Being Authentic

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
User avatar
Palerider
Posts: 2284
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:44 am

Re: Being Authentic

Post by Palerider »

Advocate wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:41 am I think Cook would have done better to encourage youth to be Christlike, which includes being authentic on social media. Of course, he would never do that because that could lead to youth actually sharing their doubts rather than pretending like they are super-spiritual.
+1

Look at the reverse of this misguided theory:

"Be Christ-like even if it means being phony....."

Makes total sense doesn't it?

Being "phony" is a type of dishonesty. And we know what Christ thought of that. But who is most important here? Christ..... or Mr. Cook? The church would tell you Cook is the man to follow. Emphasis on "man".
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington
User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 7339
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Being Authentic

Post by Hagoth »

Advocate wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:41 amHis comment doesn't make sense to me. Was Christ not authentic? Do mormons believe that Chris was inauthentic? In my mind, if I am being Christlike then I am being authentic.
That's because he's speaking in code, as LDS leaders always do. In this case, being Christlike means being obedient to the church. Often that is the antithesis to being authentic. When a bishop discovers that one of the priesthood holders in his ward is a pedophile his authentic reaction might be to call the police and get protect the child and get help for the man to prevent future occurrances, but his "Christlike" response will be to call the legal hotline, as instructed in the Handbook of "Christlike" Instructions.

With my disaffection I have become more and more aware of this insider code talk. If you listen carefully to General Conference talks, when they talk about God, God's commandments, obedience to God, the Gospel, Scripture, Spirit, etc. you can replace the words God, Gospel, Scripture, Spirit, etc. with the words Church or Church leaders and you will get the real meaning. As I have said many times before, this is the church of the church. Individual Mormons may have a personal relationship with God and/or Jesus, but at the institutional level we worship the church and its components: the leaders, the founder, the temple, missionary work, tithing, obedience, genealogy, etc. These are the things we talk about in our "worship" services. This is not gospel, it is the church. We thank the oh church for the church.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
User avatar
Palerider
Posts: 2284
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:44 am

Re: Being Authentic

Post by Palerider »

Hagoth wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:53 am ....we worship the church and its components: the leaders, the founder, the temple, missionary work, tithing, obedience, genealogy, etc.
Which kind of brings up the concept of "infallibility" or maybe pre-determined conclusion is a better way to put it?

I once told a poster on another pro-mormon website that Heavenly Father had given me confirmation that the BofM is false scripture. (Which is true by the way.)

She immediately wrote that this was impossible. Couldn't happen.

If one arrives at a different conclusion regarding the authenticity of Mormon prophets, scripture or temple, than the accepted Mormon testimony......you're either sinful, insincere, didn’t try hard enough or legally insane. Take your pick.

And that's why it's okay to substitute those things for God. They all stand between God and the member. There is no direct line between members and God even though leadership will TELL you there is.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington
User avatar
moksha
Posts: 5337
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: Being Authentic

Post by moksha »

Kurt Vonnegut's thought that we become what we pretend to be is the basis of much testimony making in the LDS Church. So if people pretend to be Christ-like by emulating the virtues of love, mercy, and forgiveness, then hopefully this will become ingrained in their general nature.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha
User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 7339
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Being Authentic

Post by Hagoth »

moksha wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:27 pm Kurt Vonnegut's thought that we become what we pretend to be is the basis of much testimony making in the LDS Church. So if people pretend to be Christ-like by emulating the virtues of love, mercy, and forgiveness, then hopefully this will become ingrained in their general nature.
It can also be the path to our old friend hypocrisy.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
User avatar
Mad Jax
Posts: 502
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:55 pm

Re: Being Authentic

Post by Mad Jax »

Bremguy wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:13 pm From Advocate over in the Girls Camp thread --
As much as the church gives lip service to being authentic, we all know that it is just lip service and the culture doesn't bear it out. If you don't believe it, try bringing up something you struggle with in gospel doctrine on Sunday and see how it is received and how people treat you afterwords. The church and most churchgoers are not comfortable with being authentic, they'd rather see a nice clean surface and not dive into the condition of what lies below.
I have brought up my past drinking, drugging, and smoking in my distant past, some 29 years ago. I have gotten some funny looks. I have also mentioned I traveled to Haight Ashbury a few times in my teen years and tried some of the local culture. LOL My background is NOT the typical LDS type, no mission, convert, etc. I used to drag race, both legally and some street.

Some people will bring up that Church is a hospital for sinners and the like, but it ends up being more like an art museum, all nice and pretty. When life isn't always kind or favorable to one.
This is only tangentially related and I hope I'm not derailing the original intention of the thread.

I've been a little too willing to let a conflict become physical in the past, and the first time I got into a fight after joining the church, I felt extremely guilty about it. The guy I got into it with looked like he was pretty f**ked up afterward, and it might have been legally justified (I didn't stick around to find out) - almost certainly it was - but still I felt very guilty.

So I ended up confessing to the bishop the next Sunday. I figured he might even tell me to go to law enforcement, and I was even willing, because I just wanted the guilt to end. To my surprise, he was basically saying "No big deal, people get into fights all the time in church basketball, it's not a problem. Boys will be boys." And I guess I was "absolved."

Not too long before or after, I can't remember which, the issue of confessing masturbation came up in sacrament. The biggest issue on the planet for single members. And my god, the self loathing of some of those who struggled with it. The massive problems the church prioritizes such as becoming lackadaisical in scripture reading, or putting off home teaching until the second or even the third week of the month, or even the horror of leaving after sacrament and skipping the other two hours, all seemed to be of far more importance than somebody confessing something that actually hurt someone. And if a guy is prone to getting into fights, shouldn't the bishop be a little more concerned for his (or her, I suppose) likelihood of getting injured? (Which has happened by the way. I'm not Jason Bourne, people have gotten the better of me. I've suffered a few cracked bones during my time.)

I just wonder sometimes how it is that such issues have become so front and center, and the Occam's razor answer really does seem to be that those admonitions are all a system of control. Given all the assumptions necessary to conclude that the church has every member's best interest at its heart, the one that says they just want members to lockstep seems to require far fewer.

Anyway I hope this is in the spirit of the thread - the church's priority on what members need and not what the organization of the church needs.
Free will is a golden thread flowing through the matrix of fixed events.
Reuben
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:01 pm

Re: Being Authentic

Post by Reuben »

Mad Jax wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:47 pm Not too long before or after, I can't remember which, the issue of confessing masturbation came up in sacrament. The biggest issue on the planet for single members. And my god, the self loathing of some of those who struggled with it. The massive problems the church prioritizes such as becoming lackadaisical in scripture reading, or putting off home teaching until the second or even the third week of the month, or even the horror of leaving after sacrament and skipping the other two hours, all seemed to be of far more importance than somebody confessing something that actually hurt someone. And if a guy is prone to getting into fights, shouldn't the bishop be a little more concerned for his (or her, I suppose) likelihood of getting injured? (Which has happened by the way. I'm not Jason Bourne, people have gotten the better of me. I've suffered a few cracked bones during my time.)

I just wonder sometimes how it is that such issues have become so front and center, and the Occam's razor answer really does seem to be that those admonitions are all a system of control. Given all the assumptions necessary to conclude that the church has every member's best interest at its heart, the one that says they just want members to lockstep seems to require far fewer.
I think there are actually two questions, here.

I've been developing a theory about the first one, which is "Why are Mormons much more motivated to conform than to actually be good?" I think the answer relates to what the church values as a social group and how the church interprets common human emotions.

Basically, it's really about belonging and shame, but it's hard to tell because the church claims ownership of the associated psychological states on behalf of God.

Almost everyone in the world has felt emotions that Mormons claim are God's witnesses of truth or signs of his approval. All of them are to some degree self-transcendent, meaning that the self and its current pains and threats take a back seat for a bit. Not only do they feel great, but in my opinion, as intensely social creatures, we need them to in order to be mentally healthy, too. There are some, like the feeling that you're worthwhile and truly belong, that require you to feel that your tribe values you.

The Mormon tribe has explicitly defined how members who are valued think and act, and says that God demands it (more or less). The more you conform to these demands, the more you feel like you have God's favor - especially as you conform to requirements to enter the temple. The less you conform, the more you feel guilt for coming up short.

Or so you think. If that were actually true, habitual fighting would (ideally) be worse than habitual smoking. But I don't know any Mormon who would feel closer to God if he or she gave up fighting by smoking to keep calm.

Here's what's really going on. The more you conform, the more you feel like your tribe values you, unlocking more of that wonderful self-transcendent experience. The less you conform, the more you fear rejection by your tribe/God (same thing, really); i.e. you experience not just guilt, but also shame. It's hard to have self-transcendent experiences that depend on being valued by your tribe when you anticipate being less valued, leaving you to feel distant from God, which compounds your distress. Doctrines that tie closeness to God with personal righteousness, especially those about being saved by becoming pure on your own with a little help from Jesus, make this compounding effect worse.

On the other hand, if you don't regard thinking or acting a certain way as required to be valued by your tribe, you only experience guilt when you slip up. In other words, fighting makes you feel guilty, but smoking makes you feel guilty and also ashamed, so it feels much worse.

I think the question "Why does the church value X, Y or Z as a social group?" is much harder to answer. In a sense, exactly what it values is unimportant. Visible in-group markers in particular, which mostly serve to maintain group cohesion, can be pretty damn arbitrary.

I have a hunch, though, that the church's obsession with personal purity has something to do with the anxieties of some of its past and present leaders. The church also seems to increase the value of some things in response to perceived internal or external threats. It also has to keep itself staffed and running. These things all get talked about, preached about, and doubled down on. The ones that are in some way measured, where the outcome of measurement is known to high-status members (e.g. ministering or home teaching numbers) or some aspect of the outcome is publicly observable (e.g. whether you take the sacrament) are the most salient, because they most directly engage the mechanisms behind belonging and shame.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.
Post Reply