Had "The Talk" with my son

[Linked]

My son is 6. He plays a dragon game where you breed new dragons, and that started him asking about breeding a year ago. I had managed to answer his questions without having the full birds and the bees talk up until this week. We had already covered the basic idea of sexual reproduction without discussing the mechanics of it, so I started there. I tried to make it clinical and matter of fact so it wouldn't become an awkward or taboo subject for him. He took it really well.

I left the room and my wife asked me how it went and I told her it went well. Then she asked if I made sure to tell him that it is not something we talk about. I was taken back by that response because that is the opposite of how I plan to handle it. I tried to recover and laughed a bit and said that no, I didn't tell him that, and went on my way.

I wanted to post about that here because it is cathartic for me, but I decided to try to be respectful to DW and keep it between us.

A couple days later (last night) I brought it up so we could discuss it, and told her that her comment had rubbed me the wrong way a little bit, and that I want our son to feel like he can talk about this stuff with us. Her body language got defensive, and she said that she agrees that she wants him to feel comfortable talking with us about it, but she doesn't want her six year old making sex jokes with his friends. That made me remember the many many many sex jokes my friends and I had made growing up, starting when I was six years old or so. I still like some jokes like that as an adult. And I figure that is normal and I don't want my son to feel bad about it, even though if I heard him making sex jokes I would not like it. I told her that I think we feel differently about sex jokes and she got extra defensive and said that I am right, she thinks that sex should be between two people and I don't, then left the room. We haven't spoken since then, and she left the house in tears a few minutes ago.

[alas]

There is more going on here than six year old kids making sex jokes. Somehow you have really hurt her feeling about something. Sex jokes is just the trigger. The thing about you not thinking that sex should just be between two people is key. She almost accused you of adultery.

But back to the sex jokes, Women do tend to feel differently about sex jokes because too many of the jokes have women as the butt of the joke. They are often demeaning to women.

[Reuben]

But back to the sex jokes, Women do tend to feel differently about sex jokes because too many of the jokes have women as the butt of the joke. They are often demeaning to women.

I think this is a key differentiator between "good" and "bad" sex talk generally, and even depictions (but not all agree with that last part especially). To make it more general, I would say the differentiating factor is really whether the talk or depiction demeans or dehumanizes a person or group of people, but let's be honest: women are almost always the targets. If my own demographic were almost exclusively the target of a certain kind of joke, you can bet I'd be more conservative in what I thought was in good taste in that area.

At any rate, I think alas has nailed it here. There's more going on. It could be something as simple as you no longer appearing to display a certain cultural marker that your wife feels is very important; e.g. she might feel that your willingness to talk openly about sex indicates less respect for it or for women. Or she might be feeling very insecure about your commitment to her and is taking your willingness to talk openly about sex as a sign that it's decreasing. Or she might be afraid of you going off the deep end and is extra vigilant about signs of that happening. Or she might not feel emotionally safe in general since your disaffection, and this is collateral emotional damage. Or something else entirely. She might not even know. Or she might know. Or she might not know that she doesn't know.

There's a certain kind of manliness the church teaches. The authoritarian and misogynist parts of that are crap (and thankfully slowly decreasing). Much of the rest is great, though: care, responsibility, respect, and commitment in particular. The totalist, all-or-nothing, us-vs-them bent of church teachings, as well as basic tribalism, make it easy for believers to think that the disaffected throw the baby out with the bathwater. I can tell that you haven't. You know that you haven't. Your wife probably knows, too, but does she know it deep down in her bones?

FWIW, I think your approach to talking about sex is the right one, and that you should stand your ground on it as much as possible without damaging your relationship with your wife. If you have to compromise for now, though, do it. Anything is better than shame-inducing total silence. Take your time, too, and work out a strategy together. It won't be easy, but it should get easier.

[Reuben]

I've talked this over with Mrs. Reuben. Here are a couple of things that came out of it.

Being able to tell dirty jokes is the wrong hill to die on.

She also thinks there's more going on, and suggests a lot of listening to understand and to help your wife figure it out if she hasn't already.

[alas]

I have been thinking about this too. And funny, but I asked DH what he thought. He shrugged.

Anyway, my thought is have another talk with your son about being respectful, talking about sex as if it is something special between a husband and wife that shows love and any sex outside of a loving relationship can be damaging emotionally or leave nasty consequences in its wake. Well, that isn't on an age appropriate level. But even say that his mommy wanted to add that it isn't something to joke about, like farts are. It should be private and special.

As far as what is wrong that your wife is feeling hurt, I'm lost. Which is why this kept me thinking. Anyway, I hope you have had a chance to talk to her by now.

[Kishkumen]

That's a tough pickle, Linked. Sorry to hear it.

If anything, I think Mrs Misbehaved is more open about things than I am. Our son turns 6 in a few months and he's already said a few things to express curiosity how things work. However, we haven't had the talk about the mechanics of things, he's got a grasp on the anatomical differences.

The biggest thing with him currently is Butthead jokes. Any time the words Butt, poop, etc. are used it's hilarious to him. We're trying to be rather flexible and tolerant, but sometimes you can only hear "Ba ba buttcheeks" so many times before you snap.

However, butthead jokes are a bit different than sex jokes. I agree, frequently sex jokes put females on the butt-end of things (pun intended). But I know he'll say sex jokes one way or another, and I'd rather know what's going instead of risky not knowing what is said at school/playground.

Keep on trucking, you'll get through this. Find a way to keep a respectful dialogue open at proper opportunities with Mrs Linked.

[Linked]

Thanks so much for all your comments and even asking spouses for their thoughts. We finally spoke when she was about to leave the house in tears for a second time Saturday. It was heated and sad and covered a range of topics. But it was good overall, we communicated and she expressed some of her concerns. We are pretty good again now.

There is more going on here than six year old kids making sex jokes. Somehow you have really hurt her feeling about something. Sex jokes is just the trigger. The thing about you not thinking that sex should just be between two people is key. She almost accused you of adultery.

You hit the nail on the head about there being more going on. She brought up everything. It seems like we only talk when she gets triggered and when she gets triggered the sky is falling about everything and there is no point in going on with our marriage. I am trying to figure out how to have more regular discussion about the important stuff and keeping it from triggering either of us, but so far I've failed. One thing I have no idea how to help with is helping her get past the past. There are things I did as an insensitive young husband that I have recognized and corrected, but when she is triggered she brings those back every time. She expresses frustration that I expect to be validated for the efforts I have made. She has complained that I didn't do enough for the kids when they were younger, and now I am more involved in playing with them and our relationships are awesome, and she said she feels like I am trying to win a competition against her for best parent (I probably do need to include her more, but it's been difficult because she doesn't really like the things I do with our sons - video games, hang out with my friend and his kids, etc). I don't know how to help her let go of the pain I've caused her and be happy with the good parts of the situation we are now in.

As for the adultery accusation, I think her comment was more about something I told my brother about our honeymoon right after we got married. I'm more open about stuff and she felt her privacy was beyond violated. I've tried to learn my lesson.