Dealing with TBMs

[slavereeno]

I have only confided my faith crisis to a couple of TBMs thus far. Its interesting, things seem to go a couple of ways:

First, they assume I have become an atheist, probably because many people do become atheist after a Mormon faith crisis. I am then immediately asked what I am doing or have done that I need God to not exist so badly.

Second, when I say I still believe in God, they assume then that I still believe in the same Godhead and nature of God that they do and try to use that to prove the church is right and that I have just been deceived.

I am still deep in the throws of deconstruction and I don't claim to KNOW anything. Their attempts to force me to decide exactly what I believe (primarily to reconvert me, find holes in my logic, or justify themselves) have caused me undue anxiety and stress. That stress is then attributed to "The loss of the spirit" because of my sins and/or unbelief. Then anything else bad that happens is attributed to my lack of faith, and my crummy attitude justifies their belief that I no longer have the companionship of the Holy Ghost.

What gives them the right to tell me what I do or don't believe or force me to explain the universe just because I no longer believe in theirs? I am trying really hard not to point out my reasons and leave their beliefs alone. I am not asking the tough questions of them, yet I get nothing but grief in return! I can see why one in this position would want to just shell them with the cold hard facts, or tough questions back and point out all the stupid stuff they believe in... because they won't leave it alone either!

If I were to really come out about my faith crisis I can only assume I will get a heaping load of this, not a great incentive.

[Jeffret]

I am still deep in the throws of deconstruction and I don't claim to KNOW anything.

While the throes may end, I'm not sure the knowing anything ever does. At best, you just end up with more things to not know anything about.

[Fifi de la Vergne]

I have only confided my faith crisis to a couple of TBMs thus far . . .If I were to really come out about my faith crisis I can only assume I will get a heaping load of this, not a great incentive.

I think that you are right in assuming you will only get more of the same for disclosing more about your concerns, or disclosing to more people. My experience has been that there is very little to be gained, even in sharing with our nearest and dearest -- when they are true believers. We want to be validated, comforted, reassured that we are not going to be cast out. Instead we are most likely going to be seen as being dangerous antagonists who pose a threat to the tribe and to the world-view in which your listener is heavily invested. The reactions you describe are among some of the primary defense mechanisms used.

Becoming a Stage 4 believer in a community of Stage 3 members is a lonely road. That is why NOM, the exmormon subreddit and other sites are necessary for so many of us. Here, people get us.

[RubinHighlander]

What gives them the right to tell me what I do or don't believe or force me to explain the universe just because I no longer believe in theirs?

Well, here's my experience and opinions:

Their self imposed super special view of the world is what they think gives them that right to tell others! This is the fundamental problem with any religion that claims absolute truth and superiority over all things. If they can force you to disclose any specifics about your disaffection, they have the info they need to go and figure out a solution to fix you, because you are broken in their view. They think they have an answer to everything; when it's nothing specific, the answer is prayer and more faith. There's just no way they can be wrong.

This is why you simply have to avoid any conversations on the topic. If they press you for reasons, just keep the reasons very generalized so there's no easy response. Statements like "I just don't believe the church's truth claims anymore." are probably as specific as you can get. If they press further, you keep control of the narrative and just flat out tell them that as long as they are plugged into the matrix and drinking the koolaid, there's no way to have a productive conversation about it. You don't talk down to them, you don't allow them to steer the conversation, you just keep it non-emotional and factual to the very basic premise that you simply do not believe and you won't be disclosing the specific reasons.

Now, when it comes to close family members, sometimes disclosing your emotional pain caused by the cogdis can be helpful to get them to empathize with what you have and are going through. As I saw my friends struggling and all the sincere due diligence they went through to come to their conclusions about the church, it helped me to get interested and start my own investigation.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

I have a friend who coined the term "condescenvy" in describing what he felt when his brother went to stage 4. In some ways the TBMs will act condescendingly to you as part of their defense mechanism, but simultaneously or subconsciously they will also envy your mental freedom from the cognitive dissonance. One reason they may ask what you now believe is based on a curiosity and a feeling that they themselves could not possibly live without a belief construct.

[MerrieMiss]

I am still deep in the throws of deconstruction and I don't claim to KNOW anything.

While the throes may end, I'm not sure the knowing anything ever does. At best, you just end up with more things to not know anything about.

I'm fairly comfortable with having a long list of things I don't know. I'm out of the throes, but I do find myself somewhat paralyzed by uncertainty - I don't know what decision to make because I don't know, and I recognize I don't know.

[MerrieMiss]

I really haven't told any TBMs, so I don't have any experience with that. My family of origin ranges from TBM to exmo, and while that may seem great from the perspective of one who had a faith transition, it's actually very complicated. Just because two people don't believe in the LDS church doesn't mean they interpret it and feel the same way about it. You may get pushback from non-believers/NOMs/exmos as well.

[alas]

This is where having an answer ready ahead of time helps. You KNOW TBMs are going to want to reconvert you, so have your answer ready. Something they can't really argue with, depending on your personal reasons. For me, I went inactive because church perfectionism made me crazy. I could tolerate the stupid beliefs, but the "do more, do more, do more," attitude that one can never do enough to serve the church was just plain old emotional abuse and I had to cut all emotional abuse out of my life for my mental health. So, I told people that I had to stop going to church to protect my mental health. I usually got an uncomprehending stare. But if they tried to argue, I just repeated. Then if they tried to argue, I could honestly tell them that it is people exactly like them I have to protect myself from.

So, for you, if your issues are history, try saying "I don't believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet because of some history issues that you really do not want to discuss with me." Then if they insist they DO want to discuss those issues, they just gave you permission to tell them about Hellen Mar Kimball. Then as they are looking dumbfounded, you can say, see, I told you that you didn't want to discuss this.

Actually you don't need to set it up as a trap. You can just say that there are issues that the more you have studied, the more proof you find that the church is not what it claims to be. If they continue to want specifics, just emphasize that you have thought deeply about the issue and you are sure of where you stand

Or if your main issue is doctrinal stuff, you can say that there are doctrinal issues you do not agree with. If they demand to know, like what, just repeat your first statement and add that you see no point in discussing it as you understand what the church teaches and you disagree.

So, the way you discuss this is
(1) have an answer ready.
(2) repeat your answer if needed.
(3) say that you see little point in discussing further because you have studied and you are sure where you stand.
(4) if it comes to it, just tell them flat out that there is nothing they can say that will change your mind because you have studied and thought deeply about things.
(5) give no details and refuse to discuss further.
(6) be confident that you know more about this than they do.

[slavereeno]

Thanks everyone, for letting me rant and for the excellent suggestions. I used a friend that is a nuanced believer as a test to see how this might go, and it did not go quite as well as I had hoped.

[Red Ryder]

My two rules for talking to TBMs:

1. Don't
2. See rule 1.

My go to excuse has become "I just don't wear Mormonism on my sleeve like everyone else and I like to swear alot and have an occasional ice tea."

People get it than wonder why my underwear is black??

Slavereeno, what you really need is time. At the beginning of all of this journey out your obviously and rightfully feeling the need for self explanation to gain validation & understanding. Over time, you'll find that it will NEVER come from a TBM and eventually you'll stop caring about both. Ironically, you'll find an instant connection with other NOM's who can offer understanding and validate that we are not the crazy ones.

With TBM's you're either addicted to porn or deceived by Stan.

[Brent]

Always assume good intent.

Always.

Assume they truly love you and have no other way to express it.

Assume they cannot "get on the other side of the ball" to understand any other beliefs but their own.

Assume they are frightened by happiness outside the embrace of the church.

Assume they are trapped in the box and can't imagine a world outside of it.

[moksha]

TBMs are wonderful people. While they may have a different set of religious and political beliefs and perhaps view the earth as having a hollow center filled with the lost tribes of Israel, they never-the-less do many kind and selfless deeds. Just don't press a cross against their foreheads.

[Corsair]

It's difficult to stop playing the TBM game even after you stop being TBM. Like Brent stated above, always assume good intent. I recommend this even when they either don't deserve it or actually have bad intent. It sounds like you are still playing according to their rules and are all too willingly shouldering the burden of proof.

[Josephsmith]

Dealing with TBM's can be exhausting. I did a lot of it back in my day. Orson Hyde, holy cow that guy was as rigid as they come and not very understanding either. You just have to shrug it off and continue on with what makes you happy. Do not worry about what others think of you. I didnt! And I got shot... But I had a good run!

[No Tof]

[quote=alas

So, I told people that I had to stop going to church to protect my mental health. I usually got an uncomprehending stare. But if they tried to argue, I just repeated. Then if they tried to argue, I could honestly tell them that it is people exactly like them I have to protect myself from.

[/quote]

Love this.

My limited experience in talking to TBM “friends” went poorly the first time and great the second time.

The first was a long emotional conversation after which I think we both felt a little beat up. I’ll never do that again. Giving details to those who don’t want to know often encourages the “backfire” effect.

The second time was much better. An acquaintance called me up out of the blue and offered to buy me lunch. By this time in my journey I highly suspected another attempt to help bishop NoTof. We had a nice lunch and as the time changed to a closing he asked me why I didn’t go to church anymore.

I thanked him for his friendship and suggested if he was sincere in his question, he would need to do a little study. I pointed him to the church essays and to FAIR Mormon and said we could discuss any of the topics that inspired him.

Haven’t had to do any more visiting.

[20/20hind]

I dont have many people ask me why i left the church. But my plan is to just say, "my personality type does not jive with fundamentalist or (organized) religions" or something like that. I dont get asked much, I think because i try to live my life the way i want, and it makes me a generally happy person. If you are happy and enjoying life people recognize that and may not be so inclined to ask about your circumstance regarding the church.

And i can say i am so much more happy out of the church. It really has made a difference in the quality of my life.

[wtfluff]

I thanked him for his friendship and suggested if he was sincere in his question, he would need to do a little study. I pointed him to the church essays and to FAIR Mormon and said we could discuss any of the topics that inspired him.

I think this is a brilliant way to go about it. Perhaps offer a simple explanation such as "mormonsim just doesn't work" or, "the church is not what it claims to be", and then invite them to study lds.org topics if they would like to have further, in-depth discussion.

[slavereeno]

This thread was buried and I missed a bunch of these responses!

My two rules for talking to TBMs:

1. Don't
2. See rule 1.

Good advice I am finding that its a waste of time to talk Mormonism with TBMs, the circular logic is dizzying.

Always assume good intent.

Always.

I get way to worked up about it, start seeing malice everywhere, then I start sounding like a really bitter apostate.

TBMs are wonderful people.

They really are, but they get really anxious when confronted...

It sounds like you are still playing according to their rules and are all too willingly shouldering the burden of proof.

This. I tend to get defensive and all wound up. I did this in our last email volley. I accused him of regurgitating apologist stuff and he accused me of regurgitating apostate stuff. I can see this is damaging a 20 year friendship. I guess if I stay off the defensive and stop shouldering the burden of proof, but just be kind and firm? I dunno, I get so annoyed by the assumption that if I am not defending myself I have "come round" and see the light again. I suppose I shouldn't care if they think they have re-converted me? This friend feels that he has received inspiration that he is supposed to help me, by which I think he feels he will be helping me back into the fold of believers.

The first was a long emotional conversation after which I think we both felt a little beat up. I’ll never do that again. Giving details to those who don’t want to know often encourages the “backfire” effect.

The backfire effect seems to be all I experience...

Perhaps offer a simple explanation such as "mormonsim just doesn't work" or, "the church is not what it claims to be", and then invite them to study lds.org topics if they would like to have further, in-depth discussion.

I need to be simple and firm in my responses. With this particular friend, he has read most of the JS papers, and is far more familiar with them than I am.

[Dravin]

I have only confided my faith crisis to a couple of TBMs thus far. Its interesting, things seem to go a couple of ways:

First, they assume I have become an atheist, probably because many people do become atheist after a Mormon faith crisis.

In hindsight it is amusing that when I confided in my wife her first question was, "Do you even believe in god?"

I am then immediately asked what I am doing or have done that I need God to not exist so badly.

These days the standard, "Wow, you must be angry at god!" just makes me laugh. Next time I encounter it I've vowed to respond, "Why are you so angry at Zeus? You don't believe in every god imagined by humanity except for one, are you angry at them all?"

Second, when I say I still believe in God, they assume then that I still believe in the same Godhead and nature of God that they do and try to use that to prove the church is right and that I have just been deceived.

To be fair Mormons as a general rule suck at understanding anything except the Mormon concept of god. Fully realized alternative models of god aren't exactly in their wheelhouse. That said, I'm not sure your standard Christian would do any better, god is defined as they've been taught other concepts need not apply.

I am still deep in the throws of deconstruction and I don't claim to KNOW anything. Their attempts to force me to decide exactly what I believe (primarily to reconvert me, find holes in my logic, or justify themselves) have caused me undue anxiety and stress.

My response to my wife asking if I believed in god was a very honest, "I don't know, I'll think about it if you want me to. Just realize the conclusion I reach may not be one you like."

Then anything else bad that happens is attributed to my lack of faith, and my crummy attitude justifies their belief that I no longer have the companionship of the Holy Ghost.

That's just your standard 'all evidence confirms Mormonism'.

What gives them the right to tell me what I do or don't believe or force me to explain the universe just because I no longer believe in theirs?

There is great freedom in being comfortable in saying, "I don't know, and I may never know." A lot of Mormons will take that as a victory as Mormonism places a lot of weight on having answers (which is amusing because often when pressed they give the Mormon version of, "I don't know." aka "We'll understand in the next life."), and coming directly from Mormonism it can be hard to admit and so it doesn't just feel like a victory as a Mormon it feels like a loss for you until you can become comfortable with it.

[Reuben]

One of the finest ways to demonstrate exactly how many questions Mormonism doesn't answer is to keep asking "Why?" In my experience, it tends to answer 1-2 levels deeper than atheism.

Why are we here? To get a body, gain experience, and be tested.

Why do we need a body? To have fullness of joy.

Why do we need a body to have fullness of joy? We'll understand in the next life.

Why do we need this experience? We'll understand in the next life.

If God knows everything about us, why do we need to be tested? We'll understand in the next life.

Even if it's all true, Mormonism is really only good at making you feel like you have answers to life's deep and important questions.