Responding to a request for lunch with a slap in the face

[Reuben]

I'm still unsure of whether I should have done this. At least it should be interesting.

Out of the blue, the Elders Quorum President emailed, asking about having lunch this week. I barely know him. Running on 2.5 hours of sleep, I sent the following reply.

*****

Not this week. I’ll need a day in the middle of some time off. I’m planning to have some within the next two months. I’ll let you know when.

You should know that there’s very little you can do if your goal is to bring me back. My problems aren’t with you or the ward specifically, but with the church’s collective arrogance, pervasive self-deception, culture of shame, and frequent hate speech against me and mine. It's a sick organization, starting from the very top, and it blames people like me for its ills.

I can’t trust it. I'll only trust you personally to the extent that you’re willing to reject the unquestioned, harmful bullshit proclaimed from the church’s Rameumptoms.

In case it’s not clear, I’m done being polite and circumspect. Take me or leave me as I am.

[Just This Guy]

Blunt and to the point. Best of luck with it.

[moksha]

Seemed a bit harsh. Leaving it at "it would be nice to meet with you when I can find the time, but I don't want to be reactivated" would have sufficed. Sometimes when you are running on 2.5 hours sleep it is hard to call upon the forces of social niceties to back you up, but graciousness rather than in your face confrontation is what Confucius would have recommended.

[IT_Veteran]

Probably not the route I would have gone, but I don’t think you’ll have to worry about his motives after that. Either he’ll ignore you from here on out, or he’ll go to lunch with you and have a great conversation that doesn’t involve the church.

Sometimes we run out of things to worry about losing. When you’re no longer worried about how the church will treat your unbelief, this is what you end up with. Frankly, I can be nice but I don’t think it’s necessary all the time in the way I used to.

[Reuben]

Seemed a bit harsh. Leaving it at "it would be nice to meet with you when I can find the time, but I don't want to be reactivated" would have sufficed. Sometimes when you are running on 2.5 hours sleep it is hard to call upon the forces of social niceties to back you up, but graciousness rather than in your face confrontation is what Confucius would have recommended.

Yeah, Confucius is cool. Thanks for reminding me. I just replied with the following.

*****

I'm sorry. You reached out, and I slapped you in the face.

Not an excuse, but an explanation: I'm running on 2.5 hours of sleep today, still staving off depression, and facing stress at work. Today, I'm using anger to function, and finding it easy to lash out at threats and sources of pain. Make no mistake: the church has betrayed me. It makes my burden heavy so that others' burdens can be light.

Where I went wrong is in doing something I accuse church leaders of: I drew a line and attacked you as one of "them." I forgot that you're not the church. I forgot that you're a real person. I forgot that when I draw a line like that, Jesus always sits on the other side of it.

I hope you can forgive me, and that we can start again.

[Reuben]

Probably not the route I would have gone, but I don’t think you’ll have to worry about his motives after that. Either he’ll ignore you from here on out, or he’ll go to lunch with you and have a great conversation that doesn’t involve the church.

Sometimes we run out of things to worry about losing. When you’re no longer worried about how the church will treat your unbelief, this is what you end up with. Frankly, I can be nice but I don’t think it’s necessary all the time in the way I used to.

At very least, he'll know he's working with someone unstable. It'll keep him on his toes.

One thing I've noticed about myself is that when I'm in defense mode, my reasoning tends to be sound, but my feelings and interpersonal strategies are all over the place. Everything I said about the church's behavior was true as far as I can verify it. "I can't trust it" is a good conclusion. But "I'll only trust you personally to the extent that you're willing to reject the unquestioned, harmful bullshit" is vastly overprotective and an insult to his dignity. If I were to approach him like I approach every other human being on the planet, I would trust him unless he proved himself untrustworthy.

[Mackman]

Great response , I just wish I had the courage to be that blunt and to the point !!!! Best of luck

[Not Buying It]

I suppose he was trying to reach out - but members should realize that if they don't already have a relationship of some kind with someone, when they invite them to lunch out of the blue its pretty clear they have an agenda. Furthermore, it is clear they aren’t reaching out because they value you as a person, but because they feel some kind of obligation to try and find the lost sheep. It’s not you as a person he is reaching out to, it is you as a reactivation effort.

[jfro18]

It's such a tough thing -- the people still in church are not only hardwired to think they can bring you back, but they're being told by leadership to constantly reach out and lovebomb you.

You apologized and hopefully they'll move on - outbursts happen and you were quick to send a note letting him know that he caught you at a bad time.

I wish the church respected people's wishes to walk away, but as the missionaries showing up exactly when my wife and I started having deeper discussions about the church tells you - they have absolutely no respect for people's wishes or privacy.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

In my experience, silence and a wry smile when they are attempting to testify brings more frustration and discomfort to the rescuer than bluntness. Sometimes being blunt is a good therapy outlet though.

[IT_Veteran]

I like the apology, well done.

[wtfluff]

Great response , I just wish I had the courage to be that blunt and to the point !!!! Best of luck.

Heh. That's kind of what I was thinking too.

Hey, free lunch is free lunch though, right? The other party is paying, no?

[alas]

I think the honest first reaction was at least educational to a TBM. I don't think they have any concept that we do not want to be fixed because we don't consider ourselves broken. We are not lost sheep, but escaped slaves. We don't want to be found and returned to the fold. Maybe someone in the first stages of questioning would like someone to reach out with real answers, but by the time we stop attending, NOMs pretty much know there are no good answers, so, people thinking they can fix us is just insulting. So, I think a bit of education is in order. It is arrogant to think you have the only truth, so find out if people want your efforts to change them before you suggest they need changing. The top leadership tell sweet stories about how people really believe deep inside and want to come back but are just afraid and they need someone to reach out to them...bla bla bla. So, I think striking down some of the myths of why people leave is educational, painful maybe, but educational.

[achilles]

I think I want to take you to lunch... What's your 20?

[Lithium Sunset]

Haha! That was very blunt indeed!

He did have an agenda I’m sure. You may have been harsh but goodness, if it was wrong, let us be wrong sometimes! You (all of us) are doing the best we can most of the time. That said, I think you did they right thing by following up with a second message. It shows your character.

Hope he leaves you alone and you can get some rest. Don’t stress about it, sounds like you have bigger fish to fry.

[foolmeonce]

I think it all depends on your social intentions with your ward. If you’re looking to maintain relationships and friendships, then you came in way too hot and might be avoided. If instead you're seeking to be left alone, you may not have been forceful enough. This guy is NOT acting out of the kindness of his heart or desire to make a new friend. He may have deluded himself into thinking that, but don’t let him fool you. He’s acting as part of the Mormon machine. Just a blind, dumb, cog doing what it’s designed to do. (As a former cog, i feel like I’m entitled to say that).

When we moved to DFW, I drew a hard line with the EQP, then the missionaries, then the Bishop, then the Bishop again. It took several tries, and DFW still gets VT letters in the mail, but in general we’ve been left alone for the past 2 years. In that time, we’ve developed lots of meaningful friendships with people of our choosing.

[Hermey]

I think the honest first reaction was at least educational to a TBM. I don't think they have any concept that we do not want to be fixed because we don't consider ourselves broken. We are not lost sheep, but escaped slaves. We don't want to be found and returned to the fold. Maybe someone in the first stages of questioning would like someone to reach out with real answers, but by the time we stop attending, NOMs pretty much know there are no good answers, so, people thinking they can fix us is just insulting. So, I think a bit of education is in order. It is arrogant to think you have the only truth, so find out if people want your efforts to change them before you suggest they need changing. The top leadership tell sweet stories about how people really believe deep inside and want to come back but are just afraid and they need someone to reach out to them...bla bla bla. So, I think striking down some of the myths of why people leave is educational, painful maybe, but educational.

Really hits the sure sign of the nail on the head and answers the question of what is wanted.

[moksha]

I think reaching out to others is good. Sometimes the reach out message could be fine-tuned. Perhaps something like this: "We wish you well on your spiritual journey and want you to know we care about you no matter where your journey takes you."

[Hagoth]

I think reaching out to others is good. Sometimes the reach out message could be fine-tuned. Perhaps something like this: "We wish you well on your spiritual journey and want you to know we care about you no matter where your journey takes you."

Penguins tend to think everything is freezing over, including hell.

[moksha]

Penguins tend to think everything is freezing over, including hell.

The moment where all things are possible!