Need help with specific teachings...

[IT_Veteran]

DW and I had a great discussion last night. I will no longer refer to her as TBM, but I suggested to her she should come and join us here on NOM. She's not sure how to describe herself or her beliefs anymore. Despite acknowledging she no longer believes in many of the truth claims, she recognizes that Mormonism is still her tribe. She believes that there are good things to be found in the BoM as well. We have three children, one of which is out (17), one seems a little apathetic of lately (13), and one is too young to have any idea what's going on (3). I expressed my concern that they are still exposed to the toxic elements of the church and the indoctrination of it, and I'm concerned they're going to be taught things that we object to now (LGBTQ+ issues top among them).

She suggested we develop a list of things that we feel the need to address with them. Not in a CES letter or trying to disprove the church for them kind of way, but a list of things we think are harmful and want to share what we believe about certain things.

Here's the list I have so far:

• LGBTQ issues and intolerance

• Racism in the church and in the BoM

• Sexual sin next to murder (BoM and modern teachings)

• Native Americans descended from Lamanites

• All truth is found in the church

• Earth is 6000 years old

• Discrimination of women

• Patriarchy

These are a few teachings that I would consider harmful to either the individual being taught, or that they create a harmful or discriminatory worldview. Is there a comprehensive list of these types of issues? If not, please share the issues that you believe cause harm to members of the church or cause members to harm others because of the teachings. If you have links or references to sources I appreciate it, but please don't feel like I'm not willing to do some work and some research of my own once I have a list of the issues.

[Jeffret]

Along with your first one add, Discrimination against women. (Or something like that.)

Or discrimination and treatment against minority / disempowered groups in general.

Or just general patriarchy.

[IT_Veteran]

Along with your first one add, Discrimination against women. (Or something like that.)

Or discrimination and treatment against minority / disempowered groups in general.

Or just general patriarchy.

Ahh yes, patriarchy is definitely something DW and I have been talking about lately. It bothers her, for example, that a deacon will be asked to choose someone to say the prayer in her parents (or my parents) home before an adult woman would deign to choose someone for so important a task. Something I had never even considered until a few weeks ago.

I'll update the original post to reflect that.

[Jeffret]

• Sexual sin next to murder (BoM and modern teachings)

Can I just address this one a little bit? This whole idea is based on a bad misreading of Alma 36. Or at best a thoroughly lazy reading. But, mostly a discriminatory reading, intended to keep people, particularly women, down.

The text never actually says that sexual sin is next to murder. What it does say is, "Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost?" (Alma 39:5) The primary problem is that it doesn't actually clarify what "these things" are. When it says "these things are an abomination" the antecedent is unclear. The chapter heading states, "Sexual sin is an abomination", but the text doesn't actually say that. One question that arises is whether the chapter headings are canon, whether they are scripture themselves, whether they are authoritative. This one injects something into the text that wasn't there originally. And even then, it still doesn't say that sexual sin is next to murder.

If you carefully read the whole chapter, or better yet the surrounding chapters, sexual sin in fact is barely mentioned. What Alma does discuss in great detail is the sin of abandoning the ministry, leading others away from Christ, and leading others into wickedness. This becomes most pronounced when Alma compares it to his own experience as a youth in leading people astray.

Here is further discussion on the topic: Sin Next to Murder. And a very detailed Sunstone article: THE SIN “NEXT TO MURDER”:
AN ALTERNATIVE INTERPRETATION.

As a counter, here is the response article from LDS Answers: Is sexual sin next to murder? Book of Mormon Central fact check

The difficulties are layers deep: A non-historical book accepted as historical fact, misreading of the antecedent, proof-texting, inaccurate chapter heading, and then many, many statements from church authorities misstating the text.

[IT_Veteran]

That makes sense and I appreciate the perspective. I think though, that the BoM as its read now, or as the leadership of the church has taught it since essentially the inception of the church, it supports the sin next to murder narrative. While I can certainly see an alternative reading to it based on the resource you provided, I have to base what I'm refuting on the current and past teachings of the church which, in this case, agree with each other.

I just went and looked at the FtSoY page on lds.org https://www.lds.org/youth/for-the-stren ... y?lang=eng. This is still being taught to our youth. The Miracle of Forgiveness teaches it (do they still give that book to members that need to repent of sexual sin?).

When I write that it's BoM teaching, I think it's important to address it as its taught in the church. I appreciate the resource though because it may be an avenue to discuss why the BoM could still be used to learn good life lessons but remove the shame from sexuality. It gives my DW and kids some room to maneuver around the harmful teaching that sex is next to murder. The problem lies in that if I offer that explanation, any one of my kids could simply go to LDS.org and find out what the prophetic interpretation of the scripture is.

[Red Ryder]

How about bowling etiquette?

It's less confusing to the kids than everything you're listing. Kids have an amazing ability to sort out the bull pucky as you teach them critical thinking skills along with general christian principles like the golden rule. Simple rules such as to be honest, treat others with respect
etc. Keep it simple. You only have their attention span for maybe 5 minutes at best. Your teenagers will respond accordingly.

Remember, your brain is swimming in the pool of new found knowledge and the excitement spills over to the wife who is dipping her toes in. The kids don't care about any of this. They're just happy they don't have to go to church anymore.

I'd suggest you guys continue to go through the thought process but then stand back and whittle your list down to what's truly relevant. Identify your core beliefs first. Your wife isn't really suggesting this for the benefit of the kids. She's suggesting this so she can understand where your core beliefs are in order to comfort her brain that you're not going to go off and do hookers and blow. This is an important step in your marriage at this critical point in your faith transition. She's accepting but needs validation.

Identify your core beliefs. Reassure her you're committed to your wife, your family, and everyone's future. Then toss the rest (like the age of the earth... who cares?)

[IT_Veteran]

How about bowling etiquette?

It's less confusing to the kids than everything you're listing. Kids have an amazing ability to sort out the bull pucky as you teach them critical thinking skills along with general christian principles like the golden rule. Simple rules such as to be honest, treat others with respect
etc. Keep it simple. You only have their attention span for maybe 5 minutes at best. Your teenagers will respond accordingly.

Remember, your brain is swimming in the pool of new found knowledge and the excitement spills over to the wife who is dipping her toes in. The kids don't care about any of this. They're just happy they don't have to go to church anymore.

I'd suggest you guys continue to go through the thought process but then stand back and whittle your list down to what's truly relevant. Identify your core beliefs first. Your wife isn't really suggesting this for the benefit of the kids. She's suggesting this so she can understand where your core beliefs are in order to comfort her brain that you're not going to go off and do hookers and blow. This is an important step in your marriage at this critical point in your faith transition. She's accepting but needs validation.

Identify your core beliefs. Reassure her you're committed to your wife, your family, and everyone's future. Then toss the rest (like the age of the earth... who cares?)

I appreciate the feedback but may need more explanation on the bowling etiquette piece... As a person that only goes once every few years the only etiquette I'm aware of is to wait for the person next to me to finish.

I should also clarify that my DW is pretty comfortable with my values and my new (un)beliefs. This list isn't for her to understand me better, but to make sure our kids aren't taught harmful things. She is struggling with her own understanding of the truth claims and no longer believes most of it but is not ready to stop attending completely or withdraw her name from the records. When I raised my fear of them being indoctrinated with harmful teachings, she came up with the idea of a list of things that she is concerned the kids will be indoctrinated with if they continue to attend, as discussion points to have with them. She suggested that she was going to create a list, I mentioned I would help build one.

The kids are homeschooled so they've had an element of gospel study in their schooling and the time already exists to have discussions about this stuff. The fear that I have, and that I keep going back to is discussions around LGBTQ. My daughter is 13yo and has been taught her entire life that homosexuality is a sin and that it's wrong. We can love people, but not the sin, etc. I recognize now how harmful this is. I worry about how she would feel if she's questioning her sexuality and feels like she has no support. I worry about my 3yo, who is way too young to understand or concern herself with sexuality, but may still grow up in a church that demonizes it. I worry about the messages about sexuality in general, avoiding sexual thoughts, etc, that even outside the parameters of LGBT issues are harmful.

These issues really resonate with me in a way they didn't a month ago. DW and I took a trip without the kids for a week and really got to discuss hard issues. We talked pretty openly about everything, and I shared with her my new stance on LGBTQ issues (to not concern myself or judge someone for the people they love). At that point she confided in me that she is bisexual. We've been married 18 years (that week was actually our anniversary). She has been attracted to men and women since she developed any kind of sexual attraction. She's never told anyone. Not a bishop, not her family, not even me, because she knew that to acknowledge it would bring judgment and shame. She still has told only our kids and her sister as far as I know. She has not told her parents or mine (or any other family members). I share it here because she's given me permission to do so. She's no longer hiding it, but she isn't really openly talking about it with family either, because it's hard. I can see how the emotional trauma of the messages she's received for over three decades have affected her mental health.

That's why the LGBTQ thing is so important to me. Some of the other issues are just as important, IMO. I'm just trying to get a list of the ones that are harmful. Not to barrage the kids all at once, but to be ready to have discussions as topics come up or if we feel like something needs to be addressed. Or to change the way they do gospel lessons during school-time.

[Reuben]

Watch Queer Eye on Netflix as part of teaching. It's kind of amazing.

[IT_Veteran]

Watch Queer Eye on Netflix as part of teaching. It's kind of amazing.

I’ll check it out, thanks for the recommendation. DW and I have been watching the original series of Will and Grace. My 13yo sometimes will come in, lay on the bed and watch with us.

Sure, some of it is irreverent. But there are a lot of parts that are very touching and poignant. It sometimes gives me perspective into things that I didn’t understand prior.

[ap1054]

I would suggest the tension of whether there is prophecy, seership, and revelation in the modern LDS church. The notion that the brethren have a pipeline to God provides the hierarchy with a powerful grasp on the minds of the membership. They say something --> it's the will of God --> no questions asked --> fall in line.

There is a high probability that the hierarchy are simply human beings, who are at least (I hope) doing what they feel is best for the church. With this idea, they have, they do, and they will make mistakes - even big ones (race & the priesthood). So think for yourself and pray that they will do what is best for the church, if you're one who chooses to stick with Mormonism. And be a gracious voice of peaceful opposition when they screw up.

[IT_Veteran]

I would suggest the tension of whether there is prophecy, seership, and revelation in the modern LDS church. The notion that the brethren have a pipeline to God provides the hierarchy with a powerful grasp on the minds of the membership. They say something --> it's the will of God --> no questions asked --> fall in line.

There is a high probability that the hierarchy are simply human beings, who are at least (I hope) doing what they feel is best for the church. With this idea, they have, they do, and they will make mistakes - even big ones (race & the priesthood). So think for yourself and pray that they will do what is best for the church, if you're one who chooses to stick with Mormonism. And be a gracious voice of peaceful opposition when they screw up.

Love it! Thank you!

[Linked]

I would address some of the manipulative tactics used by the church. Heartsell, the MLMiness of the church, and generally being able to see when people want you to do something so you can give yourself time to decide if you really want to do it.

[IT_Veteran]

I would address some of the manipulative tactics used by the church. Heartsell, the MLMiness of the church, and generally being able to see when people want you to do something so you can give yourself time to decide if you really want to do it.

Excellent points, thank you. That’s not something I would have considered before, but you’re right.

[Reuben]

I would address some of the manipulative tactics used by the church. Heartsell, the MLMiness of the church, and generally being able to see when people want you to do something so you can give yourself time to decide if you really want to do it.

Excellent points, thank you. That’s not something I would have considered before, but you’re right.

If you're going there, watch The Push on Netflix. They use many forms of social control, only some of which the church uses. The goal is different (murder vs. religious conformity) and the tactics are mostly different, but the strategy is the same: get the person to buy into the manipulator's worldview and to give up all moral authority to the manipulator. As a bonus, the show is really informative and wildly entertaining, and is only an hour long.

I would add teaching the difference between belief and faith, and why certainty is bad. I've written about that before here:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2335&p=28671#p28671

This is what I'll teach next time we have FHE.

I'll also be doing something on tribalism, fitting in, and belonging. The way the church styles itself as a family but requires you to fit in if you want to belong is abusive in and of itself. I'll probably post about it after I do it.

[Reuben]

Clips of people in other faiths having spiritual witnesses:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MYShYPHynBY

There's another one like this floating around, which this is an edit of. This edit removes a bait-and-switch and a sucker punch, leaving just clips of testimonies.

I still haven't shown this to my kids. It would probably break my oldest daughter or cause entrenchment that would make the Western Front look like a small collection of latrines. It's a hot potato.

Slightly more fun is this video on the power of suggestion in a religious context:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uGJ7w2qvI8M

The mind is a truly wonderful and untrustworthy thing.

[IT_Veteran]

Thank you all for these, keep them coming as you think of them!

[wtfluff]

Teach them how the church uses fear, guilt and shame to manipulate it's adherents.

Teach them about epistemology like Reuben mentioned: Feelings and emotions are an incredibly awful way to find truth. Much of what the church does is designed to manipulate feelings an emotions. (See the above sentence about fear, guilt and shame.)

Teach them that the church has basically invented an illness (all humans are broken) and then the church sells them the cure to this fake illness. (This is pretty much the story of all religion in my useless opinion.)

[Jeffret]

How about bowling etiquette?

It's less confusing to the kids than everything you're listing. Kids have an amazing ability to sort out the bull pucky as you teach them critical thinking skills along with general christian principles like the golden rule. Simple rules such as to be honest, treat others with respect
etc. Keep it simple. You only have their attention span for maybe 5 minutes at best. Your teenagers will respond accordingly.

Remember, your brain is swimming in the pool of new found knowledge and the excitement spills over to the wife who is dipping her toes in. The kids don't care about any of this. They're just happy they don't have to go to church anymore.

I'd suggest you guys continue to go through the thought process but then stand back and whittle your list down to what's truly relevant. Identify your core beliefs first. Your wife isn't really suggesting this for the benefit of the kids. She's suggesting this so she can understand where your core beliefs are in order to comfort her brain that you're not going to go off and do hookers and blow. This is an important step in your marriage at this critical point in your faith transition. She's accepting but needs validation.

Identify your core beliefs. Reassure her you're committed to your wife, your family, and everyone's future. Then toss the rest (like the age of the earth... who cares?)

I think Red is spot on, here.

It's like a pyramid. The value of this list you're assembling is primarily to yourself. You're putting the most into it and you'll get more out of it than anyone else. This is the base of the pyramid. It's the foundation, but it also covers by far the most area. Next, it may have some value to your wife, primarily in your discussions with her. That's the next segment of the pyramid. But, it's still significantly about yourself. Then the very tip of the pyramid is how this actually relates to your children. They're only interested in little tidbits. Even as teens with more maturity and capability, a significant part of their interest is in knowing little bits of where you stand. They're not going to adopt your whole interest and passion. They'll develop their own areas of concern. It's better to give them some fundamentals than try and impress upon them everything that is suggested here.

My four kids are almost all adults at this point. I left the church over a decade ago. I shared some ideas with them originally but didn't try to push everything onto them. When opportunities arose, we might discuss particular topics. From time to time over the years I've had discussions with various ones of them on related topics when they're interested. As they've become mature adults, we learn from each other discussions as everyone shares ideas. I don't have a specific list of things to discuss or specific materials. Instead, when something is topical or when they are interested then we have a discussion.

In the early days our kids learned a lot from involved discussions between my wife and I, particularly while traveling and the kids didn't have anything better to do. They weren't actually engaged in those discussions when they were younger. But they listened. At least some of them did. They learned some things about having discussions, about considering other points of view, and now we incorporate some of those practices, sometimes better and sometimes worse in our discussion.

[dogbite]

6000 years age of earth.

The church isn't necessarily young earth. It is however young life, in specific human life. Doctrinally the spirt of life in animals and plants is only 6000 years old. The church doesn't explore what this means to the fossil record, dendrochronology and other related science facts.

The ramifications of young life is still anti-science and problematical for doctrine. Now it's mostly inferences from other statements and scriptures. They want deniability. If you have seminary stuff from the 70s and 80s, then it can be pretty clearly shown. Doctrine is what you teach. Seminary material is therefore doctrinal. You won't find refutation of this earlier teaching, but it hasn't been taught that way for some decades now giving contemporary members more wiggle room. You can find claims that the Church doesn't teach a Young Earth, and this is contemporaneously true.

Still, there are some doctrinal sources.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bible-chron?lang=eng

This strictly sources Adam, not necessarily the age of the earth. Archaeology is a strong challenge to this claim, Gobekli Tepe especially so
There is a lot of religious handwaving around related issues, but more on that later.

See also the various imagery from the past for seminary and so on in chronology.

https://www.google.com/search?q=lds+bib ... 95&bih=971

Scripturally, the two big guns are DC 77, which spells out a literal 7000 year timeline of man/earth of 1000 years per dispensation. Apologists will say this is figurative, but that' requires some serious re-interpretation of the contents of that section. Or they'll argue that the earth could be older, this is only when human time keeping started. It really doesn't support the apologist position. The lesson manual for this section is pretty vague too. They are desparate for wiggle room.

The other is 2 Nephi 22:2 (and a bit surrounding that. This plainly declares no death before the fall. This shoots holes in lots of apologist theories. They'll argue that it only means spiritual death. Or that that applies to the Garden of Eden and not the earth. Or only to when souls entered into human evolution. There is plenty of doctrine that without the spirit, it isn't alive. This is the whole argument about abortion, "we don't know when the spirit enters the baby so we err on the side of caution". See also 77 where it declares that all life has spirits. The hair splitting necessary to argue against this scripture usually defeats any other doctrinal claim you want to apply it too to point out how weak the arguments are.

The way 2Ne22 talks about the creation and the fall pretty plainly indicates it means everything everywhere. Apologists will argue this reflects only what the Nephites believed, not necessarily what is factual doctrine. However, that's a two edged sword as it can be applied to any statement in the BoM, plus it's the most correct book on earth etc.

Similarly Moses 6:48 and more weakly 1Cor15:22

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1980/09/the- ... e?lang=eng is a refutation of modern science essentially. It argues that our science is based on only local phenomena and things could be different elsewhere. Could is the operational word here. This is about weakly justifying faith through feelings as the supreme epistemology. Of course, feelings let any non-evidence based claim be equally as true and valid.

You may hear a Talmadge quote about the altar at Adam Ondi Aman, that there is fossiliferous rock in that altar so it means that life predated Adam. To me that indicates Talmadge recognized the issues, but he never constructed and taught a specific timeline of the earth and man that I know of. Rather, this topic has been left alone.

Other analyses:
http://www.lds-mormon.com/6000.shtml
http://www.mormonthink.com/scienceweb.htm#age

satire with an interesting quote that itself is authentic
http://stakepresident.blogspot.com/2011 ... earth.html

You can readily find apologetic material on Fair and from Jeff Lindsay and others.

[Jeffret]

The kids are homeschooled so they've had an element of gospel study in their schooling and the time already exists to have discussions about this stuff.

Our kids have been homeschooled, also. In about a month and half we will be done with that. My recommendation is to have critical thinking activities as a core part of their schooling. I don't think there is much of anything that is more valuable. We've used various materials and practices to teach that to our youngest, now 17, and he's very aware of how to critically examine issues. One of his older sisters didn't focus as much on that in her homeschooling but as part of her art degree in college she focused on critical art theory, philosophy, and post-modernism. The discussions we have range wide. She'll pick apart my mistakes, particularly in reference to oppression of women.

The fear that I have, and that I keep going back to is discussions around LGBTQ. My daughter is 13yo and has been taught her entire life that homosexuality is a sin and that it's wrong. We can love people, but not the sin, etc. I recognize now how harmful this is. I worry about how she would feel if she's questioning her sexuality and feels like she has no support. I worry about my 3yo, who is way too young to understand or concern herself with sexuality, but may still grow up in a church that demonizes it. I worry about the messages about sexuality in general, avoiding sexual thoughts, etc, that even outside the parameters of LGBT issues are harmful.

It's less important that you teach your daughter what's right here than that you figure it out for yourself and then model it. They need to understand what you think on the topics, that you accept different people, and most importantly that you love and accept your children. Even when they've had the evils of LGBTQ heavily preached to them, the younger generation isn't buying it. Indeed, I'd say that in some ways because they've received such heavy preaching the younger generation is quite accepting of LGBT people.

Messages about sexuality in general are more complex. Again basic education and modeling are the key. They have to learn that they have autonomy. Including bodily autonomy. And that extends to church leaders. Who aren't always right. And don't have magical powers of discernment.