Clamping Down on Statistical Websites

[Just This Guy]

First Amendment anyone?

That only applies to governments control of speech and the press. Private organizations are not covered under the 1st amendment. That's a whole different set of laws involved here.

[oliblish]

This church statistics blog used to be open and readable to all. Now it is restricted. It listed wards and branches that were created or discontinued around the world. There was another site for US branches and wards.

http://ldsunitgrowth.blogspot.com/

Here is what I see when I try to go to the site:

This blog is open to invited readers only
http://ldsunitgrowth.blogspot.com/
It doesn't look like you have been invited to read this blog. If you think this is a mistake, you might want to contact the blog author and request an invitation.

Here is what was there until recently:

https://web.archive.org/web/20180313182 ... gspot.com/

It looks like the church doesn't want anyone displaying which units have shut down around the world.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

The stats are still up on LDS.org but the numbers are a total number of congregations for each area, no detail about stakes, wards and branches.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/facts-and-statistics

[StarbucksMom]

Wow.

Welcome to Dallin calling the shots instead of Dieter.

[Mormorrisey]

While I have no desire to join another church, and have very little patience with religion in general, the statistical report of the Seventh Day Adventists is a stark contrast to mormonnewsroom's coverage of 2017 statistics:

http://documents.adventistarchives.org/ ... SR2017.pdf

OVER 100 PAGES OF STATISTICAL ANALYSIS, not just membership stats but also an accounting of the tithing and offerings they are pulling in. Now, I'm no dummy, and like Holland I have a PhD and went to "a good school," so I would still look askance at any group of statistics as they are still massaged to some degree, but the contrast is striking. Not only do we get no financial or drilled-down data, they are now closing down statistical websites. And I agree, this is all Dallin's doing.

Shouldn't the Lord's church have no fear in reporting what they are doing, nay, spreading this good news to all and sundry? Methinks something is a bit off.

[wtfluff]

The stats are still up on LDS.org but the numbers are a total number of congregations for each area, no detail about stakes, wards and branches.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/facts-and-statistics

That appears to be last year (2016.)

Here is the "2017" report, posted "during" April 2018 GC:

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/ ... conference

It's OK to just "look" at those numbers, but if you take those numbers and start doing mathematical comparisons with last year's numbers, then the "legal department" could ask you to not post those mathematical comparisons on a website. Mathematical facts, using the numbers that LDS-Inc. has posted on their website show that many of the numbers are in decline. Everyone "knows" that some facts are not very useful. Especially when a giant, billion-dollar real-estate corporation, masquerading as a church wants "believers" to keep believing. (Mostly, the corporation wants believers to keep giving their money to the corporation.)

[Archimedes]

It's OK to just "look" at those numbers, but if you take those numbers and start doing mathematical comparisons with last year's numbers, then the "legal department" could ask you to not post those mathematical comparisons on a website. Mathematical facts, using the numbers that LDS-Inc. has posted on their website show that many of the numbers are in decline. Everyone "knows" that some facts are not very useful. Especially when a giant, billion-dollar real-estate corporation, masquerading as a church wants "believers" to keep believing. (Mostly, the corporation wants believers to keep giving their money to the corporation.)

Faith and blind obedience do not require any maths.

If you need any maths done, please see your local church leaders.

[græy]

It's OK to just "look" at those numbers, but if you take those numbers and start doing mathematical comparisons with last year's numbers, then the "legal department" could ask you to not post those mathematical comparisons on a website. Mathematical facts, using the numbers that LDS-Inc. has posted on their website show that many of the numbers are in decline. Everyone "knows" that some facts are not very useful. Especially when a giant, billion-dollar real-estate corporation, masquerading as a church wants "believers" to keep believing. (Mostly, the corporation wants believers to keep giving their money to the corporation.)

There a lot dichotomies in the church. Here are the relevant ones.

Dichotomy the First
1- Because the church is true it will "roll forth and fill the Earth."
2- Filling the Earth is a measurable metric and is NOT happening.

Dichotomy the Second
1- When there is no evidence for something we should have faith (hope for something not seen, but which is true).**
2- If there is strong contradictory evidence, what your have isn't faith, its delusion.

Dichotomy Resolution
1- If hard evidence falsifies proposition 1, hide the evidence

[hiding in plain sight]

This is totally crazy. In what PR world does it make sense to do this? And we all know that the PR god is the one running this church.

Sounds very true. But they are doing a terrible job.

[slavereeno]

Dichotomy the First
1- Because the church is true it will "roll forth and fill the Earth."
2- Filling the Earth is a measurable metric and is NOT happening.

Dichotomy the Second
1- When there is no evidence for something we should have faith (hope for something not seen, but which is true).**
2- If there is strong contradictory evidence, what your have isn't faith, its delusion.

Dichotomy Resolution
1- If hard evidence falsifies proposition 1, hide the evidence

This. The big problem is that facts, logic and reason aren't factors in the TBM's epistemology.

[blazerb]

While I have no desire to join another church, and have very little patience with religion in general, the statistical report of the Seventh Day Adventists is a stark contrast to mormonnewsroom's coverage of 2017 statistics:

http://documents.adventistarchives.org/ ... SR2017.pdf

OVER 100 PAGES OF STATISTICAL ANALYSIS, not just membership stats but also an accounting of the tithing and offerings they are pulling in. Now, I'm no dummy, and like Holland I have a PhD and went to "a good school," so I would still look askance at any group of statistics as they are still massaged to some degree, but the contrast is striking. Not only do we get no financial or drilled-down data, they are now closing down statistical websites. And I agree, this is all Dallin's doing.

Shouldn't the Lord's church have no fear in reporting what they are doing, nay, spreading this good news to all and sundry? Methinks something is a bit off.

That report is amazing. It shows historical data. It shows demographics. I am amazed. I have been so conditioned that a church shuts down information that I have trouble imagining anything different. Clearly, I was wrong. Such openness may help explain why they are a much larger group than the Mormons.

[oliblish]

I hope this doesn't affect the cumorah.com website. I have enjoyed looking through their statistical profiles of individual countries for a number of years. The stats for 2017 have not been posted yet and I am anxious to look through them. IIRC, they usually are updated shortly after April Conference, but with the legal threats from the church lately, I wonder what to expect.

We might be ok because it looks like right now the only sites that have been affected are those that list individual wards and branches being created, discontinued, or otherwise changed.

[Archimedes]

The Church needs to consider that the main reason these websites exist is to fill the information void created by the current church leaders. I guess it's not even an information void, it's more selective spinning of faith-promoting data, intended to put the church in the best light possible.

Hey, LDS Church, open up your books to the general public. What are you hiding???

[Mormorrisey]

I hope this doesn't affect the cumorah.com website. I have enjoyed looking through their statistical profiles of individual countries for a number of years. The stats for 2017 have not been posted yet and I am anxious to look through them. IIRC, they usually are updated shortly after April Conference, but with the legal threats from the church lately, I wonder what to expect.

We might be ok because it looks like right now the only sites that have been affected are those that list individual wards and branches being created, discontinued, or otherwise changed.

I'm with you on that, although Matt's blog hasn't updated the latest stake organizations; while I see the church slowing down, it's hard for me to believe that the last stake the church organized was on March 5th. So it looks like things will change even for them. It's quite sad.

[oliblish]

Found this here: https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/topic/church-growth

According to the National Council of Churches, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the second-fastest-growing church in the United States. However, despite its increasing numbers, the Church cautions against overemphasis on growth statistics. The Church makes no statistical comparisons with other churches and makes no claim to be the fastest-growing Christian denomination despite frequent news media comments to that effect. Such comparisons rarely take account of a multiplicity of complex factors, including activity rates and death rates, the methodology used in registering or counting members and what factors constitute membership. Growth rates also vary significantly across the world. Additionally, many other factors contribute to the strength of the Church, most especially the devotion and commitment of its members.

They didn't mention which church was number one, and there was no footnote about this statistic from the National Council of Churches, so I googled it. I found an article in The Christian Post from 2008 that referenced it:

https://www.christianpost.com/news/jeho ... u-s-31266/

The two fastest-growing church bodies in the United States and Canada, according to a newly published report, are ones whose beliefs are known to conflict with traditional Christian teaching.

Jehovah's Witnesses and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, regarded by many Christians as cults, reported the largest membership increases in a year, according to the National Council of Churches' 2008 Yearbook of American & Canadian Churches.

Although Jehovah's Witnesses currently rank 25th in size with over 1.06 million members, they reported a 2.25 percent increase in membership since the publication of the 2007 Yearbook. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – also known as the Mormon church – grew 1.56 percent and is listed by the NCC as the fourth largest "church."

Notably, however, both Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormon church are not accepted within many Christian circles as part of the larger Body of Christ over a number of controversial beliefs that the two religions hold. Identification of the former religion as Christian, among other controversies, is debated largely due to their rejection of the Trinity, which most Christians regard as a fundamental doctrine. Latter-day Saints, meanwhile, are often criticized for their belief in "divine" books of scripture, aside from the Bible, including the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

Mormonism was formally listed under "cults and sects" by the Southern Baptist Convention – the largest Protestant denomination in the nation – but was more recently categorized among "newly developed religions" on the North American Mission Board apologetics page.

....

[Jeffret]

Found this here: https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/topic/church-growth
...
https://www.christianpost.com/news/jeho ... u-s-31266/

These two are both a little old in this fast-moving area of church growth statistics. The National Council of Churches report was from 2008. The various surveys have shown substantial shifts during that time. It's still probably true the LDS Church is one of the fastest growing, meaning that they're still actually reporting growth and haven't yet hit a decline. Yet. They're certainly headed that way, though, as the latest numbers continue to show. My guess is that they've already started to decline in the USA. The external numbers don't quite show that yet. Given, their small percentage of the overall population it will take a while still for their decline to exceed the noise level in national surveys. Given the church's recent actions, I'll bet the internal numbers show a decline in the U.S.A.

Neither of these articles address the fact that by far the largest growing religious group in America is "None of the above", primarily those that don't participate in any organized religion. Growth in that group is substantially larger than the Mormons or JWs.

[Jeffret]

Depending on how you define "church", the answer comes out very differently in these sorts of rankings. By far, the fastest growing churches are individual ones led by a dominant, charismatic individual. They may or may not be affiliated with a national organization. Sometimes these are megachurches with explosive growth, though generally the smaller the church, the easier it is attain high growth percentages. At 15 million members, it is hard to double that amount, but when you only have 6 members, 4566.67% growth isn't amazing. If you use the sociological definition for cult, then usually the church with the largest growth rate is a cult, particularly a personality cult.

In semi-related news, a recently released survey shows that Catholic participation has been undergoing a dramatic decline: https://www.upi.com/Gallup-Weekly-Catho ... 523304494/. When the declines in religious affiliation and participation first really got attention in the 90's, many people blamed the declines on liberal churches, claiming that conservative churches still maintained attendance because that's what the people really needed and because they stuck to Truth. The Catholic Church was listed among those staunch, steadfast, conservative churches. These days they're certainly not held up as one of those shining lights of attendance success. Part of their decline has surely been caused by the many scandals they've had.

[deacon blues]

While I have no desire to join another church, and have very little patience with religion in general, the statistical report of the Seventh Day Adventists is a stark contrast to mormonnewsroom's coverage of 2017 statistics:

http://documents.adventistarchives.org/ ... SR2017.pdf

OVER 100 PAGES OF STATISTICAL ANALYSIS, not just membership stats but also an accounting of the tithing and offerings they are pulling in. Now, I'm no dummy, and like Holland I have a PhD and went to "a good school," so I would still look askance at any group of statistics as they are still massaged to some degree, but the contrast is striking. Not only do we get no financial or drilled-down data, they are now closing down statistical websites. And I agree, this is all Dallin's doing.

Shouldn't the Lord's church have no fear in reporting what they are doing, nay, spreading this good news to all and sundry? Methinks something is a bit off.

20 million Seventh day Adventists?! When did they pass "the fastest growing church LDS?"

[achilles]

BTW, Matt is a high quality human being. He was in my ward when I was getting my doctorate. Good guy. Not a mean bone in his body. And he cares about the Church--a lot.

[Mormorrisey]

BTW, Matt is a high quality human being. He was in my ward when I was getting my doctorate. Good guy. Not a mean bone in his body. And he cares about the Church--a lot.

Not to be overly fawning, but that to me comes loud and clear through Matt's blog. He's interested in analyzing the numbers and the truth of it, not the spin. I have a lot of time for him, and it's good to hear he's a fine human being to boot.