Obligatory Post on Tithing ;-)

[hiding in plain sight]

I recently attended tithing settlement and declared to my bishop that I was a full tithe payer.

I also told him that I had paid nothing during the year, but I would be making a payment by the end of the year. All true. I am on the old system where I pay directly to the church and my bishop doesn't see my donations. I am very aware that he could ask to see and they would readily give him the information. But as of yet, he hasn't asked. At least to my knowledge.

So the question is. Did I lie to my bishop?

Here is how I view tithing. There are potentially 4 ways I think you could view tithing and be honest in how you declare whether or not you are an "honest and full" tithe payer.

Here is a great article talking about the historical background for tithing. You all probably read it when it came out in 2012, but I like it.

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/ ... thing.html

1) 10% of gross income. This is what I paid on for 46 years. Yeah. I never really believed. //sarcasm//

2) 10% of net income.

3) 10% of interest (which I feel the D&C revelation means increase in net worth)

4) 10% of whatever I want to declare.

Now number four you may say I am way out of bounds. But there is only one official church presidency statement on tithing. It was written in 1970. And it clearly states: "We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly."

I personally pay according to what I think the scriptures original meant and that is 10% on your increase in net worth.

I am totally comfortable and fine with this definition. But I also think, that according to the official first presidency letter, you can ultimately say whatever you want and still be an "honest and full" tithe payer.


I guess the question you may want to ask is WHY am I paying any tithing at all?

Well I am still married to a TBM and attend church. Until the day comes when we both leave, I will probably be doing this.

But it is substantially less than I was paying for my entire adult life as a "10% of gross" lemming.


So my question is. Did I lie to the bishop about being a "full" tithe payer?

[Corsair]

So my question is. Did I lie to the bishop about being a "full" tithe payer?

From a strict standpoint you probably told an untruth because you did not define exactly what "full" tithe means. This is largely my tactic and I have no guilt about it. My wife does, but she does not want to drive that wedge so she ignores it.

It's also duplicitous to claim that we are not lying any more than the church lies about their big issues. Have the apostles or prophets met with Jesus Christ face to face? I have an opinion about that, but it's more certain than the answer you will get by asking a living apostle or prophet. So much of the time they imply such a theophany. Just because we feel they are "misleading" does not justify my "misleading" compliance as a full tithe payer.

What I see in you, and hopefully me, is a person that cannot abide by every single rule of a community, but is willing to bend a few of their own for the sake of maintaining the community. This places quite a burden on our own personal integrity. But it's the LDS church that proscribed the penalties for doctrinal non-compliance, not me.

[hiding in plain sight]

From a strict standpoint you probably told an untruth because you did not define exactly what "full" tithe means. This is largely my tactic and I have no guilt about it. My wife does, but she does not want to drive that wedge so she ignores it.

I truly feel that I am right in saying that I am a "full" tithe payer.

However, I agree with you 100%, from a strict standpoint.

Clearly I know the bishop would define full tithe payer as 10% of gross or maybe 10% of net income. And I am fairly confident that he would not agree with me about 10% of net worth increase and definitely not that it is all up to me.

So by not defining it for him, I could potentially be misleading him as to what I am saying.

If he wants to know, I will tell him exactly what I am doing. I will never directly state something that is untrue.

I also still firmly believe that my point is correct.

However, you did answer my question. And I do agree with you.

[Red Ryder]

I think your justified in whatever you decide.

If the church membership (by design) is doctrinally obligated and allowed to benefit from receiving personal revelation based on individually received promptings, then who can argue with whom?

That's the dilemma with individualized spirit induced promptings. If I go to the temple and feel promoted to take another job, then who can argue with me that I'm wrong?

Now substitute job with wife and I've suddenly crossed the morality line, right?

With tithing, you haven't crossed the morality line and the church has no way to enforce anything when they tell you it's between you and The Lord.

[Deepthinker]

I do the same thing, still paying confidentially through my bank’s bill pay system. Until the online LDS.org system provides a confidential option, I will continue to do so.

I also pay on “surplus” or “interest”. DW has consistently told me that I’m not paying a full tithe. I’ve gone through the quotes with her and she still sees it the way she was taught.

I would say you’re not lying. I plan on declaring an honest full tithe to our bishop next week.

The church could come out and be very clear about what people should pay. They haven't and instead they are intentionally vague. That vagueness allows for a wide range of interpretations.

I completely believe that the way I’ve interpreted the teaching on tithing is legitimate and I’m allowed to pay on “surplus” or “interest” and say I am a full tithe payer.

[2bizE]

A few months ago, May; June, there was an article on KSL or the LDS newsroom. It was on the KSL radio as well where a BYU professor explained how early members paid tithing according to DC section 119. He explained that they paid on their interest. 6% was a common interest rate then. If their worth of their farm and other things was $1000, they would calculate the interest on 6%, which would be $60, then pay 10% of $60 which would be $6. That's how it was figured out. The professor as added the disclaimer that even though they paid tithing that way years ago doesn't mean the church can't change how tithing is paid. Interesting...

[Korihor]

I was going to tithing settlement but got distracted and ended up at a bar instead. I confessed to the bartender that I didn't yet have anything to drink that night. He told me my sins were forgiven and served a drink.
I can only remember about 10% of what happened that night, so I declared myself fully tithed.

[wtfluff]

HIPS, I'm pretty sure you are much more forthright and honest than "The Church" has been in its ~200 year history.

[SunbeltRed]

I was going to tithing settlement but got distracted and ended up at a bar instead. I confessed to the bartender that I didn't yet have anything to drink that night. He told me my sins were forgiven and served a drink.
I can only remember about 10% of what happened that night, so I declared myself fully tithed.

This is funny!

[SunbeltRed]

I think I'm going to declare our family to be full tithe payers.

I run a straight calculation: what do I think our family contribution is to keep the lights on and run the a/c and heat, and wear and tear.

I deemed $500 to be an appropriate amount. Being that I have no additional information on actual costs to make a better informed decision and that our contribution is between us and God, I feel good about it.

If it's more than that then I will claim offsets from previous years overpayments.

[MalcolmVillager]

I switched to bill pay using confidential instructions from the church email (PM if you want instructions). BP was confused when I declared full since no payments he could see starting in February. He would even be more confused if he saw they dropped about 75%. I verpaid for decades and convinced DW to switch to Net with a lifetime catchup goal. We will be at 10% net when I retire but I have to dramatically underpay to catch up.

[2bizE]

I switched to bill pay using confidential instructions from the church email (PM if you want instructions). BP was confused when I declared full since no payments he could see starting in February. He would even be more confused if he saw they dropped about 75%. I verpaid for decades and convinced DW to switch to Net with a lifetime catchup goal. We will be at 10% net when I retire but I have to dramatically underpay to catch up.

I'm considering doing this. I switched to online pay, but it still shows on my tithing settlement paperwork. What's would say to the Bishop is that he is just going to have to trust me on being a full tithe payer just like we have to trust the church with its lack of financial transparency.

[MalcolmVillager]

[quote="

I'm considering doing this. I switched to online pay, but it still shows on my tithing settlement paperwork. What's would say to the Bishop is that he is just going to have to trust me on being a full tithe payer just like we have to trust the church with its lack of financial transparency.[/quote]

Yeah, transparency goes both ways. If anyone ever pushes on a local level that will be my response. If they really push I will show them my math and the quote about how we have the ability to make our own determination of the proper way to tithe. I saw it on another board today.

[Giant Sloth]

The tithing thread on the old forum was a invaluable resource for people trying to scale back their tithing payment. It included instructions on how to set up confidential tithing payment -- an important step for many people (including me) trying to take back their right to choose how much to donate.

When I switched to confidential in 2013, this is how I did it:

1 - Sent an email to donations@lds.org which read:
"Hello,
I would like to set up confidential bill pay for my tithing donations. I have several professional affiliates in my ward, and need to keep my donations confidential. Thanks."

2 - They sent me a reply requesting my member info and routing number, and with additional instructions for setting up the bill pay account through my bank.

Paying confidentially means you are not accountable to leadership regarding the amount you choose to pay, leaving you free to decide for yourself what constitutes a full tithe. It also complies with Matthew Ch. 6's admonition to do your alms in secret, and not let the left hand know what the right hand doeth.

Bill pay is not automatically confidential. You must specially request that it be so. Also, even if it is confidential, the bishop is able to view your donation amounts if he chooses. However, it requires him to take some special steps beforehand, which I think most bishops are unlikely to do during the hectic weeks of tithing settlement.

Does anyone have some info that is more current? Does the statement still report the number and dates of donations (omitting the $ amounts), or does it just look as though there are no payments?

I don't pay or attend any more, but I worry for the sake of others that they will get rid of this option someday soon.

[Newme]

I don't pay a cent to the church, but I generally consider myself ok in God's eyes, as far as I spend my money, though I could always do better - but that's between God and me, not the church and me.
Deut. 14:28-29 states that 1/3 of TITHES are to be given to those in need.
This is a commandment that falls under the greatest commandments - to love God and others as self - even above obeying laws & prophets.
Considering the dishonest way the church handles money - and how Oaks admitted to not sharing any tithes to the poor, I feel justified in sharing tithes directly with those in need. To me, this is more God's will than funding a financially corrupt church.

As far as contributing, I still serve and have freely served and we overpaid - for many years.

[No Tof]

Settled the whole tithing thing long ago and have enjoyed the new car purchased for DW.
Paid a lifetime already so I'm pretty sure I've been fully tithed if you consider loses into the equation. It's between me and goddess and she hasn't mentioned anything yet.

I'd suggest putting it into an account and at the end of the year deciding how much to give to the corporation and how to invest the rest.

[azflyer]

So the question is. Did I lie to my bishop?

No, you did not lie to your bishop. That is exactly how tithing settlement is supposed to work. Bishops constantly remind people that they don't have to be 'paid up' for the year when they come to tithing settlement. Our ward this year was done with tithing settlement by mid November. I know several people that pay their entire tithing allotment on 12/31 every year by taking a tithing check to the bishop before midnight.

In addition, if you read between the lines a little bit here, you'll never have (or hopefully never have) a bishop or priesthood lead of any kind quiz you about how you came up with your decision on what 10% means. Every person has the right to answer that question on their own, how they see fit. If you go ask your bishop what you should do, you'll probably get the GROSS answer, but that's just because any church lead is always going to default to the most conservative answer they can think of.

[azflyer]

For my tithing settlement this year, I wrote my bishop an email that basically said, 'We're full tithe payers, and were not coming in". I never heard anything back from him or the exec sec, and I still have a temple recommend.

[The Beast]

HIPS, I'm OK with your number 4 and I've been following that approach to the "T" for several years now.

[RGiles]

Who cares what Mormon culture thinks? If you're good with your decision (as I think you are), then rest easy at night, feel no guilt, and participate in temple ordinances to your heart's content. Merry Christmas and have a Happy New Year!