Would love to get some collective wisdom from the NOMs on this question. Sorry if this has been discussed before - couldn't find any close conversations with a search. And sorry upfront for a post loaded with questions. This has been heavy on my mind for months now and I've finally decided to throw it on NOM.
Some important background before pitching the question:
So my wife and I are pretty much on the same page about the church these days. Joseph Smith said some interesting things in his lifetime, and he may have been a prophet but also may have been a fraud. We don't believe the church holds any priesthood power and we don't think the brethren are prophets, seers, and revelators. The temple is no longer important to us. Don't plan on paying tithing in the future so long as the church seems to be primarily concerned with building temples and is not transparent with financials.
However, we do believe in God and the pursuit of a spiritual life founded on love, forgiveness, service, etc. The really basic stuff that you can get in pretty much any religion. We also don't think the church really harmed us individually (both born and raised in the church) although we know that can't be said by everyone, and we acknowledge a very unhealthy culture in the church with leadership idolatry, patriarchy, shaming, intolerance for those who don't fit, etc. And we like Mormon people for the most part. Both sides of our families are TBMs and aren't really aware of where we are in our faith (live a few states away from everyone).
We have 3 little girls and don't plan on having more children. I know that's important to put out there since church experience can be very different for girls and boys... We live in the midwest currently and will most likely never live in Utah (job won't take us there). My job can also take us virtually anywhere in the country and possibly even Canada.
We are going to be moving in the near future and are highly considering phasing out of our church activity at that point - we have good friends in our ward right now and we wouldn't want to freak out or anything if we stopped going. In other words, we want to quietly phase out. We would like to think that we could be semi-active (attend maybe every other week or once a month, likely only sacrament meeting) in the church mainly for the social benefit and letting our girls have some interaction with the Mormon faith. But we are going to accept the full responsibility of being open with our girls what we believe and simple spiritual matters that we believe is important for them (simple teachings of Jesus Christ, etc.).
In my line of work, completely walking away from the church could potentially have a negative impact on my career advancement and mobility in the future (job is surprisingly dominated by BYU alum and has a strong Mormon network nationwide). So that adds a nuance to our situation in considering whether to completely walk away or keep a foot in the door.
The question(s):
Is it possible to maintain a half-way relationship with the church and stay sane? Will we get harassed? Will people just consider us lukewarm members and not ask us to do much? Is it worth it to try and do that? Most important question: would that be confusing for our children?
I guess what I'd love to hear from everyone is if your experience can relate to me and my wife at all, what should we think about as critical, first-order concerns? And what things are less critical and maybe inconsequential to what is really important?
What I think is most important is making decisions that will be best for our girls. Dealing with the nuances of my job can be managed and dealt with, but I'm most concerned about doing what's right for our kids. We want them to know that there are good things that can be taken from Mormonism, but there are also bad things and we probably believe in only 40-60% of what Mormonism claims.
Would love to hear advice or direction to resources (links to discussions about this stuff elsewhere) that could answer these questions. If it were just my wife and I we think it would be an easy thing to deal with. But we're wanting to make the best decisions for our girls...
Moving - Managing Activity in Church
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glass shelf
- Posts: 366
- Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:27 pm
Re: Moving - Managing Activity in Church
I don't think the Mormon church is a healthy place for girls, and that's based on my experience growing up as a girl in the church. If you want a religion for your family, surely you can pick one that won't indoctrinate your daughters during their teen years that their one true life goal is to get married and have kids. I don't think there's anything wrong with either of those things, but there's a lot wrong with teaching a girl that that's the only place where her value lies. There's something very wrong with teaching girls that if they have an interest in a career that they aren't being humble or righteous.
Now that I'm in my early 40s finishing up a clinical grad degree and fighting to make my way in the professional world, I can only imagine how much different my life would have been if the church hadn't beaten my ambition out of me as a teen. Now, my parents would tell you that they would have supported me doing these things as young adult, and maybe they would have. I will tell you that the YW program and BYU taught me that there was one righteous way to be a woman, and it messed up so many things about my life.
Even if you and your wife are able to maintain a semi-active relationship with the church, I do think it's confusing and even unfair to children to put them in that situation. imagine going every other Sunday to learn about all the things you should be doing in the one true church to follow God and then ignoring it on the other weeks. For children who develop belief, that would be a situation that causes them to doubt their own worth and righteousness as well as their parents'.
My parents took us to church every Sunday, but they also weren't the best about having FHE or family scripture study, and I often felt like a member of a second-class family as a kid sitting there listening to all those lessons and talks and knowing it wasn't reflective of what was going on at my house.
IMO if you keep taking your girls to church, you run a high risk that one or more will buy into it and be married or on a mission when they're 19.
Now that I'm in my early 40s finishing up a clinical grad degree and fighting to make my way in the professional world, I can only imagine how much different my life would have been if the church hadn't beaten my ambition out of me as a teen. Now, my parents would tell you that they would have supported me doing these things as young adult, and maybe they would have. I will tell you that the YW program and BYU taught me that there was one righteous way to be a woman, and it messed up so many things about my life.
Even if you and your wife are able to maintain a semi-active relationship with the church, I do think it's confusing and even unfair to children to put them in that situation. imagine going every other Sunday to learn about all the things you should be doing in the one true church to follow God and then ignoring it on the other weeks. For children who develop belief, that would be a situation that causes them to doubt their own worth and righteousness as well as their parents'.
My parents took us to church every Sunday, but they also weren't the best about having FHE or family scripture study, and I often felt like a member of a second-class family as a kid sitting there listening to all those lessons and talks and knowing it wasn't reflective of what was going on at my house.
IMO if you keep taking your girls to church, you run a high risk that one or more will buy into it and be married or on a mission when they're 19.
Last edited by glass shelf on Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Moving - Managing Activity in Church
I agree with Glass Shelf, being raised half way in the church just makes a child feel inadequate at church and wonder why, if the parents don't believe it, they are taking them to church.
I was raised half in/half out, and while I never bought all the way in, I did fall in love with a TBM. Which is the biggest part of my staying in the church. So, here I am on NOM some 50 years after my parents stopped believing in Joseph Smith. Now, to be fair, my parents never TOLD us they didn't believe, but they took us or sent us to church, so their actions were sort of like this is very important but not so important that I am going to bother with it. Yes, it was confusing being half in half out.
I think my parents were afraid of nonbelief getting back to their parents, so they were never open with us about it all. But I found out the my mother read No Man Knows My History before I was even born and stopped believing then, but she wore her temple garments until she died, so really, I am still confused about what she believed or not.
I got enough of the business about women's purpose, and I saw the favoritism the boys were given and it hurt--no matter what my parents did or said, being treated as worth less than the boys at church hurt.
Perhaps being in Utah was part of it, but my choices were influenced by what was taught at church, even though my mother tried to teach me feminist stuff, the very fact that she would criticize church teachings, then force me to go to church put a lie to what she said. There was some good stuff at church and the church got it hooks in just far enough that I made choices based on the church rather than the feminist stuff. (Now, "feminist stuff" didn't really exist when my mother was trying to teach me that women should get paid as much as men for the very same work, and the word "feminist" was not invented yet, because the feminist movement had not started)
So, there are real risks to being half in half out. I do not recommend it as a female child raised that way. But then my parents were not open about non belief and I was in Utah and it was the 50s--60s. So, your milage may vary. WILL vary.
Now about your job, if you really think the culture is too Mormon for you to be out of the church, how will being seen as a slacker effect it? Sometimes being seen as a slacker is worse than being seen as a good guy who believes something else. What about changing jobs?
I was raised half in/half out, and while I never bought all the way in, I did fall in love with a TBM. Which is the biggest part of my staying in the church. So, here I am on NOM some 50 years after my parents stopped believing in Joseph Smith. Now, to be fair, my parents never TOLD us they didn't believe, but they took us or sent us to church, so their actions were sort of like this is very important but not so important that I am going to bother with it. Yes, it was confusing being half in half out.
I think my parents were afraid of nonbelief getting back to their parents, so they were never open with us about it all. But I found out the my mother read No Man Knows My History before I was even born and stopped believing then, but she wore her temple garments until she died, so really, I am still confused about what she believed or not.
I got enough of the business about women's purpose, and I saw the favoritism the boys were given and it hurt--no matter what my parents did or said, being treated as worth less than the boys at church hurt.
Perhaps being in Utah was part of it, but my choices were influenced by what was taught at church, even though my mother tried to teach me feminist stuff, the very fact that she would criticize church teachings, then force me to go to church put a lie to what she said. There was some good stuff at church and the church got it hooks in just far enough that I made choices based on the church rather than the feminist stuff. (Now, "feminist stuff" didn't really exist when my mother was trying to teach me that women should get paid as much as men for the very same work, and the word "feminist" was not invented yet, because the feminist movement had not started)
So, there are real risks to being half in half out. I do not recommend it as a female child raised that way. But then my parents were not open about non belief and I was in Utah and it was the 50s--60s. So, your milage may vary. WILL vary.
Now about your job, if you really think the culture is too Mormon for you to be out of the church, how will being seen as a slacker effect it? Sometimes being seen as a slacker is worse than being seen as a good guy who believes something else. What about changing jobs?
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Thoughtful
- Posts: 1162
- Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:54 pm
Re: Moving - Managing Activity in Church
I agree. I believe church pressure about gender roles is largely responsible for decisions I made that put me 10 years behind in my career. I want my girls out before they start dating LDS boys.glass shelf wrote: ↑Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:57 am I don't think the Mormon church is a healthy place for girls, and that's based on my experience growing up as a girl in the church. If you want a religion for your family, surely you can pick one that won't indoctrinate your daughters during their teen years that their one true life goal is to get married and have kids. I don't think there's anything wrong with either of those things, but there's a lot wrong with teaching a girl that that's the only place where her value lies. There's something very wrong with teaching girls that if they have an interest in a career that they aren't being humble or righteous.
Now that I'm in my early 40s finishing up a clinical grad degree and fighting to make my way in the professional world, I can only imagine how much different my life would have been if the church hadn't beaten my ambition out of me as a teen. Now, my parents would tell you that they would have supported me doing these things as young adult, and maybe they would have. I will tell you that the YW program and BYU taught me that there was one righteous way to be a woman, and it messed up so many things about my life.
Even if you and your wife are able to maintain a semi-active relationship with the church, I do think it's confusing and even unfair to children to put them in that situation. imagine going every other Sunday to learn about all the things you should be doing in the one true church to follow God and then ignoring it on the other weeks. For children who develop belief, that would be a situation that causes them to doubt their own worth and righteousness as well as their parents'.
My parents took us to church every Sunday, but they also weren't the best about having FHE or family scripture study, and I often felt like a member of a second-class family as a kid sitting there listening to all those lessons and talks and knowing it wasn't reflective of what was going on at my house.
IMO if you keep taking your girls to church, you run a high risk that one or more will buy into it and be married or on a mission when they're 19.
Also, ap1054, as to your thoughts on moving... If I were in your shoes, I would move and not pick up church again unless I missed it after a sabbatical. If we didn't live near family in a small rural community where my ILs are heavily involved in church, Spouseman would be so much more on board with leaving the church all together. We stay to keep the peace in his family, but it's at the expense of some maritial satisfaction I think.
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Raylan Givens
- Posts: 297
- Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:09 am
Re: Moving - Managing Activity in Church
Staying half-way in is hard, but you can make it work. I do have to say it was easier outside of Utah for me then it is now living in Salty.
You just have to decide what half-way in means to you.
For me, I hold a scout calling and have Ward members over all the time for parties and activities. My wife has a ladies/friend group with people in the ward.
We don't attend church, we just don't think we can be in that way. I know my girls miss some aspects of it, but they like hiking and attending our Sunday secular group meetings more.
You just have to decide what half-way in means to you.
For me, I hold a scout calling and have Ward members over all the time for parties and activities. My wife has a ladies/friend group with people in the ward.
We don't attend church, we just don't think we can be in that way. I know my girls miss some aspects of it, but they like hiking and attending our Sunday secular group meetings more.
"Ah, you know, I think you use the Bible to do whatever the hell you like" - Raylan Givens
Re: Moving - Managing Activity in Church
The LDS church is not nearly mature enough to have the kind of friendly schisms that Judaism enjoys. In Judaism you can be liberal, reform, conservative, orthodox, or Hasidim. There are other variants, but they all acknowledge that each other is Jewish even if they disagree with each other. Jewish ordinances are more cultural rather than fundamentally necessary elements of salvation.
Mormons are much more all or nothing, unfortunately. A teenager attending an LDS ward without a temple recommend makes them an unintentionally second class citizen. The condescending attitude towards that youth and their parents implicitly holds that the whole family should be doing more. The suggestions for such a semi-active family are always directed towards a full LDS commitment of tithing, temple, missions, and ward activity. Being non-standard means that you will constantly have to explain yourself to leaders and other ward members.
It's far more possible as a mature adult, but the social pressure on children and teenagers is intense. There is a quote about the LDS Church attributed to John Larsen of "Mormon Expression Podcast":
Mormons are much more all or nothing, unfortunately. A teenager attending an LDS ward without a temple recommend makes them an unintentionally second class citizen. The condescending attitude towards that youth and their parents implicitly holds that the whole family should be doing more. The suggestions for such a semi-active family are always directed towards a full LDS commitment of tithing, temple, missions, and ward activity. Being non-standard means that you will constantly have to explain yourself to leaders and other ward members.
It's far more possible as a mature adult, but the social pressure on children and teenagers is intense. There is a quote about the LDS Church attributed to John Larsen of "Mormon Expression Podcast":
This is the problem. You can find better ways to live and worship outside the LDS church. It has no interest in accommodating you. The LDS church will use social pressure to hold your family hostage at every major life event.John Larsen wrote:What is good about the church is not unique. And what is unique about the church is not all that good.
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slavereeno
- Posts: 1247
- Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:30 am
- Location: QC, AZ
Re: Moving - Managing Activity in Church
If I truly had the choice, I would get my kids out as soon as I could.
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orangganjil
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:34 pm
Re: Moving - Managing Activity in Church
Our family no longer attends the LDS Church, though we have not resigned. We are leaving the door open for our children should they choose to engage with the LDS Church in the future. Instead, we attend the Episcopal Church and love it.
I would echo the comments of others on this thread, but want to add something I have not seen discussed, especially since it was a motivator for us fully stepping away.
We read about so many LDS couples who struggle or divorce due to the faith transition of one of the spouses. Many, to avoid the pain of a broken marriage, hide their unbelief for years. These situations are incredibly saddening and we want to avoid that situation for our children. If we maintain activity in the LDS Church, it is probable that my children will marry a Mormon. If that happens, the chances of marital strife increase dramatically due to the difficulties of a faith transition in the Mormon culture and theology. It is unhealthy and, by being inactive, it is less probable that my children will marry Mormons (even though we live in Utah), and thus they will have greater freedom to walk their own path of faith in life.
Of course, there are no guarantees, however my wife and I felt that our children will have a greater chance of avoiding unnecessary marital strife as a result of any faith transition they may have later in their life, if they avoid marrying a Mormon; and inactivity decreases the likelihood they will marry a Mormon. However, should they marry a Mormon, we will support them in their choice and love whomever they marry.
I would echo the comments of others on this thread, but want to add something I have not seen discussed, especially since it was a motivator for us fully stepping away.
We read about so many LDS couples who struggle or divorce due to the faith transition of one of the spouses. Many, to avoid the pain of a broken marriage, hide their unbelief for years. These situations are incredibly saddening and we want to avoid that situation for our children. If we maintain activity in the LDS Church, it is probable that my children will marry a Mormon. If that happens, the chances of marital strife increase dramatically due to the difficulties of a faith transition in the Mormon culture and theology. It is unhealthy and, by being inactive, it is less probable that my children will marry Mormons (even though we live in Utah), and thus they will have greater freedom to walk their own path of faith in life.
Of course, there are no guarantees, however my wife and I felt that our children will have a greater chance of avoiding unnecessary marital strife as a result of any faith transition they may have later in their life, if they avoid marrying a Mormon; and inactivity decreases the likelihood they will marry a Mormon. However, should they marry a Mormon, we will support them in their choice and love whomever they marry.
Re: Moving - Managing Activity in Church
Thank you so much to everyone that replied. And if anyone else would like to chip in, would love to hear what you have to say.
Changing jobs isn't much of an option since I'm working through a PhD and what I will do when I graduate will be very specific and a small research world... I really appreciated the thoughts on raising girls in the church. I definitely don't want my girls being stifled by patriarchy, and I would love for them to get at least some grad school before having kids.
We all went to a non-denominational church this last Sunday, and it was amazing. The technology they use for teaching aids, and the process they had for dropping your kids off in the "nursery/primary" equivalent was fantastic (they get your phone number and will text you if your child has any issues as option 1, if they can't get a reply from you, they have screens on the side wall that will flash a number you're given for your specific child if they need your help as option 2 to get in touch with you). Literally, I haven't that good of an experience at Mormon church for at least 4 years (no hyperbole here). The message and music were beautiful - all about God's unconditional love and reaching out to people who live on the margins of society. The poor, homeless, addicts, those w/o friends, etc. And what you can do to get involved in helping the marginalized in the local community. I want to keep going back so badly but my DW is afraid of what her close group of Mormon friends will think, noticing we're not going to church anymore. Sigh...
Changing jobs isn't much of an option since I'm working through a PhD and what I will do when I graduate will be very specific and a small research world... I really appreciated the thoughts on raising girls in the church. I definitely don't want my girls being stifled by patriarchy, and I would love for them to get at least some grad school before having kids.
We all went to a non-denominational church this last Sunday, and it was amazing. The technology they use for teaching aids, and the process they had for dropping your kids off in the "nursery/primary" equivalent was fantastic (they get your phone number and will text you if your child has any issues as option 1, if they can't get a reply from you, they have screens on the side wall that will flash a number you're given for your specific child if they need your help as option 2 to get in touch with you). Literally, I haven't that good of an experience at Mormon church for at least 4 years (no hyperbole here). The message and music were beautiful - all about God's unconditional love and reaching out to people who live on the margins of society. The poor, homeless, addicts, those w/o friends, etc. And what you can do to get involved in helping the marginalized in the local community. I want to keep going back so badly but my DW is afraid of what her close group of Mormon friends will think, noticing we're not going to church anymore. Sigh...