The Emperors New Clothes

[slavereeno]

I am sure I am not the fist to think this but I feel like I can really, really identify with the people who saw the emperor had no clothes more than when I heard that story in grade school.

Here's a sample convorsation between me and a True Believing Citizen:

TBC: "Look at how fine the emperors new clothes are?"
me: "Wait, what? He's buck-ass nude."
TBC: "I can't believe you would say that! His robes are made of the finest, most rare cloth ever made!"
me: "Are you joking, because every time I look up at the emperor my lunch starts to crawl up my esophagus. He looks like one of those blind hairless mole-rats."
TBC: "You only can't see them because you are having man-lust over the Emperor's royal junk."
me: "What? Actually the lectern is strategically placed so I can't even see..."
TBC: "If you would stop lusting, you would see the fine apparel the emperor is wearing. I don't lust after the emperor and so I testify of the greatness of his robes."
me: "The emperor really isn't my cup of tea, I am not lusting after his body, I don't even..."
TBC: "Are you reading the sales pamphlets from the clothing manufacturers every single day? Hmm?"
me: "Well no, they aren't really that interesting, and..."
TBC: "If you were sophisticated, and good, like me, and read the pamphlets every day, you would see the Emperor's fine, fine clothing. I don't think I wan't my kids playing with the kids of a person who can't see the Emperor's clothes."
me: "Oh, well that's too bad, I thought Johnny and Suzie got along really well and..."
TBC: "And I'd like to cancel the contract for you to re-lay the cobblestones on our road."
me: "Hold on, I am the best cobblestone layer in the kingdom and my price is better than..."
TBC: "Well if you could just admit you see the emperors fine clothes, I could reconsider. I just don't think I can do business with someone who is too lazy to read the clothing sales materials each day and can't see the emperors new clothes. You probably aren't paying the extra Emperor's clothing tax anymore either, are you?"
me: "Pay for what!? THERE ARE NO CLOTHES! Look! The emperor is starting to blister with sunburn! Okay, if you can see them so well, what color are the Emperor's Robes?"
TBC: "Color? Uh, color?? That's not important! They are fine, fine, robes and whatever color it is, is a, uh Royal color and a fine color! You're, just bitter and angry."
me: "uh-huh, and the sunburn?"
TBC: "That's not a sunburn, its chaffing from a ride he took on his tapir yesterday."
me: "Tapir? Huh? What the hell are you talking about, just listen to yourself, your aren't making any..."
TBC: "Hup! Let me know when you stop sinning, and can see the emperor's clothes again, then we'll talk."

[didyoumythme]

This is amazing...and disturbingly similar to actual conversations with TBMs

[oliver_denom]

This is how I've felt listen to people talk about the last conference being filled with revelation. They basically reorganized a Sunday school class and changed a few minor details about how they harass active and inactive members. I've read Mormon revelations. I was brought to memorize them, live my life by them, and that sir is no revelation.

[Corsair]

Slavereeno's dialogue identifies one significant aspect of the gulf between believer and heretic. There is no acknowledged basis for testing truth. I would love to see a modern take on this story with with some reference to the famous Seinfeld episode where George yells, "I was in the pool!" If the emperor displayed his new outfit on a chillier day then perhaps there would have been an objective test for clothes based on shrinkage.

I was taught by both mission presidents and Seventies that if a missionary was feeling the spirit in a discussion then the investigator was also feeling the spirit and this was objective evidence that the church was true. We, as ordained missionaries, were supposed to tell the investigators that this spirit they were feeling was the compelling reason to join the church. But you can't measure or detect the qualities of "feeling the spirit". People seeking for spiritual enlightenment will find the spirit in lots of places. The LDS spirit is not measurably different than the spirit felt by anyone else including Catholics, Baptists, Unitarians, Muslims, Scientologists, and other random cults that want you to see and feel the divine, spiritual clothes worn by their leaders.

Slavereeno's dialogue is a conversation I would like to have with a believer, but it would only result in emotional estrangement. LDS culture is infused with enormous social pressure to not ask or tolerate questions with objective answers. The prominent joy proclaimed yesterday over these new "revelations" cannot be dismissed without being cast out of the group.

[deacon blues]

Feeling the Spirit is so vague. I think this is why Joseph Smith built his whole epistemology around it. I think it worked for him in the treasure-digging days, when he couldn't produce real results for his clients/customers. He likely learned it from his family, local preachers, an idiosyncratic interpretation of the bible, and/or people like Lumen Walters. I remember growing up and feeling I was feeling the Spirit when nobody else was, and I wasn't feeling the Spirit when other people did. Until my shelf broke, I tended to trust others more than myself. That was an uncomfortable way to live.

[hiding in plain sight]

I am sure I am not the fist to think this but I feel like I can really, really identify with the people who saw the emperor had no clothes more than when I heard that story in grade school.

Here's a sample convorsation between me and a True Believing Citizen:

I love this dialogue. Here is a conversation I had with a good friend just within the last year.

TBM: Oliver Cowdery knows more than you will ever know about JS and the BOM and he never denied his testimony, so I am going to trust him and not listen to you.
HIPS: You know that JS excommunicated Oliver and told everyone that Oliver was a liar and shouldn't be trusted, right?
TBM: Well they did too much together that can be denied. They saw angels and had the priesthood restored to them. He never denied those things.
HIPS: You know David Whitmer, one of the three witnesses? He wrote a pamphlet challenging both Joseph and Oliver for making stuff up. He accused them of making up the priesthood restoration story only after they met sidney rigdon and they never said anything about priesthood while they were together at the beginning of the church.
TBM: Silence.
TBM: Getting a bit red around the face.
TBM: How can you even attend the church with a straight face. You are such a liar by not admitting openly to your bishop that you don't believe!!!
HIPS: That took a strange turn.

Gratefully we both admitted that we should never talk about religion with each other or it is going to kill our friendship. And luckily we don't.

[græy]

me: "Pay for what!? THERE ARE NO CLOTHES! Look! The emperor is starting to blister with sunburn! Okay, if you can see them so well, what color are the Emperor's Robes?"
TBC: "Color? Uh, color?? That's not important! They are fine, fine, robes and whatever color it is, is a, uh Royal color and a fine color! You're, just bitter and angry."

Don't worry about the color. We'll know all those minor details after we die. Just focus on the clothes!

Isn't the point of continuing revelation to fill in the blanks? Like who's home we'll go to for Thanksgiving dinner in the CK? Will my kids come to mine? Will we all go to my parents? Or theirs? Or do we all go to Adam's bigger-than-the-Earth mansion? Also, what about my brother Joey Joe Joe Jr. Shabadoo, who died in a car wreck while smoking the pot with a prostitute?... and he also drank coffee. Heaven won't be heaven without my brother! - Answer: It will all work out, just focus on the clothes!

Also, +1 for the whole thing slavereeno!

[Jeffret]

Feeling the Spirit is so vague. I think this is why Joseph Smith built his whole epistemology around it. I think it worked for him in the treasure-digging days, when he couldn't produce real results for his clients/customers. He likely learned it from his family, local preachers, an idiosyncratic interpretation of the bible, and/or people like Lumen Walters.

I'm not sure Joseph really built his epistemology around feeling the spirit. I think that what we know as "feeling the spirit" is primarily a much more modern invention, molded into being by the modern church. And codified by standardized materials and lessons, particularly in the missionary program.

Joseph's approach was more about leading by the lures of his charismatic personality and his exciting, expansive vision. He didn't teach people to know the truth by the feelings of the spirit, he boldly taught what he proclaimed to be truth and those who felt invigorated by that, or by the opportunities it afforded, responded and then they followed him. That's typical of a charismatic leader. They don't teach you to recognize your feelings. They present a big, bold vision and expect people to flock to them.

[wtfluff]

I'm not sure Joseph really built his epistemology around feeling the spirit. I think that what we know as "feeling the spirit" is primarily a much more modern invention, molded into being by the modern church. And codified by standardized materials and lessons, particularly in the missionary program.

Joseph's approach was more about leading by the lures of his charismatic personality and his exciting, expansive vision. He didn't teach people to know the truth by the feelings of the spirit, he boldly taught what he proclaimed to be truth and those who felt invigorated by that, or by the opportunities it afforded, responded and then they followed him. That's typical of a charismatic leader. They don't teach you to recognize your feelings. They present a big, bold vision and expect people to flock to them.

Moroni 10, 3-5?

Isn't that all about "feeling the spirit"?

[Reuben]

I'm not sure Joseph really built his epistemology around feeling the spirit. I think that what we know as "feeling the spirit" is primarily a much more modern invention, molded into being by the modern church. And codified by standardized materials and lessons, particularly in the missionary program.

Joseph's approach was more about leading by the lures of his charismatic personality and his exciting, expansive vision. He didn't teach people to know the truth by the feelings of the spirit, he boldly taught what he proclaimed to be truth and those who felt invigorated by that, or by the opportunities it afforded, responded and then they followed him. That's typical of a charismatic leader. They don't teach you to recognize your feelings. They present a big, bold vision and expect people to flock to them.

Moroni 10, 3-5?

Isn't that all about "feeling the spirit"?

That's what we assume it means to "manifest" the truth by the spirit nowadays. I'm sure Joseph Smith would have recognized many kinds of manifestations, burning in the bosom included (going by the revelation to Oliver on translation).

IMO, what most members think of as the spirit is lack of negative emotions like fear, guilt, shame and cognitive dissonance (i.e. peace), and a feeling of love and belonging (warm fuzzies, burning in the bosom). When an organization requires you to conform in thought and behavior in order to feel like you belong, you'll naturally "feel the spirit" more when you conform more. This makes you more certain of your worldview, increasing your conviction to conform. It's a positive feedback loop.

It seems inevitable to me that if a shared worldview starts by admitting those good feelings as evidence of truth and acceptance by God, they'll become the dominant form of evidence.

[Corsair]

Moroni 10, 3-5?

Isn't that all about "feeling the spirit"?

I think Joseph stumbled into a lot of ideas that he did not entirely think through. The idea of "feeling the spirit" was possibly one of the good ideas. He just put it out there and it took a couple of decades for this idea to really catch on. I realize that the book of Moroni was not the last book he dictated in the Book of Mormon, but it makes a literary denouement to have this final testimony be expressed with "by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

I could accept that Joseph really believed it in his own lfe. Notice that Joseph just puts the Book of Mormon out there are evidence of his prophetic calling, but he never really quotes from it or expounds on the gospel from Book of Mormon scriptures. Joseph had his new book of scripture and ongoing revelation which was enough to convince converts in the 1840s. Moroni's Promise takes a few decades to catch on.

Not all of Joseph's new ideas worked out so well. Plural marriage, the Kirtland Bank, Zion's Camp, selling the Book of Mormon copyright, and Missouri in general were among the less fruitful ideas. It's annoying to read the D&C and have the blame for some of these debacles placed on the sins and unfaithfulness of the early converts. "Emperor Joseph's New Clothes" did not alway pan out. But enough of them did and here we are today.

[wtfluff]

D&C 9 is another one from Joseph that's used a lot as far as "feeling the spirit" too.

Yes, we know that section is really targeted at Oliver Cowdery because he couldn't get his magic wands to work for "translating", but it seems that "burning in the bosom" and other "gifts of the spirit" were definitely part of the schtick...

[Jeffret]

Moroni 10, 3-5?

Isn't that all about "feeling the spirit"?

Yes, but in some ways it is proof-texted by the modern church. In Joseph's life, though, he didn't really live that in the same way that we interpret it today, as far as I can tell. Joseph's behavior doesn't seem to be notably different than James 1:5 and essentially Moroni 10:3-5 is just a longer restatement of the same. In Joseph's life, it was more about him, his "prophetic" abilities, and the way he drew people to him. The modern church has codified it.

D&C 9 is more about describing how Joseph operated with his "prophetic" abilities. He studied things out, pondered them, figured them out, felt what seemed right, and then did it. Usually all in pretty rapid fashion. He didn't run pilot programs, focus groups, gather data, and discuss it for months and years.

Joseph's behavior in that regards, or his epistemology, doesn't seem noticeably different from other charismatic leaders of new religions. Certainly he operated in an intuitive / visionary / mystical fashion. Certainly he studied other things, such as his Kabbalah studies. But, he wasn't seeking to confirm what his leaders told him, because he was that leader and he acted independently. And, from what I can tell, he preached his revelations and visions independently, as truth, without asking his followers to think about how they felt and whether they felt the spirit.

I admit it's somewhat of a subtle distinction I'm attempting to draw. The idea of relying on one's feelings is common in religious arenas, because there are no data to do anything otherwise. The Mormon Church has really codified it and honed the message, but variations on it occur commonly in religion. But, I think Joseph's actions and preachings were a bit different. Yes, he talked about and relied on the importance of feelings, but not in the ways that are somewhat unique to Mormonism today.