Hello,
I've come to realize that the best way - at least for me personally, is the middle way (the NOM way). I think this applies to a lot - between extremes is usually the ideal, but especially with the church. My husband is quite TBM and many of my family and friends are. The U2 song, "With or without you" comes to mind.
The church is true, as in being a true entity - it exists. But as far as it being 100% true and good - it's not. Nor is it 100% false and bad. There's some good - like a sense of community especially. I've got some good friends through the church - and of course I wouldn't be connecting here with you good people if it weren't for the church. Yet, it's also got some issues like financial corruption and dysfunctional teachings and procedures that inspire anxiety and depression.
It's been several years since I had a faith crisis, but I feel I still have much to learn and could use some support here and there - and I'd like to be a source of support for others - in navigating the middle way.
Middle way or bust!
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MalcolmVillager
- Posts: 703
- Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:01 pm
Re: Middle way or bust!
Welcome to the middle. This is a great space that had helped me through some tough cognitive dissonance in life.
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didyoumythme
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:26 pm
Re: Middle way or bust!
Welcome - the church and the world need more people like you who are willing to see in color, not just black and white.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being honest, or cease being mistaken. - Anonymous
Re: Middle way or bust!
Newme welcome to the party! Yes there is much to learn and share on this board. I am looking forward to hearing more about you.
"Every event that has taken place in this universe has led you to this moment.
... The real question is, what will you do with this moment?" - Unknown
"Never arrive @ a point where you know everything - Korihor57
... The real question is, what will you do with this moment?" - Unknown
"Never arrive @ a point where you know everything - Korihor57
Re: Middle way or bust!
Thanks for the warm welcome!
Already, I feel good being here.
Already, I feel good being here.
Re: Middle way or bust!
Welcome Newme!
Where do you see yourself in the context of your evolving faith in five years?
What? We can interview the newbies, right?
Where do you see yourself in the context of your evolving faith in five years?
What? We can interview the newbies, right?
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
Re: Middle way or bust!
By what authority?Red Ryder wrote:We can interview the newbies, right?
Oh yeah, Welcome NewME
Reading can severely damage your ignorance.
Re: Middle way or bust!
Welcome! I agree that the middle way is the best option for some people. Here is where those people can come and vent! 
Always been the good kid, but I wanted to know more, and to find and test truth.
Re: Middle way or bust!
We're glad you joined us, Newme. I think you'll feel right at home.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Re: Middle way or bust!
Your Honor, he is trying to lead the witness. It has clearly been established that we are to follow the road in the middle, the one with the yellow bricks! Welcome.Red Ryder wrote:Welcome Newme!
Where do you see yourself in the context of your evolving faith in five years?
What? We can interview the newbies, right?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha
-- Moksha
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Meilingkie
- Posts: 403
- Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 8:40 pm
- Location: Tilburg
- Contact:
Re: Middle way or bust!
The yellow brick road Moksha??
Don´t fool the newbies.
Being NOM is more akin to climbing the El Cap, freestyle that is......
Or the Southwestface of Everest, The Eiger Northface.
Things like that.
Bloody hard, dangerous, exposed, and rockfall/avalanche-prone.
I choose to climb Everest, the hard way.
Don´t fool the newbies.
Being NOM is more akin to climbing the El Cap, freestyle that is......
Or the Southwestface of Everest, The Eiger Northface.
Things like that.
Bloody hard, dangerous, exposed, and rockfall/avalanche-prone.
I choose to climb Everest, the hard way.
"Getting the Mormon out of the Church is easier than getting the Mormon out of the Ex-Mormon"
Re: Middle way or bust!
But with friends like those here, it makes the climb much easier.Meilingkie wrote:The yellow brick road Moksha??
Don´t fool the newbies.
Being NOM is more akin to climbing the El Cap, freestyle that is......
Or the Southwestface of Everest, The Eiger Northface.
Things like that.
Bloody hard, dangerous, exposed, and rockfall/avalanche-prone.
I choose to climb Everest, the hard way.
Reading can severely damage your ignorance.
Re: Middle way or bust!
Welcome, Newme! Glad to have someone who knows what it's like to be stuck in the middle. Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right . . .
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest. -anon
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. -Max Born
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. -Max Born
Re: Middle way or bust!
Thanks, guys! 
There are some days when it feels like the yellow brick road, and others when I'm barely hanging from Everest.
RedRyder,
5 years? A lot depends. Leadership roulette - you know. And my marriage has taken several hits.
But assuming I'm lucky, I'll be doing as I am similarly now - because my kids will still need support in going to church.
About once a month, I'll skip church to go to Oasis or a meet up - or just chat on here.
As far as personal (not external) faith, I'm working on improving my psychology - overcoming things to be more genuinely spiritual and loving.
What about you? (I can interview the interviewer right?)
There are some days when it feels like the yellow brick road, and others when I'm barely hanging from Everest.
RedRyder,
5 years? A lot depends. Leadership roulette - you know. And my marriage has taken several hits.
But assuming I'm lucky, I'll be doing as I am similarly now - because my kids will still need support in going to church.
About once a month, I'll skip church to go to Oasis or a meet up - or just chat on here.
As far as personal (not external) faith, I'm working on improving my psychology - overcoming things to be more genuinely spiritual and loving.
What about you? (I can interview the interviewer right?)
Re: Middle way or bust!
I'm 12 years into this rabbit hole.
I'll summarize my journey for you in segments.
Years 1 - 5: I kept it mainly to myself and slowly extricated myself mentally. I found support online and read up in all the issues. My kids were babies so it was easy to be the dad in the hall with the crying baby and pre-nursery toddler. I quietly slipped out of my garments each morning, showered and dressed for work, than got home from work and quickly, changed into work out clothes. I did this for some time until one day I realized how stupid it was. I stopped wearing the lower half but kept wearing the t-shirts. Tithing kept getting pushed out each month and saved until at the end of the year. I paid large lump sums the first few years. Year 4, I stopped and declared myself a non tithe payer. The whole time I was a primary teacher with the little kids, so the calling didn't matter because I never actually prepared anything.
Years 6 -9: I found the elusive "indifference" that Corsair preaches often about. Mainly because I changed jobs and was determine and hyper focused on my job/career. I baptized my kids and just pretended until they changed the rules and a TR was needed to confirm the HG. I dropped a few hundred dollars shy of $3,000 to get a TR and confirm the last kid a member of the church. This raised my anger to come back and my indifference to go away. I was a NOM lurker but thought the middle way wasn't sustainable but joined in 2013 to vent and validate that I wasn't the crazy one. I was still a pretender and hadn't told anyone of my faith disintegration.
Years 10 - 12: We moved and I lost my status as a half assed mormon when the bishop of the new ward called me in for a TR renewal. I told him I didn't want one and explained I found it goofy and weird. He laughed and said I should go more often. I said no thanks. I finally admitted to myself that I no longer believed at all. The Late War was the final blow.
The next 5 years: I want to spend my energy getting the family to the point of acceptance where I'm free to be me. The hang up is I still don't know who I am. The church has provided my life blue print and I'm struggling to find myself. I see the point in time where I may sit outside the temple while my own kids get married inside. The church will most likely steal that from me. I'm ok with that but also have time to continue to teach them how to think for themselves. Once they are on their own, then I plan to evaluate my relationships (parents, spouse, church) and make necessary adjustments in the pursuit of my happiness.
Life is truly more beautiful even though it's been a crazy ride. It's like having your eyes opened and why would anyone want to go back? It's been worth the heartache to keep the family together. Divorce was the fear that kept me silent for too long. In retrospect, I should have never kept silent and worked through this together. Who knows, maybe we would have both been out by now. Or 10 years post divorce. All I know is kicking the can down the road hasn't been the best way.
Welcome to NOM!
I'll summarize my journey for you in segments.
Years 1 - 5: I kept it mainly to myself and slowly extricated myself mentally. I found support online and read up in all the issues. My kids were babies so it was easy to be the dad in the hall with the crying baby and pre-nursery toddler. I quietly slipped out of my garments each morning, showered and dressed for work, than got home from work and quickly, changed into work out clothes. I did this for some time until one day I realized how stupid it was. I stopped wearing the lower half but kept wearing the t-shirts. Tithing kept getting pushed out each month and saved until at the end of the year. I paid large lump sums the first few years. Year 4, I stopped and declared myself a non tithe payer. The whole time I was a primary teacher with the little kids, so the calling didn't matter because I never actually prepared anything.
Years 6 -9: I found the elusive "indifference" that Corsair preaches often about. Mainly because I changed jobs and was determine and hyper focused on my job/career. I baptized my kids and just pretended until they changed the rules and a TR was needed to confirm the HG. I dropped a few hundred dollars shy of $3,000 to get a TR and confirm the last kid a member of the church. This raised my anger to come back and my indifference to go away. I was a NOM lurker but thought the middle way wasn't sustainable but joined in 2013 to vent and validate that I wasn't the crazy one. I was still a pretender and hadn't told anyone of my faith disintegration.
Years 10 - 12: We moved and I lost my status as a half assed mormon when the bishop of the new ward called me in for a TR renewal. I told him I didn't want one and explained I found it goofy and weird. He laughed and said I should go more often. I said no thanks. I finally admitted to myself that I no longer believed at all. The Late War was the final blow.
The next 5 years: I want to spend my energy getting the family to the point of acceptance where I'm free to be me. The hang up is I still don't know who I am. The church has provided my life blue print and I'm struggling to find myself. I see the point in time where I may sit outside the temple while my own kids get married inside. The church will most likely steal that from me. I'm ok with that but also have time to continue to teach them how to think for themselves. Once they are on their own, then I plan to evaluate my relationships (parents, spouse, church) and make necessary adjustments in the pursuit of my happiness.
Life is truly more beautiful even though it's been a crazy ride. It's like having your eyes opened and why would anyone want to go back? It's been worth the heartache to keep the family together. Divorce was the fear that kept me silent for too long. In retrospect, I should have never kept silent and worked through this together. Who knows, maybe we would have both been out by now. Or 10 years post divorce. All I know is kicking the can down the road hasn't been the best way.
Welcome to NOM!
Last edited by Red Ryder on Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
Re: Middle way or bust!
Wow, RedRyder - it's been 12 years!
It's understandable you'd be a bit tired of the long road trip.
I admire that you're hanging in there - for your marriage and to keep the family together.
That's what I'm trying to do also. We came so close to divorcing - and we may once the kids are older, but I feel obligated to do all I can to keep our family together. As long as there isn't abuse etc., kids do much better with both parents.
I agree that life is so much more beautiful - and less heavy (less shame and anxiety) since seeing new perspectives.
I'd never want to go back, though I do really love the spirit - but I've found I can feel the spirit more often and it's rarely church-related.
Sunsets, some views of the mountains and being in the mountains, feeling connected with others - it's much richer than ever before.
You mentioned you aren't sure who you are - you're struggling to find yourself. What do you think it would take for you to discover what you believe, feel - and who you are?
It's understandable you'd be a bit tired of the long road trip.
I admire that you're hanging in there - for your marriage and to keep the family together.
That's what I'm trying to do also. We came so close to divorcing - and we may once the kids are older, but I feel obligated to do all I can to keep our family together. As long as there isn't abuse etc., kids do much better with both parents.
I agree that life is so much more beautiful - and less heavy (less shame and anxiety) since seeing new perspectives.
I'd never want to go back, though I do really love the spirit - but I've found I can feel the spirit more often and it's rarely church-related.
Sunsets, some views of the mountains and being in the mountains, feeling connected with others - it's much richer than ever before.
You mentioned you aren't sure who you are - you're struggling to find yourself. What do you think it would take for you to discover what you believe, feel - and who you are?
Re: Middle way or bust!
Time.Newme wrote:You mentioned you aren't sure who you are - you're struggling to find yourself. What do you think it would take for you to discover what you believe, feel - and who you are?
I've settled on my beliefs as an apathetic agnostic. God or some form of deity is there in a "comforting presence/ natural beauty found in nature" sort of way. Not in an organized religion, building, or set of doctrinal theories sort of way. I'm too spiritually and intellectually lazy beyond this vague and cageless definition of god.
I'm perfectly content with my feelings and find I cycle through phases evidenced by my choice in music, podcasts, and overall media consumption. I'm currently in a phase where I curse under my breath and covertly flip off everyone. It's the holidays, they turn me into the grinch. The new year and spring will signal a time to grow and change.
As for everything else, I'm finding I can be whatever I want and don't need to worry if I change my mind six months from now.
Thanks for the interview!
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
Re: Middle way or bust!
Welcome! I completely support the middle way, hence why I'm here. While I don't embrace it personally, I do approve of it.
Re: Middle way or bust!
RedRyder,
Thanks for explaining. Time - actually the changes that occur as time passes - does well, make things change!
I hope you find yourself in ways that help you feel better about life and all that goes with it.
Document,
Thanks!
Thanks for explaining. Time - actually the changes that occur as time passes - does well, make things change!
I hope you find yourself in ways that help you feel better about life and all that goes with it.
Document,
Thanks!
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MalcolmVillager
- Posts: 703
- Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:01 pm
Re: Middle way or bust!
RR, I am glad you still come and share with us. I hope to not be in the middle 13 years. I know you can't go back to TBM world but I don't see a way out the other door right now either. I have often felt that if my DW puts up with me long enough to get the kids out of the house and then divorces me I would be pretty pissed. If we are to divorce I want it now.
I don't want that of course. I would never fond anyone better and we are truly happy. Church is a discomfort for me to have happiness at home. There are worse things.
I don't want that of course. I would never fond anyone better and we are truly happy. Church is a discomfort for me to have happiness at home. There are worse things.