Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
One of my little side projects is creating annotated versions of Gospel Topics essays. I insert notes and commentary directly into the essay, which I find to be a very effective way responding directly to the tap-dancing, half-truths and deflections. I have recently updated all of my efforts so far and added my real name and email, just in case anyone actually sees them and is interested in giving feedback or criticism (or extending an invitation to a court of love ).
Edit 2: Some months ago, I went looking for sources that described how the Urim and Thummim worked. The only description of them I could find that said that the lenses were clear came from JS's mother. Other sources described the lenses as opaque. I don't remember if it was said directly, but I remember my impression that JS used the U&T by putting his face in a hat while wearing them. This is supported by his need for a scribe for the 116 pages.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.
Thanks Reuben. Yeah, that Green Eggs and Ham article is great.
At some point I mention that Lucy Mack Smith described the stones as "three cornered diamonds set in glass," while Martin Harris said they were opaque white stones with grey lines running through them. When you compare the various descriptions it becomes clear that no one actually saw them, they were just describing what they thought they looked like, based on Joseph's description. Besides, like the gold plates, they came with a death sentence if you looked at them.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Hagoth wrote: ↑Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:05 pmBesides, like the gold plates, they came with a death sentence if you looked at them.
Which is absolutely hilarious if you really think about it. What better way to prove the veracity of your prophetic claims than to kill off a couple of your enemies by "accidentally" letting them see the plates, or the magic prehistoric spectacles?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus
Hagoth wrote: ↑Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:05 pmBesides, like the gold plates, they came with a death sentence if you looked at them.
Which is absolutely hilarious if you really think about it. What better way to prove the veracity of your prophetic claims than to kill off a couple of your enemies by "accidentally" letting them see the plates, or the magic prehistoric spectacles?
Yeah, like when Oral Roberts said God would kill him if his followers didn't come up with 8 million dollars by a certain day. It seemed like the greatest thing he could do for his cause would be to get struck down by God on that day for all the world to see. But nope, they came through with the cash. Score 1 for religious leaders demanding money, 0 for evidence of God.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
I'm about half-way through as well. The quote from Lucy Smith is the first I've ever heard of it. That was a nice find.
One of the things that always troubled me is the way the church "cherry picks" information. I know, for example, that David Whitmer's treaties "To All Believers in Christ" is one of the primary sources the church used to describe the hat method (i've seen it used in other places when the church was forced to disclose). But that work from David ALSO refutes the entire priesthood restoration myth. So, the church will use one part they like, and then discount another from the same authenic source? Cherry Picking.
That might be interesting to include--this practice is yellow journalism IMHO. Just a thought. Your probably already have a reference like this.....
I've bookmarked these and plan to spend time with the them in the future. Reading through your BofM translation piece right now. You write very well and the tone is objective. Well done!
ap1054 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:42 pm
I've bookmarked these and plan to spend time with the them in the future. Reading through your BofM translation piece right now. You write very well and the tone is objective. Well done!
Please let me know what you think about the tone of the others if you get around to them. I've had a little more distance since I wrote those.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
moksha wrote: ↑Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:56 am
Hagoth, I am very impressed with your tenacity and energy level. First your archeological studies and now your essays. Thumbs up!
BTW, have you considered making these into some podcasts?
I agree that they could make good podcasts, but I don't know if I have the kind of personality to pull it off. Not really my shtick. I thought I might record a listener essay and submit it to IOT, just to see if I'm capable of that sort of thing.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
I wanted to make sure and Thank you too Hagoth! These are awesome, really well done!
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack
Hagoth wrote: ↑Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:50 am
I thought I might record a listener essay and submit it to IOT, just to see if I'm capable of that sort of thing.
I've read that acronym IOT (Internet of Things) before, but I thought it was a way to communicate with my toaster over the internet.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha
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