A reintroduction

[sparky]

Some of you may remember me from the old board, though I haven't posted in a while. About a year and a half ago, I posted an introduction on the old NOM board. I’d recently had a typical shelf collapse after studying the details of polygamy, racism, revisionist history, Book of Mormon historicity, etc.—all the usual suspects. I came to that board seeking advice on how to share my faith transition with my wife, and got some good advice and perspectives.

Since then my worldview has gone through multiple revisions. Growing up, I’d always believed the church was what it claims to be: the One True Church With Jesus Christ Himself at the Head. I held a solid, literal belief in pretty much the whole shebang. After my shelf collapse, for a time I saw the church as an evil, extortionist institution only interested in perpetuating its lies and sucking time and money from its members. I wanted out.

After continuing to study science, philosophy, psychology, and other religions over the past year, I no longer see the church as evil; I just see it as human. For better or for worse, human beings are creatures of belief, ritual, and community, and I recognize that the church does those things very well for some people. I still want out, but not because it’s evil, just because it doesn’t work for me as a worldview anymore.

I mentioned my wife—at the time of my shelf collapse, we’d only been married for a couple of months (ironically the temple marriage ceremony was a huge part of my loss of belief). We’ve had a few conversations since then, but I’ve come to realize that the church works for her, and I have no desire to force my new way of seeing things onto her. She’ll reach that point if and when she needs to, and I love her far, far more than I dislike the church. Luckily her experience growing up in the church was very different from mine—much less orthodox and black and white. It didn’t consume her entire world like it did mine.

I’ve come to realize that in order to have a happy, fulfilling marriage, I have to accept my wife where she’s at, and that includes how she engages with the church. For me that means the church will likely always be part of my life, even though it bugs the hell out of me sometimes. My current approach is to think about it as little as possible and spend as little time as possible doing churchy things, and just keep under the radar. Maybe that will work for the rest of my life, or maybe I’ll have to make changes in future, but for now that’s where I’m at.

I’ll be around this board from time to time. I like the in-depth, nuanced, open-minded discussions here. A big thanks to whoever took it upon themselves to rebuild the NOM forum; there may not be a ton of us here, but it’s a huge support to those of us stuck in the middle.

[Corsair]

Sparky, yours is a common story on NOM, but no less impactful than the many variations we have read over the years. I recommend two changes in attitude that has certainly helped me. You are at least half way there with how you realize that you can't simply change your wife's religious beliefs.

First, you have to treat the LDS church with indifference. I'm guessing that you paid zero attention to anything that Don Alden Adams said in the past year. You probably don't have any idea who Don Alden Adams is. Mr. Adams is the current head of the Jehovah's Witnesses and frankly, I had to look up that information also. Nobody on this forum cares a single bit about what this guy has ever said. This is how you have to start approaching both current and former LDS leaders. Yes, they have said some dumb things and yes, they have cause grievous harm in many instances. But your goal is to live your life ignoring what apostles and prophets have said in favor of what many actually brilliant thinkers have said. I am a far bigger fan of Elon Musk than the collective mass of LDS leaders. Being indifferent to the church forces the believers in your life to have the more difficult task of demonstrating why their favorite people are worth listening to.

The second major attitude you need is a complement to the first. Treat your wife's faithfulness to the church like it was simply an expensive hobby. Do you play golf? I'm terrible at it and I have little desire to get better because it is an expensive sport starting with clubs and green fees. Golf fans don't go around preaching to the entire world about the unfaithful not flocking to their local golf course. They know that it's not a game for everyone and we can imagine what an insufferable bore that a "golf evangelist of the one true sport" would be.

But I would not worry about my wife taking up the sport if she were actually interested. It's expensive but it's a decent way to stay active and healthy. The LDS church is part of the personality of my wife and yours. We can't change that unless they are ready to make that change. Instead, make changes in yourself to be the best husband, father, and human you can be. Let this stand as the evidence for your wife that the church is not all it's cracked up to be.

[Red Ryder]

Welcome back Sparky!

Do you plan to have kids? Things will become more difficult once kids are in the equation. For some reason, new parents get boxed into believing their babies need a good religious upbringing. That's when the traditions, teachings, and ordinances get turned up.

Mixed faith marriages will work but it takes a lot of patience and hell of a lot more pretending.

Some days I wonder if it's worth it.

[MalcolmVillager]

Welcome to the middle! Misery loves company, so I am glad you are here

I can see Corsair's point of apathy towards the church.

It remindse of a joke my roommate and I used to banter with:

Me: "Do you know the difference between ignorance and apathy?"

Him: "I don't know and I don't care!"

Anyway, I think you either need ignorance or apathy to be happy (or at least not bugged) at church. You know you can't unlearn so many of the details you have aeen, but you can learn to not care! It is working for me.

You truly go through the stages of grief; denial, anger, acceptance, apathy, etc...

[sparky]

Corsair, thanks for the advice. I read a post of yours similar to it several months ago, and the idea of indifference really helped me. As a true believer, I had to care about the church because it was the most important thing in the whole universe; as a disaffected member that mindset simply flipped and I had to care about it because it was false, and I felt an equally strong desire to find out everything that made it false. I've since replaced my scripture/church history study with studying things like philosophy and psychology and world history. It's much healthier. Turns out the church is an insignificant blip in the grand scheme of things.

RR, no kids yet, and we don't plan to few at least a few more years. I don't worry about what my DW will teach our kids; like me, she's in the middle of a PhD in a hard science, she's socially liberal, and she approaches the church as more of a community and set of traditions than as the One True Source of All That is True. I do worry about what kids will pick up from other people at church, though, and I plan to minimize that influence as much as possible by teaching them critical thinking skills.

And MalcolmVillager, you're right, I've definitely been through all those stages, some more than once. And yep, unlearning things is impossible when the things I know now make so much more sense. I'm working on the apathy part.

[hiding in plain sight]

I’ll be around this board from time to time. I like the in-depth, nuanced, open-minded discussions here. A big thanks to whoever took it upon themselves to rebuild the NOM forum; there may not be a ton of us here, but it’s a huge support to those of us stuck in the middle.

Welcome back. I am definitely with you being stuck in the middle with a TBM spouse. Please do continue to participate as it makes sense for you. You have a great voice.