this, he or she either becomes isolated and irrelevant, or finally softens up in the school of hard knocks. (A lucky few become wildly successful, I suppose.) How much of a beating is required depends on how perceptive and honest the person is. If this at all extends to groups, I don't have much hope that the Witnesses realize the collective error of their collective ways. By all accounts, they're even more self-deceptive (read: opposite of honest) and authoritarian (read: opposite of perceptive) than the Mormons.

While respecting each person’s right to believe what they feel is true, what advice can you give to people on either side of this painful divide?

I don't think I could give useful advice to the shunners. They would need to imagine that the Governing Body could possibly be wrong about something first. That's a bigger no-no than doubting the Mormon prophet.

To the shunnees (which really should be word), I would say keep occasionally reaching out, but don't get your hopes up. In the meantime, build a new family, because everyone needs one. And be very careful to not act out on the pain.

[deacon blues]

Wow! I'm shocked that JW's teach shunning and justify it, using the Bible, of course. I'm glad LDS authorities don't do this. I can still visit with family and friends and rarely feel out of place.

[BriansThoughtMirror]

There's a real tragedy here. People take on the attitudes of the groups they strongly identify with. At this point, shunning is nobody's fault, per se: the organization has gotten into a state of collective delusional superiority, and is therefore collectively unwilling to collectively learn. The men who led it into this state are dead. All this pain is from ideological momentum.

This is such an interesting idea! I remember reading a while back a post in which someone said that they needed someone to feel pain and remorse for the damage done to them from religious conflicts. But, they said, at this point, it was no individual's fault. Everyone is kind of swept along with the social momentum (I don't think that was the wording they used, but the idea was similar). To some extent, we are all just victims. It's no single human's fault, but an organization can't feel sorrow or remorse. This made it hard for the person to move on.

[BriansThoughtMirror]

Wow! I'm shocked that JW's teach shunning and justify it, using the Bible, of course. I'm glad LDS authorities don't do this. I can still visit with family and friends and rarely feel out of place.

No kidding! While I found lots of similarities in Witness rhetoric and practices, there's nothing in Mormonism that is anything like shunning. It helps me feel like my life is not so hard!

[IT_Veteran]

Wow! I'm shocked that JW's teach shunning and justify it, using the Bible, of course. I'm glad LDS authorities don't do this. I can still visit with family and friends and rarely feel out of place.

No kidding! While I found lots of similarities in Witness rhetoric and practices, there's nothing in Mormonism that is anything like shunning. It helps me feel like my life is not so hard!

I think that depends on the individuals. Although the church doesn't teach shunning, there are plenty of examples of it out there amongst the Exmo crowd. Parents and friends will cut people off completely because they're afraid. They fear other children being "led astray" by those of us that have left.

[BriansThoughtMirror]

I think that depends on the individuals. Although the church doesn't teach shunning, there are plenty of examples of it out there amongst the Exmo crowd. Parents and friends will cut people off completely because they're afraid. They fear other children being "led astray" by those of us that have left.

Yeah, that's true. It's just not official or heavily enforced, I think (there is the bit in TR interviews about whether you associate with apostates, though). In fact, I've heard people in church say that we SHOULD be friends with people, regardless of beliefs, even if -gasp- they're gay! There are some who will shun without calling it that, and there are some who will still be your friend. I've been pretty lucky. I know lots of others aren't.

The other thing I've noticed is that you can lose closeness in relationships. Things can easily become superficial. I don't really know how to fix that, but I don't think it's deliberate. Maybe it's fear, maybe it's just not having much in common anymore, or not knowing how to relate. It's all sad.

[Corsair]

I think that Jehovah's Witnesses have it harder than Mormons. The temple recommend is a pretty big barrier in LDS culture, but at no time would my parents have entirely shunned me. I can only imagine the catastrophe of mixed-faith marriages within Jehovah's Witnesses.

[BriansThoughtMirror]

I think that Jehovah's Witnesses have it harder than Mormons.

Agreed. It kinda puts things in a different perspective for me.

[IT_Veteran]

The other thing I've noticed is that you can lose closeness in relationships. Things can easily become superficial. I don't really know how to fix that, but I don't think it's deliberate. Maybe it's fear, maybe it's just not having much in common anymore, or not knowing how to relate. It's all sad.

I've noticed this as well. It's like the elephant in the room that nobody wants to acknowledge, discuss, or even look at. My conversations with my mom are now relegated to talking about my kids, or listening to her stories about the testimony-strengthening experiences she has. There's little for us to talk about. Similar situation with my in-laws that are visiting right now. We're cordial, even friendly, but discuss absolutely nothing of substance.

This is as much my fault as anyone else's. As it turns out, even though I've known these people for 20 years or more (or my entire life in some cases) we just have very little to talk about that is unrelated to their faith.

[Linked]

There's a real tragedy here. People take on the attitudes of the groups they strongly identify with. At this point, shunning is nobody's fault, per se: the organization has gotten into a state of collective delusional superiority, and is therefore collectively unwilling to collectively learn. The men who led it into this state are dead. All this pain is from ideological momentum.

This is such an interesting idea! I remember reading a while back a post in which someone said that they needed someone to feel pain and remorse for the damage done to them from religious conflicts. But, they said, at this point, it was no individual's fault. Everyone is kind of swept along with the social momentum (I don't think that was the wording they used, but the idea was similar). To some extent, we are all just victims. It's no single human's fault, but an organization can't feel sorrow or remorse. This made it hard for the person to move on.

This is something I have bounced around a lot too. Thanks for the succinct description of the issue. The painful situations disaffected mormons find themselves in aren't really anybody's fault. It's not their parent's fault as they were "duped" too. It's not the current prophet's fault as he was also duped. It's not Joseph Smith's fault, the doctrine and culture today have changed from what he molded. With that said, the current and former church leadership probably shoulder the most blame as they set the rules.

When people are frustrated with "The Church" that social/idealogical momentum is often the culprit. I would consider the lack of an honorable way to separate from the mormon or JW religions a Wicked Problem.

[Linked]

The other thing I've noticed is that you can lose closeness in relationships. Things can easily become superficial. I don't really know how to fix that, but I don't think it's deliberate. Maybe it's fear, maybe it's just not having much in common anymore, or not knowing how to relate. It's all sad.

I've noticed this as well. It's like the elephant in the room that nobody wants to acknowledge, discuss, or even look at. My conversations with my mom are now relegated to talking about my kids, or listening to her stories about the testimony-strengthening experiences she has. There's little for us to talk about. Similar situation with my in-laws that are visiting right now. We're cordial, even friendly, but discuss absolutely nothing of substance.

This is as much my fault as anyone else's. As it turns out, even though I've known these people for 20 years or more (or my entire life in some cases) we just have very little to talk about that is unrelated to their faith.

I've bumped into this as well. My very close but fully TBM friend is now distancing himself where he didn't used to. We had one open discussion about faith and he was extremely uncomfortable; we both tried to be supportive and understanding but he just couldn't bear hearing the words. It's tough. With the rest of my TBMs I've tried really hard to just focus on what we do have and it has gone pretty well for the people I actually have other things in common with.

[Corsair]

This is something I have bounced around a lot too. Thanks for the succinct description of the issue. The painful situations disaffected mormons find themselves in aren't really anybody's fault. It's not their parent's fault as they were "duped" too. It's not the current prophet's fault as he was also duped. It's not Joseph Smith's fault, the doctrine and culture today have changed from what he molded. With that said, the current and former church leadership probably shoulder the most blame as they set the rules.

This has been one of the bigger surprises of apostasy that I keep hearing about. I have been an undercover unbeliever for a long time. My wife knows and we have achieved some peace over our mixed faith marriage. But I have told almost no one outside of my immediate family because I do not want to unnecessarily burden any of the close relationships I have with my siblings and father. It might be fine, but this is a one way street and there is virtually no way to return to the previous relationship once this apostate cat leaves the testimony bag. As it stands, I'm the iconoclast brother who still faithfully attends church. I certainly don't share my love of black coffee with them.

I have grown to accept this prevarication in continued support of siblings, nieces, nephews, and cousins that really don't want to deal with any level of apostasy. I hear too many reports of people leaving the church and no one wants to talk to them about out. It's getting silly when I even hear from FairMormon talks about how we really do need to connect with unbelieving friends and family. But LDS culture simply cannot handle this level of honesty.

And part of the reason I continue is to avoid one of the most insidious, passive-aggressive forms of LDS shunning: temple attendance. The believers in your life act like it is such a shame that you can't attend the temple. It never crosses their mind that perhaps if my daughter/son/niece/nephew would get married publicly, outside the temple that all this awkwardness could be avoided. It would not violate any doctrine at all with a public ceremony. Mormon children never attend weddings and only know how they operated by watching movies about non-Mormons.

The rise of encouraging proxy baptisms by the youth is a new twist on needing a temple recommend. I didn't have to awkwardly wait outside of the Nauvoo temple when my family visited there last month. I even performed the baptisms. Thank goodness that funerals are not attached to the temple. The unintentional shunning is already bad enough.

[IT_Veteran]

I hear too many reports of people leaving the church and no one wants to talk to them about out. It's getting silly when I even hear from FairMormon talks about how we really do need to connect with unbelieving friends and family. But LDS culture simply cannot handle this level of honesty.

This is a major point that shouldn't go unnoticed. Even in the absence of complete shunning, this is still problematic. No, it's not as bad as what JW's deal with, but it's still painful for the unbeliever/former member. Every time I see my family and in-laws, I mentally prepare myself for the onslaught of questions that never come. RM's, parents, nobody ever asks anything. All I wish for when it comes to these interactions is something like "I don't agree with your conclusions, but what information made led to your unbelief?" It's a seemingly simple question that everyone is terrified to ask.

Sometimes I think they're as afraid of offending me by asking as I am of offending them by telling. So instead there's just this distance that nobody can seem to cross.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

I hear too many reports of people leaving the church and no one wants to talk to them about out. It's getting silly when I even hear from FairMormon talks about how we really do need to connect with unbelieving friends and family. But LDS culture simply cannot handle this level of honesty.

This is a major point that shouldn't go unnoticed. Even in the absence of complete shunning, this is still problematic. No, it's not as bad as what JW's deal with, but it's still painful for the unbeliever/former member. Every time I see my family and in-laws, I mentally prepare myself for the onslaught of questions that never come. RM's, parents, nobody ever asks anything. All I wish for when it comes to these interactions is something like "I don't agree with your conclusions, but what information made led to your unbelief?" It's a seemingly simple question that everyone is terrified to ask.

Sometimes I think they're as afraid of offending me by asking as I am of offending them by telling. So instead there's just this distance that nobody can seem to cross.

I call this the force field of cognitive dissonance. You are the embodiment of cognitive discomfort to your family and friends now. I kind of like this situation. I never get asked to do uncomfortable religious activities anymore by the tribe.

[Linked]

I hear too many reports of people leaving the church and no one wants to talk to them about out. It's getting silly when I even hear from FairMormon talks about how we really do need to connect with unbelieving friends and family. But LDS culture simply cannot handle this level of honesty.

This is a major point that shouldn't go unnoticed. Even in the absence of complete shunning, this is still problematic. No, it's not as bad as what JW's deal with, but it's still painful for the unbeliever/former member. Every time I see my family and in-laws, I mentally prepare myself for the onslaught of questions that never come. RM's, parents, nobody ever asks anything. All I wish for when it comes to these interactions is something like "I don't agree with your conclusions, but what information made led to your unbelief?" It's a seemingly simple question that everyone is terrified to ask.

Sometimes I think they're as afraid of offending me by asking as I am of offending them by telling. So instead there's just this distance that nobody can seem to cross.

I agree. Going to family gatherings is stressful because you aren't sure if you will be asked difficult questions, or if someone will bring up a difficult topic for you. It rarely happens, but it's always in the back of your mind.

My sis-in-law asked about my beliefs at a recent family gathering with everyone around. She apologized as she asked, like I would be offended by it. I told her that I would prefer it to be an open topic than a taboo one and we talked about it briefly. It was nice. Unfortunately my DW was not happy about it and would rather it be a taboo topic that is not broached, so that may not happen again...

[BriansThoughtMirror]

Sometimes I think they're as afraid of offending me by asking as I am of offending them by telling. So instead there's just this distance that nobody can seem to cross.

No kidding. This problem already existed in another part of my family. Some of my extended family is Mormon, and some of them are fairly fundamentalist Christian. Religion is a painful topic, and how my parents dealt with it was to just never talk about it. Once my Dad offered my non-Mormon grandma a blessing when she was in the hospital, and she broke down in tears. She asked him not to. I guess I learned plenty of avoidance behaviors from my whole family. We're pretty bad about discussing hard stuff anyway...

As for the temple- yeah, that's sad. I never really thought about it until after my faith crisis. I felt awful that my BIL traveled across the continent from another country to wait outside at my wedding. At least he took a trip to Vegas afterwards, haha!

Yeah, we don't get officially shunned, but there's still plenty of pain inflicted. I wonder if maybe just a little of it is from my own worrying? I tend to think a lot about potential disasters that could occur in my relationships, and I worry a lot about what people think of me. It's probably unnecessary, but I still do it. I saw an anonymous quote that said:
“In your 20’s and 30’s, you worry about what other people think. In your 40’s and 50’s you stop worrying about what other people think. Finally in your 60’s and 70’s, you realize they were never thinking about you in the first place!”

Maybe that's true? Maybe people don't spend all that much time thinking about what caused us to leave, because they just don't think about us all that much? Maybe I flatter myself to think I'm being discussed behind my back. Maybe when I'm not there, no one cares. Just thinking out loud.

The looks of sadness I get from my FIL when he asks, "how are you?" and tells me to "hang in there" drive me nuts, though.