Honest with my Son

[Linked]

I think I need to have a plan to be honest with my son before he gets baptized. I would appreciate any thoughtful feedback positive or negative.

Why:
- I want my son to know who his father is
- I want to get this in before his indoctrination makes it a wedge
- I don't want my son as an adult to look back in frustration that I lied to him and led him down a path I myself wasn't walking

Problems and Responses:
P- At DW's request the in-laws don't know and kids can't, and shouldn't be expected to, keep a secret like this
R- I have given DW several years to come to grips with this and it is not fair to me to be forced to live a lie to my kids indefinitely so my wife can be more comfortable

P- DW wishes my disaffection would just disappear and not spread to the children
R- It shows no sign of disappearing and I have a right to teach my children as well

Plan:
Wait until he is ~7 and half and when it comes up mention that I think the teachings at church are kind of like Santa, but that many people think it is real and both views are ok. The timing is so that he will be far enough before the baptism stuff that it is just how it is by the time that happens, also to avoid ruining vacation and holiday time for DW (around September/October), he will be old enough to think about this stuff but young enough to not be fully indoctrinated. I will bring up this plan with DW if we ever talk about his baptism.

[crossmyheart]

I have been pretty open with my kids. I talk about how "Daddy believes in the church and Mommy, not so much". They see it as normal. However, my children are still primary age. My real concern is when they get to YW/YM age- when the real shaming begins and they are old enough to understand when leaders make insinuations.

I have been more open with my oldest child because she is female. I have pointed out situations where women are not treated as equal and have told her that is one of the reasons I don't like to attend. She is starting to get it.

Ask lots of questions- (use Socratic method) to teach critical thinking skills and I am sure your son will see the world a little more nuanced than the TBM black and white point of view. (So far) it is working for me.

[alas]

I agree with you that your wife has had time to adjust to your new beliefs. It should be clear by now that you are not going through a stage or just in a mood of some kind and you are going to recover and regain your faith. I also agree that you should not be expected to lie to your children about who you are just to keep her in some kind of illusion (delusion) that you really do believe deep down inside and will recover your former love of the church.

My parents were both nonbelievers, but they were too afraid of the social repercussions of coming out that they never told anyone. I don't think they even talked to each other, but simply held their disbelief deep inside. So, they raised us as if they believed it was true. So, yes, I have some anger about their chicken shit approach of forcing us to go to church even when they were both inactive, and never admitting that they did not believe. But on the other hand, we here at NOM know how hard it is to come out to parents, and there are good reasons that 70-30 years ago it was probably worse. And then I knew my grandparents, so I kind of don't blame them.

That being said, before you have a talk with your son, have a heart to heart with your wife to explain that loss of faith in the church is like loss of belief in Santa. You simply cannot go back to belief. The assumption that people can go back to believing is based on the belief that it really is true. So, since she believes, that is her assumption and somehow you have to destroy the assumption without destroying her belief. That is a nasty tightrope to walk.

I don't have any advice on this tightrope because my reason for disaffecting is not of the Santa belief kind, based in facts like no way can someone visit all the billions of people around the world. My disaffection is based on the idea that the church is simply harmful to some people. My husband sees this and agrees, that for some personality types the church can be destructive. He also sees that our lesbian daughter is better off out of the church. He has experienced that the church hurts certain people, even though he still thinks it is true. So, when I suggest I might go back to church, he says no way. He is not only not under an illusion that I might regain my testimony, he wants me to stay away from church.

But with your son, my experience is it works best in mixed faith relationships to keep it respectful of the other's beliefs, and I am not sure that the Santa analogy does that. Kids are proud of being in on the Santa secret, and think the kids who still believe are silly little kids. So, I don't know??? Is belief in Santa the best analogy? It might imply that his mother is a silly child for believing in the church. Think about that one.

I personally would keep it in the area of "this is my opinion, and your mother's opinion is different." One opinion is not better or more righteous, just different. You can even use the idea that there are many religions and that is because people are each different, and that is OK.

As for keeping the lack of belief secret, how long do you intend to keep it secret from the ward and other relatives? I agree it is not fair to ask a child to keep a secret. Something else to think about.

If you do go with the Santa analogy, then there is a way to explain not announcing to the world about nonbelief. You could explain how kids who know should not spoil things for those who still believe. It just isn't nice. And no believing child ever said, "gee thanks for telling me that all this fun Christmas stuff is a big lie." No, they are usually unhappy to have the magic spoiled and often angry at the child who told them, if they even believe what the nonbeliever said.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

[Red Ryder]

This is a tough one.

I haven't officially told my kids anything but they know I'm not a full tithe payer, don't have a TR, and don't walk around in long underwear like they sometimes see their mother do.

So I'm not sure I have any advice other than what Crossmyheart and Alas already said. Teach your kids that it's ok to be different and to have different beliefs. Teach your kids how to think critically and to question everything.

I think my kids will fall out of the church given there isn't really anything there to benefit them.

If I had to do it all over again I would probably just tell everyone I know that I don't believe and let the chips fall wherever they be. Then move forward with life and not worry about pleasing everyone who has fairy tale religious delusions.

In the end, the person who suffers the most from walking the tight rope is you.

[Stig]

I tried living in hiding in my own home for six years. My wife knew from the beginning, but my kids didn't. I'm now getting a divorce...if that tells you anything.

[Linked]

Thank you for all the great responses!

But with your son, my experience is it works best in mixed faith relationships to keep it respectful of the other's beliefs, and I am not sure that the Santa analogy does that. Kids are proud of being in on the Santa secret, and think the kids who still believe are silly little kids. So, I don't know??? Is belief in Santa the best analogy? It might imply that his mother is a silly child for believing in the church. Think about that one.

I personally would keep it in the area of "this is my opinion, and your mother's opinion is different." One opinion is not better or more righteous, just different. You can even use the idea that there are many religions and that is because people are each different, and that is OK.

Thank you for your thoughts on this, I really appreciate it. I agree, the Santa analogy isn't great for respecting others beliefs. I liked it because it is something on his level; he tells me that he believes in Santa even if I don't. I think your suggestion about pointing out the many belief systems out there is a great one and I will likely follow it. Maybe go over the different belief systems throughout the world and how they are all different but beliefs aren't right or wrong. I don't know how I will get through that without highlighting that some beliefs can be harmful, even if we don't categorize them as right or wrong. I suppose that would be okay to say so long as I stay far away from TBM beliefs.

As for keeping the lack of belief secret, how long do you intend to keep it secret from the ward and other relatives? I agree it is not fair to ask a child to keep a secret. Something else to think about.

I would have been out and open about it a year or two ago if not for DW. I keep quiet to keep her happy. She is an introvert and becoming a pariah would cause her great pain. So this situation pits my relationship with my son against my wife's pain. It sucks.

If you do go with the Santa analogy, then there is a way to explain not announcing to the world about nonbelief. You could explain how kids who know should not spoil things for those who still believe. It just isn't nice. And no believing child ever said, "gee thanks for telling me that all this fun Christmas stuff is a big lie." No, they are usually unhappy to have the magic spoiled and often angry at the child who told them, if they even believe what the nonbeliever said.

That's a good point, it keeps me from looking like a lying coward, which I don't believe I am. My son likes to disagree with me, so he would probably tell me I'm the one that's wrong, and I would be fine with that. I doubt he would follow me into disbelief for a while, though he and I are so similar I find it hard to believe he could stay believing too far into adulthood.

I remember my friend telling me about Santa when I was 5, I was just glad to learn the truth. That's how I feel about church stuff too.

If I had to do it all over again I would probably just tell everyone I know that I don't believe and let the chips fall wherever they be. Then move forward with life and not worry about pleasing everyone who has fairy tale religious delusions.

In the end, the person who suffers the most from walking the tight rope is you.

A redo on losing faith would be awesome. I would have told my DW the moment I didn't feel it was true anymore.

You are right, I am suffering from this tightrope. I would prefer to be appropriately open with all, but I hide for DW. She is the one who suffers most from me leaving the tight rope.

I tried living in hiding in my own home for six years. My wife knew fro the beginning, but my kids didn't. I'm now getting a divorce...if that tells you anything.

I wouldn't be too surprised if we have similar stories when it is all said and done. I am sorry things didn't work out. I hope the freedom to be yourself is awesome, I always imagine it that way.

[Kishkumen]

Digital fist bump, Bro.

Fortunately, you have logic, reason and sanity on your side. You're not tasked with presenting and teaching something. The onus of accepting belief is on others. That being said, it's much easier to convince a child than an adult, especially in a tight community.

Have the conversation with your wife. Maybe don't expect her to tolerate you preaching from the atheist bible every other week for FHM, but take it incrementally. You can say a lot by saying nothing at all. Don't talk about things you don't believe in with him, talk about other stuff. Of course, my advice is usually incorrect, so it's worth what you paid for.

You got this, you can do it! You're a great father and husband, keep on truckin!

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Ugh, I have this same problem coming in a year or so, followed by 2 more to deal with. I wish there was an easy answer without blowing up the family relationships or shaming yourself for bowing out.

[Raylan Givens]

That is a hard spot. I think the whole baptism thing is what pushed me out all the way. It also got DW thinking about finding a church we can all feel good about.

Kids are too smart. Eventually they figure it out. When they do, it can be painful. DW found out her dad was an atheist when she was 18 and moving out. That is when he decided he was free to leave. It really threw her for a loop, and in some ways caused her to retrench even deeper.

[JustHangingOn@57]

I agree with you that your wife has had time to adjust to your new beliefs. It should be clear by now that you are not going through a stage or just in a mood of some kind and you are going to recover and regain your faith. I also agree that you should not be expected to lie to your children about who you are just to keep her in some kind of illusion (delusion) that you really do believe deep down inside and will recover your former love of the church.

My parents were both nonbelievers, but they were too afraid of the social repercussions of coming out that they never told anyone. I don't think they even talked to each other, but simply held their disbelief deep inside. So, they raised us as if they believed it was true. So, yes, I have some anger about their chicken shit approach of forcing us to go to church even when they were both inactive, and never admitting that they did not believe. But on the other hand, we here at NOM know how hard it is to come out to parents, and there are good reasons that 70-30 years ago it was probably worse. And then I knew my grandparents, so I kind of don't blame them.

That being said, before you have a talk with your son, have a heart to heart with your wife to explain that loss of faith in the church is like loss of belief in Santa. You simply cannot go back to belief. The assumption that people can go back to believing is based on the belief that it really is true. So, since she believes, that is her assumption and somehow you have to destroy the assumption without destroying her belief. That is a nasty tightrope to walk.

I don't have any advice on this tightrope because my reason for disaffecting is not of the Santa belief kind, based in facts like no way can someone visit all the billions of people around the world. My disaffection is based on the idea that the church is simply harmful to some people. My husband sees this and agrees, that for some personality types the church can be destructive. He also sees that our lesbian daughter is better off out of the church. He has experienced that the church hurts certain people, even though he still thinks it is true. So, when I suggest I might go back to church, he says no way. He is not only not under an illusion that I might regain my testimony, he wants me to stay away from church.

But with your son, my experience is it works best in mixed faith relationships to keep it respectful of the other's beliefs, and I am not sure that the Santa analogy does that. Kids are proud of being in on the Santa secret, and think the kids who still believe are silly little kids. So, I don't know??? Is belief in Santa the best analogy? It might imply that his mother is a silly child for believing in the church. Think about that one.

I personally would keep it in the area of "this is my opinion, and your mother's opinion is different." One opinion is not better or more righteous, just different. You can even use the idea that there are many religions and that is because people are each different, and that is OK.

As for keeping the lack of belief secret, how long do you intend to keep it secret from the ward and other relatives? I agree it is not fair to ask a child to keep a secret. Something else to think about.

If you do go with the Santa analogy, then there is a way to explain not announcing to the world about nonbelief. You could explain how kids who know should not spoil things for those who still believe. It just isn't nice. And no believing child ever said, "gee thanks for telling me that all this fun Christmas stuff is a big lie." No, they are usually unhappy to have the magic spoiled and often angry at the child who told them, if they even believe what the nonbeliever said.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

I tried the Santa analogy on my wife once because in my mind it was a perfect example of believing in something that is demonstrably not real. She was very offended. So I would be careful with that one. I guess it all depends on how open minded your spouse is. Through trial and error I've learned what my wife will discuss and what she will not discuss.

[Emower]

This all kind of sucks don't it? Good advice here that i will take to heart. I am in much the same boat. Oldest is 6 and a half, and very much a pleaser. He will do anything if he thinks it will make someone happy. I am letting him know slowly what I think about things. But I let it come up organically. Sometimes I ask about what he learned in primary and that gives me a chance.

[MerrieMiss]

It looks like there are a few of us on here who are going to see our oldest child baptized in the next year or two. It makes me physically ill to think about it for too long.

I agree with most others that the Santa analogy may work for you, but isn't particularly healthy or well-received by others. There was an interesting reddit parenting thread about god recently. A few things I found interesting:

Definitely avoid using language that conveys someone's belief as 'silly' or 'stupid' (unless they are actually saying something stupid like "the earth is only 10000 years old") That is teaching disrespect. You wouldn't want a person of faith to disrespect your viewpoint, so please try to be neutral towards people who think differently than you do.

I did similar with my kid, well didn't use terms like fake and silly but did say that God doesn't exist, and now my kid (nearly 7) is quite contemptuous of people that believe - when I read some poems at Christmas that were vaguely about baby Jesus and whatnot she said "Urgh, why do some people still believe in that?!" so now I need to work on getting her to be more considerate and respectful of other people's beliefs.

My mum mocked Christians a lot when I was a kid. I felt so embarrassed to sing the hymns we learned at school (Uk schools make kids sing hymns) but I just liked singing. Anyway I became a Christian in my 20s which she reckons is rebellion (I think it’s more than that obviously) but I think the feelings of shame I felt as a kid for stuff that brought me joy were an unfair burden to put on a kid.

In the end, I think all kids are different. Some kids will think a lot about church and god and religion and others won't. My husband, even as a child, gave it very little thought. I gave it a lot. When I was somewhere between the ages 7-9 I remember asking my dad a lot of questions about horses in the americas, dinosaur bones, and pointing out that some stories just didn't make any sense. I remember wondering if the warm feelings I felt when baptized were the spirit, or just the warm water. Your child may very well ask these questions naturally without much interference from you or direct instruction. They are at the age where they are separating fantasy from reality. I'd say let them separate it themselves. If they are naturally inquisitive, they'll sort it out for themselves, particularly if you give them good resources, like books, natural history museum, etc.

My plan with my kids is taking them to see other churches. It shows the differences and builds respect and healthy dialogue (at least, that the hope!) and as I point out to my husband, I'm just following in Joseph Smith's footsteps - how can our kid know which church to join when he's never been to or seen another church? Just following the prophet!