Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
slavereeno wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 9:55 am
Some of this polygamy essay reads like a logic puzzle you may find on an exam.
Zina Jacobs was married to a man, she and the man had a child together, when that man was on a mission, she was married to the first prophet, after the first prophet died, she married the second prophet, after the judgement day who's wife will Zina Jacobs be?
a) The first man she married
b) The first prophet
c) the second prophet
d) none of thee above
No, no, NO!
This is a trick question posed by Pharisees and Sadducees.
Matthew:
3"The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, 24Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. 25Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: 26Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. 27And last of all the woman died also. 28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her."
And the answer is???
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."
"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."
Palerider wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 10:46 am
Matthew:
3"The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, 24Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. 25Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: 26Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. 27And last of all the woman died also. 28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her."
And the answer is???
Wait a minute... How come Jesus didn't just say something about sealings and eternal marriage in his answer?
Here's a good one. I had misspelled Neil L. Andersen's name as Anderson, and GoogleDoc's spellchecker caught it. It's a pretty impressive checker. I have noticed in lecture classes that when the professor says the name of an obscure Mayan or Aztec god I just have to take a wild guess at it and Google always knows who it is.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Hagoth wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 4:12 pm
Here's a good one. I had misspelled Neil L. Andersen's name as Anderson, and GoogleDoc's spellchecker caught it. It's a pretty impressive checker. I have noticed in lecture classes that when the professor says the name of an obscure Mayan or Aztec god I just have to take a wild guess at it and Google always knows who it is.
Hagoth, were those post-1890 plural marriages, including the ones in Chihuahua, authorized or sanctioned by church leaders? Or rather, at what level were they authorized?
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.
Plural marriage was introduced among the early Saints incrementally, and participants were asked to keep their actions confidential.
What the hell? Don't they really mean "told to keep their actions secret or their lives were forfeit"? Besides the endowment, isn't there evidence of the oaths they had to take?
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.
Polygamy and polyandry must really be a high priority in God’s plan. One wonders how they were they so easily dismissed with a letter written by Wilford Woodruff to “whom it may concern?”
I think this would come across as disingenuous to a TBM. Mormons were prepared to lose everything to keep practicing polygamy. After all, they had been taught that it was essential to exaltation.
It just occurred to me that teachings in the 1800s were more consistent with God thinking polygamy was important enough to send an angel.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.
The authors of this official church essay, approved by the First Presidency, are looking you in the eye and with a straight face asking you to not only believe this story, but to embrace it as morally commendable. God really, really wanted Joseph Smith to have sex with a lot of girls and women by whatever means necessary. Personally, I find the institutional endorsement of this story very unsettling.
Same. The problem is that they can't repudiate or even distance themselves from the story without calling every one of Joseph's revelations into question. They want us to be certain that every one of them is from God, no picking and choosing. They're trying to set the boundary between good Mormons and bad Mormons so that the good ones have "strong testimonies" - including strong testimonies of them.
To do this, they have to endorse something morally reprehensible. Hmm... something about fruits...
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.
Reuben wrote: ↑Thu May 10, 2018 12:49 am
Hagoth, were those post-1890 plural marriages, including the ones in Chihuahua, authorized or sanctioned by church leaders? Or rather, at what level were they authorized?
I'm fairly certain there were numerous plural marriages approved by the church between 1890 and the second manifesto of 1904. I'll try to find the documentation. In the meantime ponder this quote.
"Apostle Abraham H. Cannon gave some instructions about polygamy that indicated one dimension of this question: "It is good to always tell the truth, but not always to tell the whole of what we know."48
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."
"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."
The authors of this official church essay, approved by the First Presidency, are looking you in the eye and with a straight face asking you to not only believe this story, but to embrace it as morally commendable. God really, really wanted Joseph Smith to have sex with a lot of girls and women by whatever means necessary. Personally, I find the institutional endorsement of this story very unsettling.
Same. The problem is that they can't repudiate or even distance themselves from the story without calling every one of Joseph's revelations into question. They want us to be certain that every one of them is from God, no picking and choosing. They're trying to set the boundary between good Mormons and bad Mormons so that the good ones have "strong testimonies" - including strong testimonies of them.
To do this, they have to endorse something morally reprehensible. Hmm... something about fruits...
Yep. This is why I can never be a believer again - because I know I would have to accept morally reprehensible things to be one.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph
slavereeno wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 12:56 pm
Wait a minute... How come Jesus didn't just say something about sealings and eternal marriage in his answer?
Records before the restoration are incomplete or distorted. The answers in the Bible were simply waiting for the prophet of the Last Dispensation before the coming of Gozer.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha
Reuben wrote: ↑Thu May 10, 2018 1:05 am
Nit on your comments:
Polygamy and polyandry must really be a high priority in God’s plan. One wonders how they were they so easily dismissed with a letter written by Wilford Woodruff to “whom it may concern?”
I think this would come across as disingenuous to a TBM. Mormons were prepared to lose everything to keep practicing polygamy. After all, they had been taught that it was essential to exaltation.
Maybe you can help me find a better way to put it into words, Reuben. It is the fact that polygamy was such a focal point of Mormon doctrine, and the very fact that people would have given whatever was asked of them to sustain it, that makes it so surprising that the leaders could simply write a non-revelatory letter to put an end to it, and that later prophets could disavow it as having never been doctrinal. All the more perplexing when the essay demands that God literally sent a celestial hitman to ensure that it got off to a solid start. Polygamy was Major Mormon Doctrine Numero Uno from the moment the saints landed in Salt Lake right up to the point Woodruff signed that document. It was the solution to the world's perversions that stemmed from monogamy. It was the theme of Mormonism.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
