Brushes with "the other side"?

[LaMachina]

This one is pretty good:

Paramedic Frank apologized, without wondering how John could have known that the CPR had been continued for another 10 minutes. But John clarified anyway: I was there . . . you see . . . I saw the whole thing . . . and I remember Jack saying that he wanted to “call it” and you saying that your probationer needed extra work on his CPR anyway, so you may as well keep going. Frank was naturally shocked to hear that his feeling at the time that the victim had been out of body had been correct and that the victim had “heard” the senior paramedic talking was also correct. Frank was fascinated. He asked John whether the latter remembered anything else. Well, I remember that the other paramedic suggested that there would be just as much likelihood of resuscitating the manequien [sic] back at the station as resuscitating me . . . and it was about then that I realised that this was serious and that if I wanted to live . . . I was going to have to get back in that body . . . and the next thing I know . . . I’m in hospital a few days later. Frank was so impressed with this statement from a man who had been in asystole that he made sure to recount the case to the other paramedics who had been at the scene that day— and to share the account on his website.

Rivas, Titus; Dirven,Anny; Smit,Rudolf. The Self Does Not Die: Verified Paranormal Phenomena from Near-Death Experiences (p. 79). International Association for Near-Death Studies. Kindle Edition.

Lots of the NDEs are talking about needing to get back into their "body". They are outside it, can see it and know what it is. This disengaging of the physical from consciousness is part of the crux of the matter.

Honestly, I'm not terribly impressed by this sort of thing. How come we can induce an 'out of body' experience in perfectly healthy individuals?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... periences/

How come a stroke victim, who is clearly still alive and conscious in some way, will have their perception altered to such a degree that they no longer feel like they're in their body? See TED talk shared earlier.

The smoking gun for consciousness outside the brain would be definitive evidence that an individual saw or perhaps even heard something they couldn't possibly hear or see within the vicinity of their body. So far I've only seen anecdotal stories. Look up the AWARE study, it would be pretty convincing. But so far it seems to jave turned up bupkis.

[Rob4Hope]

This one is pretty good:

Paramedic Frank apologized, without wondering how John could have known that the CPR had been continued for another 10 minutes. But John clarified anyway: I was there . . . you see . . . I saw the whole thing . . . and I remember Jack saying that he wanted to “call it” and you saying that your probationer needed extra work on his CPR anyway, so you may as well keep going. Frank was naturally shocked to hear that his feeling at the time that the victim had been out of body had been correct and that the victim had “heard” the senior paramedic talking was also correct. Frank was fascinated. He asked John whether the latter remembered anything else. Well, I remember that the other paramedic suggested that there would be just as much likelihood of resuscitating the manequien [sic] back at the station as resuscitating me . . . and it was about then that I realised that this was serious and that if I wanted to live . . . I was going to have to get back in that body . . . and the next thing I know . . . I’m in hospital a few days later. Frank was so impressed with this statement from a man who had been in asystole that he made sure to recount the case to the other paramedics who had been at the scene that day— and to share the account on his website.

Rivas, Titus; Dirven,Anny; Smit,Rudolf. The Self Does Not Die: Verified Paranormal Phenomena from Near-Death Experiences (p. 79). International Association for Near-Death Studies. Kindle Edition.

Lots of the NDEs are talking about needing to get back into their "body". They are outside it, can see it and know what it is. This disengaging of the physical from consciousness is part of the crux of the matter.

Honestly, I'm not terribly impressed by this sort of thing. How come we can induce an 'out of body' experience in perfectly healthy individuals?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... periences/

How come a stroke victim, who is clearly still alive and conscious in some way, will have their perception altered to such a degree that they no longer feel like they're in their body? See TED talk shared earlier.

The smoking gun for consciousness outside the brain would be definitive evidence that an individual saw or perhaps even heard something they couldn't possibly hear or see within the vicinity of their body. So far I've only seen anecdotal stories. Look up the AWARE study, it would be pretty convincing. But so far it seems to jave turned up bupkis.

Maybe there is nothing to it. Consciousness doesn't exist outside the body (perhaps)--and the lack of evidence is evidence I suppose. But there are tens of thousands of consistent NDE experiences, and I am not saying OOBE is always part of that, or even verifiable.

Whether you believe consciousness can exist outside the body or not doesn't discount SOMETHING is happening in NDE that science can't explain. I suppose that is why this topic is so interesting to me. And if you speak with someone who was clinically dead (and I've spoken to at least 3 of these people), you can't convince them it was a hallucination. Something happened during that "dead time", and science has yet to give an explanation that holds water--as far as they are concerned.

That is why I find this so interesting. Its a puzzle....

LaMachina...tell me more about this "smoking gun" idea. The book I'm reading has SEVERAL verifiable accounts of people hearing or seeing things that were outside of their local vicinity. Can you tell me more of what you mean?

[LaMachina]

LaMachina...tell me more about this "smoking gun" idea. The book I'm reading has SEVERAL verifiable accounts of people hearing or seeing things that were outside of their local vicinity. Can you tell me more of what you mean?

What are we counting as 'verifiable' accounts? If it could be convincingly demonstrated that someone were able to see or hear something that would be impossible to see or hear from the typical POV of their body than that would be a smoking gun indicating that we could quite possibly perceive the world beyond our physical sensory organs.

The AWARE study put simply, the scientists project or display images in places impossible to see from the operating table but that would be possible to see from a position floating above one's body. It's a remarkably simple setup and if it were to provide positive data it would be a fascinating find. So far, nothing. IANDS has reported on it:

https://iands.org/news/news/front-page- ... ished.html

I'd love it if we found good evidence that life can exist beyond death. Clearly something is happening with NDEs and OOBEs, just like something is happening in those experiments that induce OOBEs. The anecdotal stories I've seen do not convincingly indicate the ability to see something from outside the normal perspective of the body. The ones I've seen that do claim that sort of experience I've found to be too vague or not easily substantiated. Considering the large number of people who experience these things I'd assume that there would be a large number that more clearly establish an ability to 'remote view' as it were.

While I consider myself reasonably well-read on the subject you certainly have a more expansive reading of these sorts of things. Perhaps you have something more substantial that I'm not aware of. But in the meantime, I will continue to monitor AWARE to see if they discover something...although honestly, I'm not holding my breath.

[Rob4Hope]

LaMachina...tell me more about this "smoking gun" idea. The book I'm reading has SEVERAL verifiable accounts of people hearing or seeing things that were outside of their local vicinity. Can you tell me more of what you mean?

What are we counting as 'verifiable' accounts? If it could be convincingly demonstrated that someone were able to see or hear something that would be impossible to see or hear from the typical POV of their body than that would be a smoking gun indicating that we could quite possibly perceive the world beyond our physical sensory organs.

The AWARE study put simply, the scientists project or display images in places impossible to see from the operating table but that would be possible to see from a position floating above one's body. It's a remarkably simple setup and if it were to provide positive data it would be a fascinating find. So far, nothing. IANDS has reported on it:

https://iands.org/news/news/front-page- ... ished.html

I'd love it if we found good evidence that life can exist beyond death. Clearly something is happening with NDEs and OOBEs, just like something is happening in those experiments that induce OOBEs. The anecdotal stories I've seen do not convincingly indicate the ability to see something from outside the normal perspective of the body. The ones I've seen that do claim that sort of experience I've found to be too vague or not easily substantiated. Considering the large number of people who experience these things I'd assume that there would be a large number that more clearly establish an ability to 'remote view' as it were.

While I consider myself reasonably well-read on the subject you certainly have a more expansive reading of these sorts of things. Perhaps you have something more substantial that I'm not aware of. But in the meantime, I will continue to monitor AWARE to see if they discover something...although honestly, I'm not holding my breath.

Thanks for responding. I read a little about this AWARE thing on the IANDS site as well.

This book I'm reading now has several accounts that do what you are claiming--they are 3rd party verified accounts, or so the claim is.

I'm so bogged down in other things my enjoyment reading time is almost nonexistent. I'm about 25% through the book. If I encounter some accounts that look pretty good, let me share them as well as the reference. Maybe there is some of this information--and to be fair, maybe not. Either way, I confess I hope there is something more to these NDEs than just "stories".

I do know that those I've talked to that have had NDEs--you can't convince them something more than a hallucination happened. Their experiences, to them, were the most real thing they have ever had happen.

[EternityIsNow]

Perhaps we could refer to this phenomena as physiological encounters of the third kind.

I like that.

I do know that those I've talked to that have had NDEs--you can't convince them something more than a hallucination happened. Their experiences, to them, were the most real thing they have ever had happen.

I could be convinced it was a hallucination. But that would require evidence that hallucinations can produce so much insight and change in a person's life. And evidence that hallucinations can be the most real thing we have ever experienced. And evidence that hallucinations can produce veridical proofs, such as revealing knowledge that was not available to the person prior to the hallucination experience. And I don't see that evidence, but I'm not closed off to the possibility. But you do have to take positions in life, establish a philosophy that allows you to move forward in life, particularly after a faith transition where certainty is lost. So for now, I am working through how to create a life philosophy based on evidence, that includes experiences like NDEs, as part of the evidence of how our reality works.

[Rob4Hope]

Perhaps we could refer to this phenomena as physiological encounters of the third kind.

I like that.

I do know that those I've talked to that have had NDEs--you can't convince them something more than a hallucination happened. Their experiences, to them, were the most real thing they have ever had happen.

I could be convinced it was a hallucination. But that would require evidence that hallucinations can produce so much insight and change in a person's life. And evidence that hallucinations can be the most real thing we have ever experienced. And evidence that hallucinations can produce veridical proofs, such as revealing knowledge that was not available to the person prior to the hallucination experience. And I don't see that evidence, but I'm not closed off to the possibility. But you do have to take positions in life, establish a philosophy that allows you to move forward in life, particularly after a faith transition where certainty is lost. So for now, I am working through how to create a life philosophy based on evidence, that includes experiences like NDEs, as part of the evidence of how our reality works.

I haven't posted on this thread for a while. I'm swallowed up with other concerns and my reading time is gone. I hope to get back into it soon.

[EternityIsNow]

I haven't posted on this thread for a while. I'm swallowed up with other concerns and my reading time is gone. I hope to get back into it soon.

Hope you do. No hurry. NDE threads never really die...

[ap1054]

I’ve never shared my quasi-NDE experience other than with a few individuals, but here it goes. Think of it what you may. I’ll try and be as straightforward and genuine as I can, and avoid the flowery words that Mormons love to use.

A little about me: born & raised in the church, full-time mission, temple marriage, etc.; still attending LDS church but not really participating (other than being the organist which is the best calling BTW) because of all the issues I have with everything.

When I was 12 years old I was involved in a really bad bike accident. No helmet, riding on my new mountain bike that I was riding all over the place, and heading with my family to go clean our local LDS building (of all places). I loved riding to the church building because it resides off a highway that has a gradual decline (maybe 2-3% grade) so I could turn and burn on the corner coming into the church parking lot and get that excitement of leaning into a corner hard and fast.

I was ahead of my family, and was making really good time getting there, and took that corner into the church parking lot much faster than I probably ever had (because I didn’t make it this time). From what I remember, my wheels both hit the sidewalk curb maybe at the same time and I got catapulted off my bike and went head first into the sidewalk. I’m a pretty big cyclist to this day and I think I was going probably 18-22mph. Pretty big impact for a young kid with no helmet. From what I can remember, my head hit first followed very closely (likely within milliseconds) by my left shoulder and then entire left side of my body. It’s probably a miracle that I survived the impact and had no serious cranial damage. To this day anyone who knows me well will say I’m hard-headed.

I remember being in total pain and couldn’t see much. I managed to get up off the sidewalk (where there was a blood stain for years afterward) and limped over and collapsed onto the grass. I remember being in so much pain that it was overwhelming. I just moaned for someone to help me. And then at this point I experienced my “brush” with the other side…

Probably 4 months prior to this crash, my grandpa passed away from parkinson’s disease around the age of 85. I had never gotten to know him because he was pretty incapacitated by it later in his life and he was a solemn, quiet farmer who never had much to say. Add to that we lived 14 hours from their house so we only visited once, maybe twice a year, and I was way too preoccupied with cousins to spend much time with grandparents. But I was always a little nervous around him. He made me uncomfortable and I always was worried I was in his way or inconveniencing him (probably was because I was running around the small house with my cousins). He never snapped at us or anything but would watch us with a tired face. I never had good reason to be afraid of him - probably just a natural thing being a kid and all. Anyways, when he finally passed away I don’t remember being sad or anything - just understood (I think) it was part of life and it was clearly his time to go.

…Back to the crash scene. While I was lying on the grass and moaning for someone to help me, everything started to fade to white and the pain went away. I don’t remember being able to see any part of my physical surroundings, everything was glowingly white. And then I saw my grandpa. He simply just “appeared.” And he just looked at me and smiled, and communicated with me, the best way I can explain, telepathically. The clear simple communication I received was - “I love you so much, and everything is going to be okay.” And that’s all I remember for that exact moment when I had that brush with the other side, if you’d like to call it that. I don’t know how long it lasted or anything else until I came back to myself.

I regained consciousness lying on my back in my bed at home, with my dad and Bishop with their hands on my head wrapping up a blessing. The sharp pain came back intensely and everything was as it was once again. The weird thing is that I never lost consciousness according to my family. I was definitely in trouble though and according to my mom (a nurse) in a state of extreme shock. I didn’t really recognize my siblings and I didn’t know the car they were putting me into (a new family car) when they picked me off the grass to take me home. I never flatlined or anything close to it, but I still had my quasi-NDE experience, and it had and continues to have a significant impact on my life.

The experience is weird to me because (a) I had no out-of-body experience, but I still had a brush with the other side, and (b) why did I see my grandpa, given that he honestly wasn’t of much significance in my life? No matter how I think of it, the reality remains - I had a very tangible (I think) experience that deeply affected me. When I think back and remember it all, it still brings me peace and I have a renewed desire to be more loving to other people. And on that point, the love I experienced was other-worldly!! I’ve studied NDE stuff and that seems to be a common experience that others have.

Another interesting thing was my regaining consciousness during the blessing. I’ve always been uncomfortable with “priesthood authority” and “one true church” claims in Mormonism, even when I was a TBM. At this point in my life I really don’t think we (counting myself with Mormons) have it at all. But I don’t know what that was about. I do believe in the power of faith and that it is an accessible power source available for any human being (not exclusive to Mormons, Christians, etc.). Did I regain consciousness because of faith or because it was singly God’s intervention, independent of the faith of my dad and Bishop?? I have no idea and I don’t think I’ll ever know.

Lastly, my simple experience with the other side always made me uneasy with Alma 40 and D&C 76, even as a teenager. My reading of other NDE experiences also cause me to lean towards LDS theology being wrong or misdirected as to what is beyond the mortal veil.

But whatever you’d like to think about my experience, it is what has allowed me to maintain a very firm faith that there is a God who loves us, that we exist beyond death, and God is all about love and we’re just supposed to try and love others the same way while we’re here. I’ve gone down the rabbit hole of Mormon messiness and as a NOM, I believe nothing beyond the simple principles taught by Jesus - love, tolerance, forgiveness, mercy, peace, service, etc. Everything else in Mormonism IMO has been added on (either deliberately for power or through genuine well-intentioned pondering or misinterpreted inspiration by leaders) and is completely unnecessary, and may even distract from the simple foundations of Jesus’ teachings.

I think without this “brush with the other side” I may have lost my faith in God altogether at this point given all the crap that is Mormon history. But I’m grateful to God that I had this experience. It really was a life-impacting event that opened up my mind to what is and changed the way I interact with people, although I’m in no way a perfect person.

[Sojourner]

I haven't been on here for a very long time. Not sure what prompted me to come back. I have been out of the church for about 5 years and my wife has recently joined me in my journey "outside". Coming up 3 years ago next month I had a NDE. I was involved in an ATV crash in front of my own house. I don't remember enough of what led to the accident to know what went wrong but I have some idea. I was thrown in the air and landed on the top of the curb and thank the flying spaghetti monster I was wearing a helmet. I crushed one vertebrae and tore ligaments in the spine which should have left me in a wheelchair but dumb luck won out. I broke 7 ribs in 20 places and collapsed a lung. I got up with the help of a neighbor and my wife drove me to the hospital where I walked in. Things went quickly downhill, after a CT scan and a lot of x-rays they decided I needed a chest tube. I guess I was going downhill fast because they decided I needed to be transferred to a level one trauma center. On the ambulance ride I guess I coded but I don't really remember anything from that but while the chest tube was being put in I coded again. This time I remember that I was in a different type or sense of consciousness. I never had the sense of being outside my body but I do recall a peace and a feeling that everything made sense. I know why I fought to come back, it is too personal to share here but let's leave it at she is 16 now and needed her dad. I came to with a very angry looking anesthesiologist yelling at me that I was not to F'ing die on his watch. I wish I had something more profound to say about the experience but what I can say is that after leaving the church I was left with a sense of near panic about death and wanting to make sure I lived as much as I could. I can say now that I don't fear death, that may change as I get closer to an age appropriate for a natural death, but I fear the excruciating pain that goes along with most modes of death. As a side note, I have never been as pissed off as I would get when people would tell me that they know why I was able to recover, God got all the credit. I recovered because I pushed myself every day to recover through physical therapy, occupational therapy and 5 weeks in the hospital and rehab. I still can't smell 2 stroke oil and race fuel without getting a little nauseated but I am here to tell the tale.

[Red Ryder]

I haven't been on here for a very long time. Not sure what prompted me to come back. I have been out of the church for about 5 years and my wife has recently joined me in my journey "outside". Coming up 3 years ago next month I had a NDE. I was involved in an ATV crash in front of my own house. I don't remember enough of what led to the accident to know what went wrong but I have some idea. I was thrown in the air and landed on the top of the curb and thank the flying spaghetti monster I was wearing a helmet. I crushed one vertebrae and tore ligaments in the spine which should have left me in a wheelchair but dumb luck won out. I broke 7 ribs in 20 places and collapsed a lung. I got up with the help of a neighbor and my wife drove me to the hospital where I walked in. Things went quickly downhill, after a CT scan and a lot of x-rays they decided I needed a chest tube. I guess I was going downhill fast because they decided I needed to be transferred to a level one trauma center. On the ambulance ride I guess I coded but I don't really remember anything from that but while the chest tube was being put in I coded again. This time I remember that I was in a different type or sense of consciousness. I never had the sense of being outside my body but I do recall a peace and a feeling that everything made sense. I know why I fought to come back, it is too personal to share here but let's leave it at she is 16 now and needed her dad. I came to with a very angry looking anesthesiologist yelling at me that I was not to F'ing die on his watch. I wish I had something more profound to say about the experience but what I can say is that after leaving the church I was left with a sense of near panic about death and wanting to make sure I lived as much as I could. I can say now that I don't fear death, that may change as I get closer to an age appropriate for a natural death, but I fear the excruciating pain that goes along with most modes of death. As a side note, I have never been as pissed off as I would get when people would tell me that they know why I was able to recover, God got all the credit. I recovered because I pushed myself every day to recover through physical therapy, occupational therapy and 5 weeks in the hospital and rehab. I still can't smell 2 stroke oil and race fuel without getting a little nauseated but I am here to tell the tale.

Welcome back! I remember hearing about your accident on the old board. We would love to hear how your wife eventually made it out of the church too.

[Rob4Hope]

I’ve never shared my quasi-NDE experience other than with a few individuals, but here it goes. Think of it what you may. I’ll try and be as straightforward and genuine as I can, and avoid the flowery words that Mormons love to use.

A little about me: born & raised in the church, full-time mission, temple marriage, etc.; still attending LDS church but not really participating (other than being the organist which is the best calling BTW) because of all the issues I have with everything.

When I was 12 years old I was involved in a really bad bike accident. No helmet, riding on my new mountain bike that I was riding all over the place, and heading with my family to go clean our local LDS building (of all places). I loved riding to the church building because it resides off a highway that has a gradual decline (maybe 2-3% grade) so I could turn and burn on the corner coming into the church parking lot and get that excitement of leaning into a corner hard and fast.

I was ahead of my family, and was making really good time getting there, and took that corner into the church parking lot much faster than I probably ever had (because I didn’t make it this time). From what I remember, my wheels both hit the sidewalk curb maybe at the same time and I got catapulted off my bike and went head first into the sidewalk. I’m a pretty big cyclist to this day and I think I was going probably 18-22mph. Pretty big impact for a young kid with no helmet. From what I can remember, my head hit first followed very closely (likely within milliseconds) by my left shoulder and then entire left side of my body. It’s probably a miracle that I survived the impact and had no serious cranial damage. To this day anyone who knows me well will say I’m hard-headed.

I remember being in total pain and couldn’t see much. I managed to get up off the sidewalk (where there was a blood stain for years afterward) and limped over and collapsed onto the grass. I remember being in so much pain that it was overwhelming. I just moaned for someone to help me. And then at this point I experienced my “brush” with the other side…

Probably 4 months prior to this crash, my grandpa passed away from parkinson’s disease around the age of 85. I had never gotten to know him because he was pretty incapacitated by it later in his life and he was a solemn, quiet farmer who never had much to say. Add to that we lived 14 hours from their house so we only visited once, maybe twice a year, and I was way too preoccupied with cousins to spend much time with grandparents. But I was always a little nervous around him. He made me uncomfortable and I always was worried I was in his way or inconveniencing him (probably was because I was running around the small house with my cousins). He never snapped at us or anything but would watch us with a tired face. I never had good reason to be afraid of him - probably just a natural thing being a kid and all. Anyways, when he finally passed away I don’t remember being sad or anything - just understood (I think) it was part of life and it was clearly his time to go.

…Back to the crash scene. While I was lying on the grass and moaning for someone to help me, everything started to fade to white and the pain went away. I don’t remember being able to see any part of my physical surroundings, everything was glowingly white. And then I saw my grandpa. He simply just “appeared.” And he just looked at me and smiled, and communicated with me, the best way I can explain, telepathically. The clear simple communication I received was - “I love you so much, and everything is going to be okay.” And that’s all I remember for that exact moment when I had that brush with the other side, if you’d like to call it that. I don’t know how long it lasted or anything else until I came back to myself.

I regained consciousness lying on my back in my bed at home, with my dad and Bishop with their hands on my head wrapping up a blessing. The sharp pain came back intensely and everything was as it was once again. The weird thing is that I never lost consciousness according to my family. I was definitely in trouble though and according to my mom (a nurse) in a state of extreme shock. I didn’t really recognize my siblings and I didn’t know the car they were putting me into (a new family car) when they picked me off the grass to take me home. I never flatlined or anything close to it, but I still had my quasi-NDE experience, and it had and continues to have a significant impact on my life.

The experience is weird to me because (a) I had no out-of-body experience, but I still had a brush with the other side, and (b) why did I see my grandpa, given that he honestly wasn’t of much significance in my life? No matter how I think of it, the reality remains - I had a very tangible (I think) experience that deeply affected me. When I think back and remember it all, it still brings me peace and I have a renewed desire to be more loving to other people. And on that point, the love I experienced was other-worldly!! I’ve studied NDE stuff and that seems to be a common experience that others have.

Another interesting thing was my regaining consciousness during the blessing. I’ve always been uncomfortable with “priesthood authority” and “one true church” claims in Mormonism, even when I was a TBM. At this point in my life I really don’t think we (counting myself with Mormons) have it at all. But I don’t know what that was about. I do believe in the power of faith and that it is an accessible power source available for any human being (not exclusive to Mormons, Christians, etc.). Did I regain consciousness because of faith or because it was singly God’s intervention, independent of the faith of my dad and Bishop?? I have no idea and I don’t think I’ll ever know.

Lastly, my simple experience with the other side always made me uneasy with Alma 40 and D&C 76, even as a teenager. My reading of other NDE experiences also cause me to lean towards LDS theology being wrong or misdirected as to what is beyond the mortal veil.

But whatever you’d like to think about my experience, it is what has allowed me to maintain a very firm faith that there is a God who loves us, that we exist beyond death, and God is all about love and we’re just supposed to try and love others the same way while we’re here. I’ve gone down the rabbit hole of Mormon messiness and as a NOM, I believe nothing beyond the simple principles taught by Jesus - love, tolerance, forgiveness, mercy, peace, service, etc. Everything else in Mormonism IMO has been added on (either deliberately for power or through genuine well-intentioned pondering or misinterpreted inspiration by leaders) and is completely unnecessary, and may even distract from the simple foundations of Jesus’ teachings.

I think without this “brush with the other side” I may have lost my faith in God altogether at this point given all the crap that is Mormon history. But I’m grateful to God that I had this experience. It really was a life-impacting event that opened up my mind to what is and changed the way I interact with people, although I’m in no way a perfect person.

This is a beautiful post. THANK YOU for sharing this.

From your experience, if I were to ask you if its possible you were hallucinating, what would you say?

I'm not being flippant with my question, because I personally lean STRONGLY to our consciousness existing outside our physical body. I am also seeing how science seems to be supporting that more and more. So, my question is looking at another hallmark of NDE (and I think that is pretty much what you had). Those who have NDEs usually say it was hyper-real....no hallucinating about it.

Thoughts?

[deacon blues]

It's great to hear from Sojourner, and I do enjoy NDE's. I'm skeptical of many, but I also think that some ring true. That's why I enjoy them, I guess. Some people use them to prove the Church is true, but I think they just are what they are, experiences that people have. Most make people feel that they are loved by God, which I think is a good thing. I've never had a NDE, but I often feel loved by God as well.

[Rob4Hope]

I hope NDE and OOBE are more than just a brain rattle. I hope there is a benevolent God where love, light and hope exist and are real out there.

I've been a caregiver to an old family member, and he is very close to death now. Tonight is no exception. It all makes me realize how fragile life can be, and ultimately that it will end for all of us someday.

Tonight I'm a little more aware of mortality as I've seen suffering happen not too many hours ago.

[Rob4Hope]

I haven't been on here for a very long time. Not sure what prompted me to come back. I have been out of the church for about 5 years and my wife has recently joined me in my journey "outside". Coming up 3 years ago next month I had a NDE. I was involved in an ATV crash in front of my own house. I don't remember enough of what led to the accident to know what went wrong but I have some idea. I was thrown in the air and landed on the top of the curb and thank the flying spaghetti monster I was wearing a helmet. I crushed one vertebrae and tore ligaments in the spine which should have left me in a wheelchair but dumb luck won out. I broke 7 ribs in 20 places and collapsed a lung. I got up with the help of a neighbor and my wife drove me to the hospital where I walked in. Things went quickly downhill, after a CT scan and a lot of x-rays they decided I needed a chest tube. I guess I was going downhill fast because they decided I needed to be transferred to a level one trauma center. On the ambulance ride I guess I coded but I don't really remember anything from that but while the chest tube was being put in I coded again. This time I remember that I was in a different type or sense of consciousness. I never had the sense of being outside my body but I do recall a peace and a feeling that everything made sense. I know why I fought to come back, it is too personal to share here but let's leave it at she is 16 now and needed her dad. I came to with a very angry looking anesthesiologist yelling at me that I was not to F'ing die on his watch. I wish I had something more profound to say about the experience but what I can say is that after leaving the church I was left with a sense of near panic about death and wanting to make sure I lived as much as I could. I can say now that I don't fear death, that may change as I get closer to an age appropriate for a natural death, but I fear the excruciating pain that goes along with most modes of death. As a side note, I have never been as pissed off as I would get when people would tell me that they know why I was able to recover, God got all the credit. I recovered because I pushed myself every day to recover through physical therapy, occupational therapy and 5 weeks in the hospital and rehab. I still can't smell 2 stroke oil and race fuel without getting a little nauseated but I am here to tell the tale.

Its very interesting to me that those who have NDEs almost always report that they came back because they needed to accomplish something else, or they needed to learn something. You were the former with your daughter--she needed you.

One of the profound things MANY NDE folks also experience is a total loss of the fear of death. I can understand from an observational perspective the fear many have as they approach death. I've been a caregiver for a very old man who is terrified of death, even though he has been a LDS believer most of his LONG adult life. I've seen him wrestle with the fear, even tremble. It isn't a fun thing to see...and I have enough empathy I have to be careful when those moments happen; they affect me as well when that fear rolls off him.

I find great comfort in NDE experiences because the vast majority of them consistently talk of love, peace and tranquility being what awaits. AND, they ALL Talk of something "awaiting!"....not a pipe dream or a hallucination, but something so real it is often called the most real experience they have ever had.

Thank you for this post. Its nice to see this thread still having some input.

[deacon blues]

I hope NDE and OOBE are more than just a brain rattle. I hope there is a benevolent God where love, light and hope exist and are real out there.

I've been a caregiver to an old family member, and he is very close to death now. Tonight is no exception. It all makes me realize how fragile life can be, and ultimately that it will end for all of us someday.

Tonight I'm a little more aware of mortality as I've seen suffering happen not too many hours ago.

Life IS fragile, and yet it is tenacious, as it moves from one generation to the next. I hope your relative is free from pain. I'm reminded of the old 'Blood, Sweat, and Tears' song: "And when I die and when I'm gone, there'll be one child born to carry on, to carry on."

[EternityIsNow]

One of the profound things MANY NDE folks also experience is a total loss of the fear of death. I can understand from an observational perspective the fear many have as they approach death. I've been a caregiver for a very old man who is terrified of death, even though he has been a LDS believer most of his LONG adult life. I've seen him wrestle with the fear, even tremble. It isn't a fun thing to see...and I have enough empathy I have to be careful when those moments happen; they affect me as well when that fear rolls off him.

I went through this when my mother passed away, I was her caregiver most of the last months. And she was all-in TBM LDS, right up until she realized she just had a few weeks to live (terminal illness, we knew pretty much the day she would die). She had been in upper circles in the church, her husband (my step-dad) had worked with apostles and been an MP, and she was a great-grand-daughter of an apostle herself. And still, she was not really looking forward to the Mormon heaven. I think this is the sad underbelly of all the afterlife beliefs in the church, because the church creates so much perpetual guilt to keep the members attached, that very few will die believing they are worthy of what is to come. They are expecting a life judgment, based on TR type questions or something like that. And yes, the church teaches grace through atonement, but really, the subconscious mind just knows the guilt part, and that really can come through in the end stage of life and make that a miserable experience.

I tried to help, told my mother details about my NDE that I rarely share, and about other NDEs more profound than mine. Told her there really is no judgment day, just a life review to see what you can learn from the life just completed, and there are no LDS-priesthood controlled kingdoms, nothing like that, no eternal marriages, we can see and be with loved ones again, as much as we want, but not in a Mormon type of family, we are different creatures after this life and do not continue living as humans or even ex-humans. We become what we truly are again, pieces of the universe's own consciousness, particles of the source energy, with freedom to choose what to do next, whether to incarnate again, spend time thinking, explore some other areas of the higher universe layers, whatever. She listened and did understood and finally admitted that as a young girl the New Testament made sense to her, and Mormonism had added a lot of extras to that understanding that did not always make sense, and now near death she just wanted the simple NT version of reality again, to believe in a Jesus who loved her unconditionally. And I think she was relieved there was a possibility she would not be an eternal polygamist wife in heaven (she was sealed as a second wife to a widower). She did seem to deal better with the pain and surreal nature of the death process after that, in fact she said she started looking forward to leaving her life behind, and I think she finally reached a content state, with her life. I think the NDE discussions really helped, even if she did take them as only a possibility, being they conflicted with her entrenched LDS programming. But somehow, deep inside, I think she knew the NDE story was the more likely reality.

I hope your relative can find some peace getting through his final days. I think it is really sad that a church that makes so many truth claims is so opposed to actually finding and accepting the ongoing knowledge, both spiritual and scientific, that is being revealed today, such as the greater NDE phenomenon, just because those ideas don't come from the COB. And sad that so many church members have to suffer unnecessarily under imagined guilt, just so the church can have more income. But this is a very old psychological game, the church is just taking advantage of the situation.

[Rob4Hope]

I think this is the sad underbelly of all the afterlife beliefs in the church, because the church creates so much perpetual guilt to keep the members attached, that very few will die believing they are worthy of what is to come. They are expecting a life judgment, based on TR type questions or something like that. And yes, the church teaches grace through atonement, but really, the subconscious mind just knows the guilt part, and that really can come through in the end stage of life and make that a miserable experience.

I don't think the LDS church has ever reconcilled the idea of GRACE affectively, and I was a TBM for at least 45 years. There are STILL references to SWK "Miracle of Forgiveness". That book is destructive. Why?....because no matter how hard you try, I don't know anyone who can repent and stop all sins going forward. But, according to that book, unless you do that, the "former sins return". Its bunk. It teaches that we are saved by grace from past mistakes, as long as we finally get to a point where we never sin again. But if we could do that, we wouldn't need continuing grace.

Like I said, I've NEVER been able to even understand the LDS version of this. It all depends on who happens to be in vogue at the moment.

We become what we truly are again, pieces of the universe's own consciousness, particles of the source energy, with freedom to choose what to do next, whether to incarnate again, spend time thinking, explore some other areas of the higher universe layers, whatever. She listened and did understood and finally admitted that as a young girl the New Testament made sense to her, and Mormonism had added a lot of extras to that understanding that did not always make sense, and now near death she just wanted the simple NT version of reality again, to believe in a Jesus who loved her unconditionally. And I think she was relieved there was a possibility she would not be an eternal polygamist wife in heaven (she was sealed as a second wife to a widower). She did seem to deal better with the pain and surreal nature of the death process after that, in fact she said she started looking forward to leaving her life behind, and I think she finally reached a content state, with her life. I think the NDE discussions really helped, even if she did take them as only a possibility, being they conflicted with her entrenched LDS programming. But somehow, deep inside, I think she knew the NDE story was the more likely reality.

With my loved one, we are getting to the end. He is going into hospice tomorrow. In fact, had they not intervened with the current issues, he would have passed away last night. So, when I say I've seen these things recently...I'm not joking.

I'm OK. Out of my family, I am the one that probably has some of the greatest peace. But, I am exhausted to the bone. And showing physical signs of stress and physical decay over it. When he dies (and that is not far away), I will be taking a LONG break from everything I can escape and just work to recover. It is gunna take some time.

Unless you care-give (speaking from my prior and now post experience), it is difficult to understand the physical, emotioanl, and even spiritual drain.

[EternityIsNow]

With my loved one, we are getting to the end. He is going into hospice tomorrow. In fact, had they not intervened with the current issues, he would have passed away last night. So, when I say I've seen these things recently...I'm not joking.

I'm OK. Out of my family, I am the one that probably has some of the greatest peace. But, I am exhausted to the bone. And showing physical signs of stress and physical decay over it. When he dies (and that is not far away), I will be taking a LONG break from everything I can escape and just work to recover. It is gunna take some time.

Unless you care-give (speaking from my prior and now post experience), it is difficult to understand the physical, emotioanl, and even spiritual drain.

That's good hospice will take over, that should give you some relief. I totally relate to the drain. Yes, until you are a caregiver this is all theory. Time will heal, but patience helps, as healing from this level of strain is a lengthy process. It was for me anyway, recovery for me took more than a few months... I think it is essential to take care of yourself and your immediate family in this situation, and not get carried away with the drama and grieving, because eventually life moves forward again, and there is no value in losing health over something that is just part of life. I know I stressed way too much about what I went through as caregiver, and recovering took too long. But I guess we live and learn.

[ap1054]

From your experience, if I were to ask you if its possible you were hallucinating, what would you say?

I'm not being flippant with my question, because I personally lean STRONGLY to our consciousness existing outside our physical body. I am also seeing how science seems to be supporting that more and more. So, my question is looking at another hallmark of NDE (and I think that is pretty much what you had). Those who have NDEs usually say it was hyper-real....no hallucinating about it.

Thoughts?

Hey Rob4Hope! RE: your question about my quasi-NDE. I've thought a lot about this, and I don't think it was a hallucination. For one, it was extremely impactful and I was in a spiritual daze (not sure what else to call it) for probably a week and a half after the accident - a very powerful calm and peace is best I can describe it. Sure that could've been from the extreme concussion I got, but I've had other concussions since then and there wasn't the same after-effect.

And second, as I emphasized in my original post, I wasn't particularly close to my grandpa and I was nervous around him. So if it was hallucination, why would I see him and be met with overwhelming love from his presence and communication? From a Freudian view is it possible? I'm sure yes is the answer to that question. But given my experience and what I've recounted, and even when I think back and remember it and the effect it has on me nearly 20 years later, I don't think it was.

And just read your post about your caregiving and proximity to losing a loved one. I hope it ends up being a peaceful passing and you both get your rest! And sorry to hear of this impending loss. I wish the best for you at this time.

[Rob4Hope]

I got close to the breaking point today. Yep. A family member is in hospice care, and he is drugged up and just lays there. He looks like a corpse to me now. They don't inject him with meds, they trickle it down his throat--and they are doing a crappy job of it because half of it ends up in his lungs. Then they have to suck his lungs out because he has unconscious panic as the result of being unable to breath, and he panics and shakes his arms because to him, he probably feels like he is drowning.

The people in the center don't seem all that concerned, but it sure bugs the hell out of me! I've mentioned it to other family members who are working with it, and they are trying to get authorized for a smaller tube they can get down into his lungs and suck out the junk. Its also part of the final edema as well, because he is struggling with chronic heart failure.

I had to leave. I couldn't take any more. Its too much for me at this point--I'm gunna break down and freak.

We think in about <= 3 days he will pass. Perhaps tonight.

I'm having as close a brush with the other side as I ever had right now. I don't want to be calloused, but GET ON WITH IT ALREADY DAMNIT!!!!

The closest moment I had personally was with my dog--having him put down. And that was VERY difficult: the trust and bond remained until the end, and it bugged me that I couldn't communicate in a way that was clear that this was the merciful thing for that animal at the time. May sound stupid, but during part of my faith crisis and during my divorce, that damn dog was the only "family member" who was always there, and I loved that animal.

Now I've got all this time I've spent as one of 2 primary care-givers over at least 8 months--some of which were difficult months as things went downhill quickly. I've had to exercise judgment, patience, a LOT of TOLERANCE,...and now I just hurt inside.

OUCH!!!

GAWD I HURT INSIDE RIGHT NOW....