Blaming the Culture

[slavereeno]

My TBM-ish friend, BIL and to some extent DW and now Greg Trimble?

The new thing is to blame everything I don't like about the church on its "Culture." As in, "The church is true, the gospel is true, the BOM is true, blah blah blah... The only reason you are having struggles is our culture in the church has gone awry. The brethren are really trying to fix it, but the people are just so bad with this culture."

I call bullsh**. I think the culture is essential to the church, I think the brethren support, love and generously feed the culture. I think they are the biggest part of it, and if its bad, and you believe they are "divinely inspired" what does that say about the Mormon rendition of God? This culture argument is starting to really get under my skin.

[blazerb]

You are right. It's crap. We've had GC talks encouraging people to adopt the church culture. The leaders have changed church culture significantly in the past few years. We've given up the missionary open houses and road shows, for example. The leaders discourage lessons that go outside the correlated (and often misleading) stories. If the leaders wanted a different culture, they would help create it just like they created the current one.

Also, the distinction between the gospel and culture is almost nonexistent in a high-demand religion like Mormonism. The church encompasses almost every aspect of our lives.

[Kishkumen]

This is a big trigger for me. I could write pages about this subject and how it has affected me. However, to be brief, the culture affected so much of my worldview that I've suffered a great deal trying to unwind it.

I now have a challenge trying to detangle what are my own thoughts and behaviors compared to what I absorbed in that culture. Things I'm working to improve are: (including but not limited to) Misogyny, Racism, Superiority, Victim Blaming, Emotional Seclusion, Secrecy, Judging, Responsibility Shifting.

I struggle to understand which of my shortcomings are my own and which were introduced by, or at least exacerbated by, my environment. It's not easy. One thing I've learned is that it doesn't matter whether it's my own trait or cultural influence, I need to fix it. I spent a lot of time blaming the culture for my actions and thoughts. But at some point, I needed to recognize no else is ultimately responsible for me.

Once I know better, I need to do better.

[oliver_denom]

This isn't really any different than apologetics which narrow the scope of what counts as authoritative to only canonized scripture. Point to any given element of the religion that's undesirable, and you just redraw your circle so that the offending bit isn't included within your definition of the gospel.

This is exactly what Ronald Poelman was attempting to do in his 1984 conference talk where he drew a distinction between the gospel and the church. They were not, according to Poelman the same thing. The former was a perfect revelation from god and the latter the attempts of men to implement it. This interpretation was utterly rejected. https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/elder- ... us-speech/

It can be useful to identify culture as the real problem, because it allows members to retain their faith while simultaneously making necessary change. Where they'll eventually run into problems is where cultural problems are being actively promoted by the church. This is the current case with gay marriage, and it's also the case with all of the "unwritten order of things". It's one thing to blithely refer to culture as the problem, and another to actually attempt to fix the problem. I think anyone who decides to "correct" the culture will quickly find that the church does not in fact recognize these distinctions. They didn't recognize them for Elder Poelman and they didn't recognize them for Ordain Women. What did Poelman and Ordain Women actually DO that was contrary to the gospel? All they did was butt heads with the culture which holds itself to be the absolute ruler and arbiter of the gospel to such an extent that there's no practical difference.

[nibbler]

What is the culture, a cult of personalty where the Q15 and any visiting GA or AA are kings.

The leaders have more power than anyone for setting the culture.

[BriansThoughtMirror]

I think this idea has been around for a while. I had a mission comp around 15-ish years ago who solidly held this point of view, and some others who sort of held it.

I agree with you- the culture is the result of the teachings, doctrines, systems, and expectations created by the church. I think they are starting to see how toxic some of it is and address these problems. I've heard talks against perfectionism, exclusivity, and judgementalism. What they can't admit is that the church itself created and amplified those problems.

[MerrieMiss]

“It’s the culture, not the church” is the paradigm I used for as long as I can remember. I may have gotten it from my father, I’m not sure. My understanding is that he really liked the original 1984 talk by Poelman and was confused when it was printed in the Ensign – it was not the talk he remembered. Of course it took years for him to know what the truth behind the talk was.

I used "It's the culture" to justify much of the cognitive dissonance I experienced. For me, it wasn’t until I was in presidencies, going to Ward Council, etc., that I began to see systemic problems that came from the top, many of those relating to be being a woman and being treated in the exact way the doctrine instructs women to be treated. It took a few years for me to have enough charity/compassion for my fellow Mormons to see them as fundamentally good and the church not. Until that point, both the church and the people were bad. It was a difficult change in thinking to make.

My husband uses this argument – anything he doesn’t like he labels as culture and not the true church. I’m hoping his current calling opens his eyes a little.

[Red Ryder]

What's wrong with adding carrots to Jello?

Modest really is hottest!

What's wrong with wrapping activities up with a spiritual thought?

Food storage really is common sense.

Big families, bankruptcy, and bottles at 45 are pretty common among Catholics too!

Masturbation interviews? Everyone should be doing them! Why does that rub you so wrong?

I'm not judging you! You're just not living up to my standards.

Women don't need to be important let alone visible! They work in the home and that's two full time jobs!

[Brent]

I believe Jesus was right. By their fruits you'll know. The church's fruits are both delightful and dreadful.

[LaMachina]

I believe Jesus was right. By their fruits you'll know. The church's fruits are both delightful and dreadful.

Yep. It's funny how people will insist - Look at these fruits! So desirable!! But don't look at these other rotten fruits over here... they have nothing to do with what we're doing.

[oliver_denom]

I believe Jesus was right. By their fruits you'll know. The church's fruits are both delightful and dreadful.

Yep. It's funny how people will insist - Look at these fruits! So desirable!! But don't look at these other rotten fruits over here... they have nothing to do with what we're doing.

That's it exactly! If an organization's fruits were all evil then maybe that would be evidence of true evil. If an organization's fruits were all good, then maybe that would be evidence of true good. But if you end up with a mixed bag, then it's safe to assume that it's just people muddling through. You can't have it both ways. You can't claim that your fruits prove that you're a divine organization, and then blame the people (as if the people aren't also the church) when things go wrong.

[wtfluff]

The new thing is to blame everything I don't like about the church on its "Culture."

As others have mentioned, I don't think this is new; I used this excuse for years and years before reality finally slapped me. I hated the social aspects of "the church". I didn't enjoy the same activities as most of the folks in the church who are in possession of a priesthood antennae, so I didn't fit in socially. At the core, "the gospel" didn't really work for me either, so I didn't have that in common with anyone else either. Since I didn't fit in, I had no problem at all saying that I hated "church culture", but had no qualms at all saying "the church is true" or "the gospel is true."

Honestly, I don't think you can separate "the gospel" from "the church" from "the culture". Mix and match any of those three items with one or two others. If church/gospel/culture can't be separated, they are basically all the same thing. The church/gospel/culture all ended up being s*** sandwich for me, no matter how you sliced it up...

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

This is similar to the Doctrine vs Policy rationalization. Nailing Jello to the wall.

[Thoughtful]

“It’s the culture, not the church” is the paradigm I used for as long as I can remember. I may have gotten it from my father, I’m not sure. My understanding is that he really liked the original 1984 talk by Poelman and was confused when it was printed in the Ensign – it was not the talk he remembered. Of course it took years for him to know what the truth behind the talk was.

I used "It's the culture" to justify much of the cognitive dissonance I experienced. For me, it wasn’t until I was in presidencies, going to Ward Council, etc., that I began to see systemic problems that came from the top, many of those relating to be being a woman and being treated in the exact way the doctrine instructs women to be treated. It took a few years for me to have enough charity/compassion for my fellow Mormons to see them as fundamentally good and the church not. Until that point, both the church and the people were bad. It was a difficult change in thinking to make.

My husband uses this argument – anything he doesn’t like he labels as culture and not the true church. I’m hoping his current calling opens his eyes a little.

Agree with all your points. I've taken to saying that the people are true but the church isn't.

[Not Buying It]

What, exactly, is the point of having a Prophet who allegedly talks to God if he can’t receive revelation to correct all the problems caused by Church “culture”? If you ask me, Christ does a pretty careless job of leading his Church if he can’t be bothered to send revelation to correct all this stuff.

The “culture” argument only works if the Prophet doesn’t receive revelation, and if the doesn’t, then the Church isn’t what it claims to be. It’s a lose-lose position for a member to take.

[Reuben]

I think this is yet another post-hoc form of reasoning that's often called "moving the goalposts." Believers feel very strongly that there's a perfect core of Mormonism comprised of exactly what Heavenly Father wants us to know and do. If they see enough evidence that some aspect of Mormonism is bad, they have to whittle down the core - mentally cut out the bad - to maintain the core's perfection.

It goes like this. At first, the core consists of everything about the LDS church.

Q. What about X?

A. That's just the culture. The people aren't perfect. (Now the core consists of the doctrine and policies.)

Q. What about Y?

A. That's just a policy. The doctrine is pure. (Down to doctrine now.)

Q. What about Z?

A. That wasn't really doctrine. The leaders who taught that were speaking as men. (See the essay on the priesthood and temple ban for an example.)

Q. What about this other Z?

A. [whittle, whittle, whittle]

Many members end up whittling the core down to basic protestant Christianity plus a few Mormon essentials. These are my favorite kind of Mormons.

So... here's the most positive spin I can put on blaming the culture. It's the first step toward becoming the kind of Mormon I like best.

[Emower]

You can't have it both ways. You can't claim that your fruits prove that you're a divine organization, and then blame the people (as if the people aren't also the church) when things go wrong.

Sigh. If only we could point that out and have it make some impact. Sadly, Mormon God seems a little ineffectual and capricious in that regard.

[Emower]

I think this is yet another post-hoc form of reasoning that's often called "moving the goalposts." Believers feel very strongly that there's a perfect core of Mormonism comprised of exactly what Heavenly Father wants us to know and do. If they see enough evidence that some aspect of Mormonism is bad, they have to whittle down the core - mentally cut out the bad - to maintain the core's perfection.

It goes like this. At first, the core consists of everything about the LDS church.

Q. What about X?

A. That's just the culture. The people aren't perfect. (Now the core consists of the doctrine and policies.)

Q. What about Y?

A. That's just a policy. The doctrine is pure. (Down to doctrine now.)

Q. What about Z?

A. That wasn't really doctrine. The leaders who taught that were speaking as men. (See the essay on the priesthood and temple ban for an example.)

Q. What about this other Z?

A. [whittle, whittle, whittle]

Many members end up whittling the core down to basic protestant Christianity plus a few Mormon essentials. These are my favorite kind of Mormons.

So... here's the most positive spin I can put on blaming the culture. It's the first step toward becoming the kind of Mormon I like best.

Soooo true.

[alas]

I think this is yet another post-hoc form of reasoning that's often called "moving the goalposts." Believers feel very strongly that there's a perfect core of Mormonism comprised of exactly what Heavenly Father wants us to know and do. If they see enough evidence that some aspect of Mormonism is bad, they have to whittle down the core - mentally cut out the bad - to maintain the core's perfection.

It goes like this. At first, the core consists of everything about the LDS church.

Q. What about X?

A. That's just the culture. The people aren't perfect. (Now the core consists of the doctrine and policies.)

Q. What about Y?

A. That's just a policy. The doctrine is pure. (Down to doctrine now.)

Q. What about Z?

A. That wasn't really doctrine. The leaders who taught that were speaking as men. (See the essay on the priesthood and temple ban for an example.)

Q. What about this other Z?

A. [whittle, whittle, whittle]

Many members end up whittling the core down to basic protestant Christianity plus a few Mormon essentials. These are my favorite kind of Mormons.

So... here's the most positive spin I can put on blaming the culture. It's the first step toward becoming the kind of Mormon I like best.

I see this at the feminist blogs. They start throwing out the sexism of the larger US culture, then realize that Mormon culture is more sexist than the rest of the US culture, but hey, it is still culture so throw it out. Then they notice that women never give the prayer in GC, so they organize to change this policy. And well polygamy is something that God puts in place at times as it says in the BOM. They struggle with men having priesthood and have to resolve the cog dis somehow and either they decide that priesthood is no big deal and just something men make up to feel important or they decide it is a big deal and women really should have it too. So, either way, something is wrong. Then they look closer at how JS practiced it and decide that it never did come from God, at all, any time, ever. As feminists they want equality for all even gays, so the church is wrong about their policy toward gays. Then they look closer at the temple and, well we still believe in continuing revelation, so it will change. They try keeping the anointing and throw out the endowment, but even in the anointing there are sexist things, so in the trash it goes. The sealing is nice and I want to be sealed, but not in an unequal way where I am his property because I give myself to him, so the church is doing that wrong too. Then they hear one of the talks on tithing and how the very poor should pay before buying food for their children and that isn't right, because feminists put family and children before church. They find out about huge land purchases and development and, well, if the church invests tithing and thinks it can use the interest from tithing for getting rich, well, it is still tithing and belongs to the members of the church, not the corporation of the church.

Sometimes I want to shake some of them and ask what is left after they whittle all the sexist things out? They have rejected JS because of how he abused women and called it polygamy. They reject priesthood, or reject the doctrine that only men have it. They reject the temple. And aren't they down to liberal Protestant beliefs?

[Margarita]

All mormons...no matter what flavor, needs to realize that it is not just culture...that the fundamentals are not right...that this is an organization based on a illusions and changes with culture...not by it ...but with it. To me, there is a difference.