In Which I'm laying awake at night wondering

[Thoughtful]

If I'm screwing my kids up by letting them in on more accurate history.

Will they be safe with dating partners? (I know this is stupid because it's not like there are no Mormon rapists...)

Will their weddings be humiliating because our friends and family are TBM?

Will they be normal?

Will my faith crisis screw them up more than the church harmed me?

[Red Ryder]

Will they be normal?

Yes! Yes they will be.

In the United States alone, how many non Mormons are there? For sure you can find healthy examples of normal.

Don't let the Mormon driven inadequacies of parenting in the "world" get to you.

Your still a good parent. Keep doing what you are doing but with a lot less Mormonism and a whole lot more love!

Love wins!

[redjay]

three teens all raised LDS, all have stepped away. I did them more harm than good once they were teens. I aided their alienation by them being party to a weird religion in a European country. When they are under 12 church is great, when they are older it becomes a guilt trip if they do 'sin' or they are indoctrinated it does not prepare them for a full normal life - the church infantilises us.

Plus it's a massive betrayal to let them think one thing abut the universe and their place in it - and you know it just aint so.

I'm with the other red - love wins out.

As for their relationship, standing with TBM relatives - your relationship and their other parent's relationship comes first, always. They are your kids end of.

[slavereeno]

Will my faith crisis screw them up more than the church harmed me?

I wish you and my DW could have a conversation, these are her primary concerns right now and it would be so, so good for her to connect with someone. If nothing else, know that you are not alone in your concerns.

[Thoughtful]

Will my faith crisis screw them up more than the church harmed me?

I wish you and my DW could have a conversation, these are her primary concerns right now and it would be so, so good for her to connect with someone. If nothing else, know that you are not alone in your concerns.

If she's on here, she can DM me.

[Thoughtful]

Will they be normal?

Yes! Yes they will be.

In the United States alone, how many non Mormons are there? For sure you can find healthy examples of normal.

Don't let the Mormon driven inadequacies of parenting in the "world" get to you.

Your still a good parent. Keep doing what you are doing but with a lot less Mormonism and a whole lot more love!

Love wins!

I mean, am I stunting them, leaving them socially immature in the real world, but blacklisted as apostates in the LDS world? Man without a country type of thing...

[Hagoth]

Let's see... 99.9-something % of people aren't LDS. A significant number of LDS people are screwed up.

Yeah, I think they'll be ok.

[moksha]

Will they be normal?

There are two good questions here:

1. Will the kids be normal if they are not Mormons?
2. Will the kids be normal if they are Mormons?

Prediction - If these questions were asked of a random population sampling outside the Jell-O Belt, most likely the respondents would assign greater normalcy to the non-Mormon kids.

[Thoughtful]

Let's see... 99.9-something % of people aren't LDS. A significant number of LDS people are screwed up.

Yeah, I think they'll be ok.

Will they be normal?

There are two good questions here:

1. Will the kids be normal if they are not Mormons?
2. Will the kids be normal if they are Mormons?

Prediction - If these questions were asked of a random population sampling outside the Jell-O Belt, most likely the respondents would assign greater normalcy to the non-Mormon kids.

I don't worry that not being Mormon they won't be normal, but that by having them leave Mormonism they will be in a weird in between place, ostracized as heathens by LDS family and friends, but with social deficits from being so sheltered in the real world.

It's not so much can someone be normal as a nonmo, but can they be normal after all this?



Spouseman had a conversation with my teenage son last night and apologized for any shame over masturbation he may have received and reiterated that it's not something he has to confess or that is abnormal. So, one step toward normalcy?

[deacon blues]

Raising NOM kids, or non-LDS kids is going to be daunting, especially at first. If you live in Utah and/or were raised TBM, you are going from a clearly marked highway to a scenic byway. Take the time to get a good map, study the route and terrain, be loving forgiving, but don't apologize for the truth. Then remember to enjoy the view. You are taking "The Road Less Traveled."

[MerrieMiss]

I don't worry that not being Mormon they won't be normal, but that by having them leave Mormonism they will be in a weird in between place, ostracized as heathens by LDS family and friends, but with social deficits from being so sheltered in the real world.

It's not so much can someone be normal as a nonmo, but can they be normal after all this?

I think I understand what you mean by your faith crisis having caused problems for your children. I'm not so concerned with life outside of Mormonism, but I worry that what I've gone through has affected them in a negative way.

In my own circumstances, my children are younger than yours so my worries are different I think, it concerns me that my doubt coincided with my kids' births. In some ways I've been a distracted mother, worrying and studying and reading about religion constantly. I've been depressed. I've been distant from my husband. I wonder sometimes whether the kids would have been happier and better off with a mother who "knew" what she was doing and where she was going. I wonder if their early memories are going to be mixed up with mom pouring over Dialogue journals, Sunday headaches, the voices of John Larsen and John Dehlin among others echoing through the house. (I caught my preschooler humming the Mormon Expressions podcast intro while he was playing the other day - he's going to give me away!)

But then, maybe I don't give myself enough credit. I think I'm far more empathic than I would have been. More accepting. I worry less about perfection. I have more perspective. I worry less about molding them into good human beings and instead try to nurture them into the individual people they are becoming. And I really wasn't happy as a Mormon - I never really got it, I never really fit in. Sure, there are stresses that have arisen, particularly with relationships to extended family that my kids are beginning to see. There have been some benefits too.

The truth is that everybody, Mormon or not, controlling religion or not, has problems. Someone eloquently put on reddit: everyone has a wheelbarrow of s---, and my mine just happens to be full of Mormon s---.

(Am I allowed to write that word on here???)

[Thoughtful]

Raising NOM kids, or non-LDS kids is going to be daunting, especially at first. If you live in Utah and/or were raised TBM, you are going from a clearly marked highway to a scenic byway. Take the time to get a good map, study the route and terrain, be loving forgiving, but don't apologize for the truth. Then remember to enjoy the view. You are taking "The Road Less Traveled."

Thank you!

[Thoughtful]

I don't worry that not being Mormon they won't be normal, but that by having them leave Mormonism they will be in a weird in between place, ostracized as heathens by LDS family and friends, but with social deficits from being so sheltered in the real world.

It's not so much can someone be normal as a nonmo, but can they be normal after all this?

I think I understand what you mean by your faith crisis having caused problems for your children. I'm not so concerned with life outside of Mormonism, but I worry that what I've gone through has affected them in a negative way.

In my own circumstances, my children are younger than yours so my worries are different I think, it concerns me that my doubt coincided with my kids' births. In some ways I've been a distracted mother, worrying and studying and reading about religion constantly. I've been depressed. I've been distant from my husband. I wonder sometimes whether the kids would have been happier and better off with a mother who "knew" what she was doing and where she was going. I wonder if their early memories are going to be mixed up with mom pouring over Dialogue journals, Sunday headaches, the voices of John Larsen and John Dehlin among others echoing through the house. (I caught my preschooler humming the Mormon Expressions podcast intro while he was playing the other day - he's going to give me away!)

But then, maybe I don't give myself enough credit. I think I'm far more empathic than I would have been. More accepting. I worry less about perfection. I have more perspective. I worry less about molding them into good human beings and instead try to nurture them into the individual people they are becoming. And I really wasn't happy as a Mormon - I never really got it, I never really fit in. Sure, there are stresses that have arisen, particularly with relationships to extended family that my kids are beginning to see. There have been some benefits too.

The truth is that everybody, Mormon or not, controlling religion or not, has problems. Someone eloquently put on reddit: everyone has a wheelbarrow of s---, and my mine just happens to be full of Mormon s---.

(Am I allowed to write that word on here???)

I appreciate this perspective. I feel like, I was so perfectionist, I was hard on my kids thinking it was to their benefit. Seeing my son see me relax about things and just love and accept him -- his anxiety levels are visibly dropping.

I met with a parent and his child today at work. Child was cutting and this was the "tell dad ALL of what's going on" meeting. He had great communication skills, based on the words he was using, but his tone and body language of confronting and "knowing" was making me anxious. I know he just wants best for his daughter and has the life experience to know her worries are not going to pan out, but the way he said it was so much pressure on her. And I suddenly saw myself in this parent, how I was for the first 15 years of my son's life until my faith transition came to a head. (It was quieter before and didn't involve the kids as much). Anyway, I saw that side and I'm glad to not do that sort of over scrupulous parenting, be more accepting. I do wish I'd gone through this sooner though, and I wish I could undo what I've done. I worry it's turbulent out here though, especially with such a shift suddenly. There's no road map for it, and there's a lot of unknowns. I don't want them to not fit in anywhere, based on my sudden change of course.

[redjay]

this

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... attending/

[Not Buying It]

I get your concern - we were all raised to fear our children leaving the Church. We were told it was the worst thing that could happen to them. I heard one fellow say he’d rather see his children dead than leave the Church, which is a pretty good indication of how messed up this organization really is. I stopped believing a long, long time ago, and I know without a shadow of a doubt the Church cannot possibly be what it claims to be, but yet I still from time to time feel a pang of guilt and a stab of fear that in teaching my kids to disbelieve in the Church I am doing a great wrong.

When that happens, I remind myself that is just the brainwashing, and that logically I would be doing them a great disservice to raise them to believe in something that is so clearly not what it claims to be. I think about what I would have to let happen to them if I raised them to believe in the Church, and all the guilt evaporates immediately. And I admit to myself part of it is the fear of disappointing my parents that their grandchildren won’t believe what they want them to believe, and I recognize the insanity of chaining my children to a lifetime of devotion to a sham religion just to keep my parents happy.

So, yeah, I still have those moments from time to time, but I have learned to see them for what they are - it’s just the fear the Church put in me to keep me in line, and the unfair expectations of my parents. Both are indications I need to get my kids as far away from this messed up organization as I can.

[No Tof]

Amen to NBI s post.

What ever challenges your kids face in their lives will be better dealt with outside the Mormon box.

I see my own adult children, all BYU grads (sigh))doing so well in their lives completely separate from the church. Our grandchildren are open, loving and happy.

Time will show you just how much we injure our children when they grow up in such a conformist shaming environment that we all experienced and how refreshing life can be outside.

Put your worries and fears aside. Just love them.

[moksha]

What to teach your kids reminds me of the dilemma faced by the residents of the Golden City of Omelas. Can you embrace the enchanted and happy life your kids are accorded as residents of Omelas, knowing full well the hideously terrible cornerstone of Omelas existence? Should parents withhold this knowledge from the kids or should the children of Omelas be allowed to learn of this terrible truth and decide for themselves?



*You can read this story under recommended readings at the top of this Support forum.

[Thoughtful]

What to teach your kids reminds me of the dilemma faced by the residents of the Golden City of Omelas. Can you embrace the enchanted and happy life your kids are accorded as residents of Omelas, knowing full well the hideously terrible cornerstone of Omelas existence? Should parents withhold this knowledge from the kids or should the children of Omelas be allowed to learn of this terrible truth and decide for themselves?



*You can read this story under recommended readings at the top of this Support forum.

Going on a bit of a tangent, I think that it's so odd the compulsion we feel at times to preserve the faith of others, even when we would not choose to unknow what we now know. People have the right to self determination, as we say in my field. However, the Omelas story is a new one for me and reminds me very much of a discussion on Donald Trump and compartmentalization of our morality. It also makes me think of the scripture mastery, "must be opposition in all things" ... but why? Can we truly not enjoy ourselves unless someone is also suffering?

It definitely resonates though, that people leave Omelas and don't talk to anyone else, they just go out alone. Because everyone else knows in some level and is choosing it. Where's the argument there? Are those really the type of people you want to bring along, if they need to be convinced?

[alas]

What to teach your kids reminds me of the dilemma faced by the residents of the Golden City of Omelas. Can you embrace the enchanted and happy life your kids are accorded as residents of Omelas, knowing full well the hideously terrible cornerstone of Omelas existence? Should parents withhold this knowledge from the kids or should the children of Omelas be allowed to learn of this terrible truth and decide for themselves?



*You can read this story under recommended readings at the top of this Support forum.

Going on a bit of a tangent, I think that it's so odd the compulsion we feel at times to preserve the faith of others, even when we would not choose to unknow what we now know. People have the right to self determination, as we say in my field. However, the Omelas story is a new one for me and reminds me very much of a discussion on Donald Trump and compartmentalization of our morality. It also makes me think of the scripture mastery, "must be opposition in all things" ... but why? Can we truly not enjoy ourselves unless someone is also suffering?

It definitely resonates though, that people leave Omelas and don't talk to anyone else, they just go out alone. Because everyone else knows in some level and is choosing it. Where's the argument there? Are those really the type of people you want to bring along, if they need to be convinced?

This idea that "people have the right to self determination, as we say in my field" has been bothering me lately. But they cannot self determine if we withhold facts that we know from them out of respect for their faith. I did my graduate practicum (internship for those not in my field) at Catholic Family Services. So, out of respect for their religion, I just quietly passed as Catholic. The Father who hired me was the only one who knew I was Mormon and nobody figured out that I was not Catholic. I know enough of what Catholics believe to make a convincing Catholic and I did exactly what I would do in any agency, if a religion specific question came up, I would offer them "I think the (_____) church officially teaches ________, but you know that and yet you brought up the question, so obviously there is still some question, so what do you think?" I would never say what I believed or what I thought, but asked them what they thought and believed, or I would refer them to their priest, minister, or bishop. Because I was taught in school that no matter what they believed, I was supposed to respect that and help them work within their own belief system.

But then when I was the CLIENT at LDS FS, that method did not work well for me. I really needed a counselor who was brave enough to see that Mormonism was NOT working for me and acknowledge as much. I needed to be able to explore what I wanted to believe, not only what the church allowed me to believe. My counselor was willing to tell me that the agency I was working for was abusive, but not to tell me that my religion was abusive. Yet, he danced around it and danced around it. We could not solve my issues with the church without recognizing that the way the church shames its members to keep them needing the church to make them "good enough" was exactly why I was unable to get over all the shame I felt. He could say that the bishop who told me that I was accountable for the sexual abuse because I was over the age of accountability was wrong, but he couldn't say that the constant every Sunday "you are not good enough" shaming was also wrong. He was officially "respecting my beliefs" that Mormonism was good, because I told him that I didn't exactly believe "church is true," but thought Mormonism was good. So, we danced around "Mormonism is abusive" and couldn't quite go there.

So, are our professional ethics of "respect the beliefs of the client" really what is best for our clients and is our respecting the beliefs of friends and family really what is best for them. Religion teaches that it and it alone promotes good morality. And most Americans believe that religious belief makes people better people. But we NOMs should know that that is not true. So why are we still so respectful of the beliefs of friends and family? How can they self determine when all they ever hear is one side of the story?

I taught my kids to be critical thinkers about the ads they saw on TV and what their friends told them. But I did not tell them the ugly side of church history. Now I wonder.

[Thoughtful]

What to teach your kids reminds me of the dilemma faced by the residents of the Golden City of Omelas. Can you embrace the enchanted and happy life your kids are accorded as residents of Omelas, knowing full well the hideously terrible cornerstone of Omelas existence? Should parents withhold this knowledge from the kids or should the children of Omelas be allowed to learn of this terrible truth and decide for themselves?



*You can read this story under recommended readings at the top of this Support forum.

Going on a bit of a tangent, I think that it's so odd the compulsion we feel at times to preserve the faith of others, even when we would not choose to unknow what we now know. People have the right to self determination, as we say in my field. However, the Omelas story is a new one for me and reminds me very much of a discussion on Donald Trump and compartmentalization of our morality. It also makes me think of the scripture mastery, "must be opposition in all things" ... but why? Can we truly not enjoy ourselves unless someone is also suffering?

It definitely resonates though, that people leave Omelas and don't talk to anyone else, they just go out alone. Because everyone else knows in some level and is choosing it. Where's the argument there? Are those really the type of people you want to bring along, if they need to be convinced?

This idea that "people have the right to self determination, as we say in my field" has been bothering me lately. But they cannot self determine if we withhold facts that we know from them out of respect for their faith. I did my graduate practicum (internship for those not in my field) at Catholic Family Services. So, out of respect for their religion, I just quietly passed as Catholic. The Father who hired me was the only one who knew I was Mormon and nobody figured out that I was not Catholic. I know enough of what Catholics believe to make a convincing Catholic and I did exactly what I would do in any agency, if a religion specific question came up, I would offer them "I think the (_____) church officially teaches ________, but you know that and yet you brought up the question, so obviously there is still some question, so what do you think?" I would never say what I believed or what I thought, but asked them what they thought and believed, or I would refer them to their priest, minister, or bishop. Because I was taught in school that no matter what they believed, I was supposed to respect that and help them work within their own belief system.

But then when I was the CLIENT at LDS FS, that method did not work well for me. I really needed a counselor who was brave enough to see that Mormonism was NOT working for me and acknowledge as much. I needed to be able to explore what I wanted to believe, not only what the church allowed me to believe. My counselor was willing to tell me that the agency I was working for was abusive, but not to tell me that my religion was abusive. Yet, he danced around it and danced around it. We could not solve my issues with the church without recognizing that the way the church shames its members to keep them needing the church to make them "good enough" was exactly why I was unable to get over all the shame I felt. He could say that the bishop who told me that I was accountable for the sexual abuse because I was over the age of accountability was wrong, but he couldn't say that the constant every Sunday "you are not good enough" shaming was also wrong. He was officially "respecting my beliefs" that Mormonism was good, because I told him that I didn't exactly believe "church is true," but thought Mormonism was good. So, we danced around "Mormonism is abusive" and couldn't quite go there.

So, are our professional ethics of "respect the beliefs of the client" really what is best for our clients and is our respecting the beliefs of friends and family really what is best for them. Religion teaches that it and it alone promotes good morality. And most Americans believe that religious belief makes people better people. But we NOMs should know that that is not true. So why are we still so respectful of the beliefs of friends and family? How can they self determine when all they ever hear is one side of the story?

I taught my kids to be critical thinkers about the ads they saw on TV and what their friends told them. But I did not tell them the ugly side of church history. Now I wonder.

Yes, I agree. That's a great illustration of what I'm saying in the first paragraph--in order to determine your own fate, you have to have a real choice. We as LDS are given a script in which, no matter how you get there, you must come to one group of conclusions:

The church is true
JS was a prophet
Priesthood restored
Temples/ priesthood the only way to access the atonement/God.
Etc.

But in the Omelas story, the people *have* seen, and do know the reality, it's presented to them. They choose to go on with their lives benefiting from it. Those kind of people are the ones I'm not sure I want to bring along.

As far as professional and cultural awareness in counseling, it gets even more sticky. I was jumping out of my skin in SS today, during lesson 10. There are simply certain populations I'm not sure I can provide ethical services for. :/