For those who stopped believing, how *sure* are you that the church is a lie and what makes you so sure?

[Rob4Hope]

This is the reason our TBM spouses and family don't want to discuss it. Most of these people actually know there is information out there that they would find to be very credible and very damaging to their testimonies.

...and (IMHO), they are more afraid to pull their heads out of the sand then they are to just "play along" and go with the crowd....

Sad, but that is how I see it. I was once in that group.

[jfro18]

This is the reason our TBM spouses and family don't want to discuss it. Most of these people actually know there is information out there that they would find to be very credible and very damaging to their testimonies.

...and (IMHO), they are more afraid to pull their heads out of the sand then they are to just "play along" and go with the crowd....

Sad, but that is how I see it. I was once in that group.

I agree with this 1000%... and being raised and told 'where else will you go' only raises the pain of trying to discover the truth for yourself.

[Mormorrisey]

This has been a fascinating thread - it's almost like a Rorschach test, I think it says more about us than we realize.

I'm even going to drill down on what "the church is a lie" means. Listen, for years I had trouble with people saying "the church is true" when I was all in, because what the heck does that even mean? That the building is true? The people are true? The institution is true? It never made any sense to me, thus I never said it. EVER. I was never, ever sure the 100% true. So now that I see things differently, what the heck does it even mean that the church is a lie? I'm sure, like every institution, it lies and tells the truth depending on the circumstances. I'm just more and more cognizant when it does so.

So basically, I just judge what the church has done, does, and will do. That's all. Do I know for 100% sure the church isn't what it claims? Well, actually, no. I'm pretty confident after weighing the evidence of what the church and its leaders has done, is doing and will do, that it's not consistent with what I would consider the church of Jesus to be doing. And if I'm wrong, and I discover that it's the "true" church when I die? Well, I have no worries telling God to his face that he sure had a strange way of choosing who his leaders were when they screwed up so royally during the ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH. If that was a faith test, it's a pretty piss poor one, I failed, and is that really my fault? No, I'm just going to live my life the way Jesus in the Bible suggested, and if I get punished for that, what kind of God do I worship anyway? Not the one I want to spend eternity with, that's for sure.

I guess all I'm saying is that I'm 100% certain of the path I'm on, regardless of the consequences, and really that's all I can control.

[IT_Veteran]

I guess all I'm saying is that I'm 100% certain of the path I'm on, regardless of the consequences, and really that's all I can control.

Yes, this (almost). I don't profess to know with a certainty just about anything. I wouldn't even say I'm 100% certain of the path I'm on. I'm more certain about the path I'm on now than I was about the church though. I'm certain that I'm on the path I need to be on right now. I don't foresee membership in the church as ever part of being that path again, but I'm open to a lot of other possibilities.

[Hagoth]

I guess all I'm saying is that I'm 100% certain of the path I'm on, regardless of the consequences, and really that's all I can control.

Yes, this (almost). I don't profess to know with a certainty just about anything. I wouldn't even say I'm 100% certain of the path I'm on. I'm more certain about the path I'm on now than I was about the church though. I'm certain that I'm on the path I need to be on right now. I don't foresee membership in the church as ever part of being that path again, but I'm open to a lot of other possibilities.

Like everyone else on this planet, we're walking a path facing backwards and blindly guessing about what we're moving toward. We only have the stuff behind us to make our decisions about how to proceed. There's a lot of stuff back there, good and bad. Some people are more realistic about seeing a wide spectrum of the stuff strewn across our past and others focus more on either the positive or the negative, at least in regards to the church. Either option can lead you into trouble that you didn't (couldn't) see coming. I guess the trick is to read the clues as realistically, and with as little bias, as possible. That's a tough thing to do when you're busy stumbling along the path and terrified that you might be walking toward a cliff or bear traps, especially if there are people around you yelling "bear trap! bear trap!" even though they can't see any more than you can. We make a judgement of error when we become convinced that there are other people who are facing the right direction who can do the steering for us. As far as the church goes, there is no 100% about anything, but there sure as hell is a lot of junk strewn in its path that can help you determine if you're heading into quicksand, as long as you're willing to see it. Sometimes slight course adjustments made early will eliminate the need for drastic evasion strategies later.

[jfro18]

This thread has been really great and thank you to everyone who has been a part of it.

I think we all have our own journey to this point and what I find fascinating is that everyone has different reasons. Some leave because the history doesn't line up, some leave because the 'scriptures' have so many flaws/issues, some leave because to this day they have not corrected some of the practices that have plagued them or still find groups to discriminate against (LGBT).

For me I think when I started really researching 6 weeks or so ago I went in assuming it wasn't true because I could not believe there is a God who would tell his prophet to have sex with other women and marry other people's wives. From that point though I spent a lot of time on FAIR to see what they have to say, and I think that was a good exercise because it has given me the perspective of the apologists. It has also been a frustrating one because it shows how effective they can be at gaslighting, and why my wife is willing to take FAIR at face value while ignoring obvious discrepancies within LDS sourced documents.

Anyway - I am still working on the priesthood file and I'll try to format nicely and finish in the next few days. Hopefully I can do more of that on different topics... it's somewhat stress-relieving to try and organize my thoughts. I know it's been done before and the CES Letter/Letter For My Wife both have done it, but I think on the various topics they actually only scratch the surface. And on the priesthood, the more you dig the more ridiculous it is (even when accounting for FAIR's response to it all).

I've been listening to the Mormon Stories podcasts on the LDS essays this week too and those are amazing - especially the DNA and two polygamy ones. How anyone can take the Book of Mormon seriously given the DNA issues is beyond me, and the essay is beyond insulting when confronted with very basic facts.

[Arcturus]

So instead of working on my day job, I'm trying to do a write-up of the priesthood restoration.

I’m with others here. The priesthood restoration was a big one for me. Would love to see this visualization when you’re done.

[Reuben]

So instead of working on my day job, I'm trying to do a write-up of the priesthood restoration.

I’m with others here. The priesthood restoration was a big one for me. Would love to see this visualization when you’re done.

Me too. Just don't lose your job over it, okay?

[jfro18]

So instead of working on my day job, I'm trying to do a write-up of the priesthood restoration.

I’m with others here. The priesthood restoration was a big one for me. Would love to see this visualization when you’re done.

Me too. Just don't lose your job over it, okay?

I work from home so if I spend some time in the morning working on it, I can make it up later... plus it's a slow time of the year so that's helpful for trying to mow through all this stuff.

[RubinHighlander]

The intent of my post wasn't to suggest the church is harmless. I don't believe that for a second. The intent of my post was to point out that "truth claims" and "the church is true" dichotomy no longer matters to me. Mormonism can't be proven true. It can easily be proven it's not what it claims to be!

Lately I've become focused on reclaiming the headspace Mormonism has occupied in my head over the last 10 years since my awakening. Part of that process means to let go of certain things we NOM/Exmos cling to. We love to shout The church is not true! I just don't care anymore to think through why it isn't. I believe it isn't and people can believe whatever they want. "I don't care" is my new belief system.

I highly recommend reading/listening to the book:

Thanks for clarifying Red. Although I dabble on NOM 2-3 times per week and listen to RFM on occasion, that's about it. I'm in a similar place as you in terms of no further need for any more evidence that it's all BS. It really only affects me when it affects my family and friends still in it and being in the heart of MorCor, that's a lot of affection! A good friend and coworker of mine is in the heat of his faith transition right now, so it brings it all back to the surface on a weekly basis.

I'll check out the book.

Cheers!

[no1saint]

Personally, it's not a matter of being a lie. But I don't believe in the "One true Church" or the "Only way" mantra the Church clings to desperately.

For me I think all religions, faith systems or belief structures are:

1. Appropriate for the adherents at that point of time in history and in their own lives.
2. All are personifications with the overarching concept of Godliness...some may call the universe.
3. All are right and wrong simultaneously. All belief structures have been inspired and touched by the divine, while at the same time have been corrupted by our earthly existence and human experience.

For me, I don't need the Church in my life to feel spiritually fulfilled. However, I don't think it's a lie, I think in both deep and shallow doctrine there are some beautiful...what I call eternal truths. However, I don't feel comfortable with Mormon Cultural norms that are unashamedly attached to the mid western white male paradigm. It conflicts too much with my antipodean social conscience that has been formed from decades of liberal influences through New Zealand political developments and independent foreign policy and my Maori identity.

I wish all people of faith love, light and blessings. Where I find irritation is when people project their beliefs onto the public domain to influence law and policy that restricts other peoples rights to enjoy their lives...especially when it comes to LGBTQI rights.