Don't say no

[Jeffret]

Ok, let me amend my response. No reason to jump to "lets retire the practice."

No one has actually said, "let's retire the practice."

"A lot of kids have really negative experiences with dances. Maybe it’s time to retire the practice."

As written above.

Emower, were you purposely trying to be disingenuous by snipping out where I said, "The most anyone has said on that one is 'maybe' or that there might be better ways, more productive, more appreciated by the kids, to teach the desired lessons"? Or where I earlier said, "At most, Not Buying It said, 'Maybe it’s time to retire the practice.'"?

You seem to be upset that someone has demanded that (some) practice (presumably romantic dances for 6th graders) be shut down, when the most anyone has said is "Maybe it's time to retire the practice."

I'd like to hear from others about the situation in their areas, but I suspect a number of elementary schools have already retired their romantic dances.

[Jeffret]

Emower, I'm struggling to understand your position, or the point you're trying to make. Maybe it would be best to drop the who-said-what and try a different angle.

Could you try clarifying for me what you're trying to get at?

Are you upset at Ms. Richard saying that her daughter should be able to say no?

Do you think that romantically-based 6th grade dances are essential for everyone?


Your initial point seemed to be, "I was an awkward teenager once. Dances taught me some things like how to deal with rejection. I don't think it messed me up." This sounds to me like a lot of the criticism Sam Young receives, "I was interviewed by bishops as a teen. They helped me out with a number of things. I don't think it messed me up." Combined with, "But lets dont cancel dances because some people have a hard time with it. Someone is going to have a hard time with everything." And, "But is the importance of the social awkwardness enough to shut down dances that are already in place? Also a no." These sound like the types of arguments against Sam's efforts. Are they meaningful arguments against Sam? Are they meaningful arguments for school dances?

[Jeffret]

Or maybe a different approach:

You seem to find elementary school dances meaningful and valuable.

I don't remember having dances in elementary school. I don't remember the junior high dances as being meaningful or valuable. Kind of ridiculous mostly. My kids haven't had school dances so I have no idea what the current standard or results are.

Maybe it would help if you shared your positive comments regarding elementary school dances. Your own experiences. Or what you've heard or observed from others.

Are there any things you think might could use improvement in these dances?

[Emower]

I'm not upset about anything. If I am feeling anything it is embarrassment over this idiotic conversation we are involved in. You seem to want my comments to mean more than they do. If it makes you feel better to think that this is about Sam young, go ahead. I am checking out of this.

[Hagoth]

We had a slightly different way of observing this concept at my middle school. Coach Johnson would grab you by the arm and drag you across the dance floor to the other side where the girls were lined up. There he would grab a random girl by the arm, drag both of you out onto the dance floor, slam you together and yell, "dance!" And we danced. And that is how I met my wife (just kidding).

[Jeffret]

I'm not upset about anything. If I am feeling anything it is embarrassment over this idiotic conversation we are involved in. You seem to want my comments to mean more than they do. If it makes you feel better to think that this is about Sam young, go ahead. I am checking out of this.

So basically it's just been a matter of pointlessly twisting people's words for you. And here I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt that you had something meaningful to say.

Sent from my SM-J327V using Tapatalk

[moksha]

Was this really put on by the school as a "romantic dance"? I assumed this was to teach kids how to dance. I remember in elementary school being taught the waltz, foxtrot, box step kind of stuff. No emphasis was put on learning the lambada - the forbidden dance, or in teaching the girls to accept a lifetime of male abuse. Have times changed that much?

I really don't want to project my own issues onto this dance, since that may throw the actual event out of perspective.

[slavereeno]

I am all for let them say no for whatever reason they want. I asked a girl in HS to a dance and she said yes but let the ward know she was compelled to say yes. I was not the bra-strap-snapping type, I was a nerd. It was not a fun experience for me. In hindsight, I would much rather she'd just said no and saved me the headache.

[Jeffret]

Was this really put on by the school as a "romantic dance"? I assumed this was to teach kids how to dance. I remember in elementary school being taught the waltz, foxtrot, box step kind of stuff.

Yes. Absolutely. Definitely.

We don't know exactly what the school was doing or what their intentions were. But, whatever they are doing definitely exists within a greater social construct.

What is the value in teaching them how to dance? I recognize there could be several that aren't romance related. In an age when schools cut non-core subjects, art, music, physical education, recess, though, somehow this dance remains essential and worth spending significant effort on for this school. People ask, What is the value in learning math? When will the student ever use it? Or, art. Will it profit them? While much of those questions are misguided, we can certainly ask that with regards to the foxtrot. How is knowing waltz going to benefit them? How will they use the box step in their life?

There's an easy answer: these dances are used in social situations, involving pairing up into couples, with romantic undertones, or generally overtones. Oh, a few people might use them in performances. Ever seen any movies with these dances? Are there romantic story-lines involved? We may not expect these 6th graders to pair up and get a hotel afterwards (though some of them might find a secluded location) but what they are doing is playing at being grown-up (at least sexually mature) and practicing social coupling activities.

If this weren't about romance, why the resistance to what some of us have suggested, line, group, circle, square, or Maypole? Why isn't the school already doing that type of dance? What makes the waltz more important for the kids to learn than the Chicken Dance, the Electric Slide, or Gangnam Style? Or folk dances from around the world to bring in cultural awareness?

But the school indicated pretty clearly that the dance is focused on romantic pairing. From the article:

Prior to the dance, which is voluntary, students are told to fill out a card by selecting five people they want to dance with. The administration says if there’s someone on the card you feel uncomfortable with, the student is encouraged to speak up.

That right there clearly sets the whole tone and context. The students are supposed to pick who they want to dance with. And if they want to deal with the social pressure, or contribute to marginalization, speak up about who they don't. The context is totally clear. They are supposed to pick someone of the opposite sex who they like. That's romantically based.

If it were really about learning the dances, that would be done in class with random pairings. There wouldn't be this build-up about who likes who and who gets the opportunity to pair up with who and who isn't liked.

Now, no one is saying that we shouldn't have these romantic dances, these pairing events for sixth-graders. We're not sure they're entirely necessary. We're suggesting their might be some better options. And we're definitely criticizing some of the practices.

Since this dance is romantically-based, both within the structure in which it's organized and the larger context in which such dances exist, it is well worth examining how the practices in this dance play into long-term social dynamics. And reinforcing to girls that they can't say no is a bad one. It's a core grooming technique.

No emphasis was put ... in teaching the girls to accept a lifetime of male abuse. Have times changed that much?

It's not that the dance has to put an emphasis on teaching that, because that teaching is all around. This practice merely reinforces it. Codifies it even. Boys are taught in a myriad different ways that when they ask a girl for something, she can't say no. They should get it because of their nature and because they want it. Girls are taught that they must demure and acquiesce to boys demands. Their concerns are irrelevant. They should ignore their creep-o-meter.

The whole Aziz Ansari story is exactly like this. He felt that he should insist and coerce and she should not say no. Whatever the level of his misdeed, it's clear he wasn't putting her interests and needs on a high priority. She felt limited in how she could say no. That wasn't caused by a 6th-grade dance that told them she couldn't say no but by thousands and thousands of cuts.

And unfortunately, no, times really haven't changed much. Woman are no longer legally the property of men, but they are still conditioned to submit to what men request.

[Jeffret]

If it's not about romance (sexual attraction, sexual interest), what do we suspect is the basis for which the students are choosing their desired partners? Are the boys choosing the girls based upon their prowess at solving that math equation? Well, some of them might, such as weirdos like me, but that's probably not all it's about.

If it's not about romance, no one would mind if a boy choose a boy as a dance partner, right? Or a girl choose a girl?

If it's not about romance, why is there even any suggestion at all that boys should be pairing with girls? Maybe things have changed, but my impression is that if you passed by an elementary school at recess, you would find boys hanging out with boys and girls with girls. If there's no romantic context, wouldn't we expect to boys to be with boys and girls to be with girls at the dance? Why would there be any concern that the two sexes aren't mingling?

Do we have the same expectations at recess? If a girl asks a boy to play dolls with her, is he required to submit? Do we have students submit lists of who they want to play with at recess? Or expect them to pair up sexually (as in one of each sex) for school work?

[Jeffret]

I'm scoutmaster for a troop. When we go on campouts we try to have two scouts per tent to follow the buddy system. It's better safety and comfort. If one needs to pee in the night, his buddy can walk with him through the woods to the restroom as needed. As we prepare for the campout, we have the boys split up into buddies. Lots of times they already have a buddy and it's a piece of cake. Sometimes a couple of them will be left that aren't really buddies but more acquaintances. Or sometimes nobody can decide. To help resolve some of the social issues there, I'll sometimes just suggest a pairing. Or the only pairing that is left, "Looks like that leaves Tom and Dan." But, I always ask, "Is that okay?" I never expect that they can't say no when asked.

Or even for buddy system for hikes or swimming or whatever activity, I ask, "Is that okay?" Or if we have an odd and we need three buddies. I check with them, "Is that going to work?"

I don't want buddies that aren't going to help and support each other, who aren't going to stick together, or who just don't feel comfortable with each other.

But, in a romantic situation, such as this dance, we think it's fine that kids, or particularly girls, shouldn't feel comfortable in declining. When practicing social interactions for pairing, coupling, and mating.

[1smartdodog]

What’s so noble about forcing a kid to be with someone they dislike. Getting rejected is all part of growing up. This constant nonsense of trying to alleviate any socially hard times for kids is more damaging than helpful

[alas]

What’s so noble about forcing a kid to be with someone they dislike. Getting rejected is all part of growing up. This constant nonsense of trying to alleviate any socially hard times for kids is more damaging than helpful

I agree with you that kids need to be taught to accept rejection and do so graciously. Rather than saying that the kids can't say no, teach them to say no kindly, and teach the ones who gets told no that it is not the end of the world.

Is getting told no any more damaging than being the last to be chosen when teams form up by the captain picking who is on his team? Kids face rejection all the time, so really have they changed the method for picking teams? And do we know if the girls are also asking the boys to dance where the boys can't say no?

It isn't that this one dance is going to damage anyone irreparably. It is that girls get told a lot that they should never say no to a boy. It is death by 1,000 paper cuts. It isn't the problem of this one dance. It is the pattern that is being taught that some of us are objecting to.

[Jeffret]

Update!

A school catches flak for telling girls they can't say no if a boy asks them to dance

The Weber School District got the message, too. In a statement sent to CNN Monday night, community relations specialist Lane Findlay said the instructions for the dance have been changed.

According to the statement, attendance at the dance has typically been "voluntary but encouraged." Students are asked to fill out a dance card with names of classmates they'd like to dance with. Half the dancer selections are the girl's choice and the other half are the boy's choice, and students can't dance with the same person more than once.

But now students will be free to say no.

"In the best interest of our students, we are re-examining the procedures surrounding these dances and will make any necessary changes to promote a positive environment where all students feel included and empowered in their choices," the statement said.

"We have advised our schools to eliminate any sort of language in the instructions surrounding these dances that would suggest a student must dance with another student."

[moksha]

The Weber School District responded to the backlash this week, saying the rules have been changed.

“We certainly understand the concern and would never want to promote a mindset where students don’t feel like they have the option to say no,” the district said in a press release obtained by The Daily Caller News Foundation. “We have advised our schools to eliminate any sort of language in the instructions surrounding these dances that would suggest a student must dance with another student.

“Although we still want to strongly encourage inclusion, kindness, and mutual respect, we feel this change will be of greater benefit to all students who choose to attend these dances,” the district said.

It might be good to also include the instruction that they should feel free to opt out of the dance entirely. Additionally, for those attending perhaps, there can be the instruction that filling any and all spots on the dance card are purely optional - that way boys can be preemptive in their rejection. No reason boys should be forced into being the sole wallflowers.

[Jeffret]

And do we know if the girls are also asking the boys to dance where the boys can't say no?

It isn't that this one dance is going to damage anyone irreparably. It is that girls get told a lot that they should never say no to a boy. It is death by 1,000 paper cuts. It isn't the problem of this one dance. It is the pattern that is being taught that some of us are objecting to.

I asked that question in my first post on this topic. The original report was unclear. The updated report that I just posted, suggests that the school expected it to be split evenly between girl's choice and boy's choice. That's a little bit better.

After raising that question initially, though, I decided it's really totally irrelevant. For several reasons. It's better that they tried to do it evenly, but it's still so bad that the whole practice needs to be retired. And now has been.

1) People really shouldn't be taught that they can't say no. And kids are people too. They should teach them to be nice, but they should have a say and should absolutely be able to say no. When I thought about how it goes in other parts of life, including in the scouting scenario I described above, I realized it's just wrong. And worse in any sort of a dating context.

2) Whether or not they intended to handle it equally for boys and girls, it's not. Boys learn in thousands of different ways that it's okay to say no and okay to ask for what they want. Girls receive those thousand cuts deeply impressing on them that it's not. Even if the application were equal, the result really isn't. It's just one more thing.

[Jeffret]

One other thing the new report mentions is that it's a Valentine's Day dance, thereby increasing the romance aspect.

I don't know how schools handle Valentine's cards and things these days. My recollection in the past was that in elementary school students were expected to bring cutesy Valentine's for all of the classmates. But, this dance involves boys and girls pairing up, pushing it into a more grown-up style event.

The "Don't Say No" demand is wrong in any environment, but it's worse in these dating / faux-dating situations because of all of the context around them.