To out or not to out-- thinking out loud

[Thoughtful]

The missionaries texted for a visit.

I said we're busy, but if its about the BOM challenge, we're already doing it.

They said they just want to get to know the ward. So I invited them over for yard work.

Im paying tithing via bill pay, so I imagine the ward may notice it's dropped off. I'm not wearing garments (Healthier and thinner than I've been in years!) But I am still dressing garment compliant.

I am so tired of my calling and want to be done with it, but I don't want to out myself and become a project. I don't really want to do anything different instead for a calling.

What do you see the benefits of trying to maintain activity vs trying to fade out of the same ten people club toward inactive? I just don't think I can fade unnoticed. I think my parents know where I am. My ILs might have a coronary if they knew-- not sure if that's better than having them guilt bomb us.

A few not LDS work friends know I'm mentally out and they applaud that choice. They know enough about it to know its sketchy about women and mainly about the men being chosen of God.

I still have no idea how to approach it with my teens. They aren't cognitively ready for nuance, and I absolutely do not plan to miss any weddings.

What do you see as the pros and cons of diminished church activity and coming out of the closet beyond just being "out of town", busy, or sick on weekends?

[Anon70]

There's this family I knew in a previous ward that I think about frequently. They hardly ever came. Were sooooo nice and kind and too busy to have callings. Never bore their testimonies. Showed up for what activities they felt like. Never saw them cleaning the chapel. Lots of wine at their house "for non member friends and family". They have TRs. And they attend their kids' stuff (ordinances/marriages).

I don't know anything but I think they're out or NOM and they just play the game on their terms.

I don't think you get Ex'd for not coming all the time. And the nicer you are about it the less they seem to question you. Again, just my observations of a single family that I hope to emulate soon.

[RubinHighlander]

What do you see the benefits of trying to maintain activity vs trying to fade out of the same ten people club toward inactive? I just don't think I can fade unnoticed. I think my parents know where I am. My ILs might have a coronary if they knew-- not sure if that's better than having them guilt bomb us.

Is the only thing keeping you from coming out your fear of becoming a project and being shunned by the community or are there other more important reasons? I'm also puzzled as to why you pay any more tithing at all, unless you are doing it for the benefit of your significant other who is still active.

What happens in your ward and stake if you disclose your disbelief is really a roll of the LDS dice. Some local leaders are respectful and some are douche bags. Some ward members will shun you and some will be cool about it and still talk to you on the street or in the grocery story. The key to not becoming a project is basically to lay down your law and rules for engagement. That will require a bold and formal statement. Otherwise, if you continue to try to ride the edge and don't make your rules known, you play it their way and risk being on the project list. You have to figure out when being a project starts to feel like a form of harassment to the point you've had enough, then be prepared to put your foot down and make your wishes known.

I thought I could fade out gracefully but I live in a zealous ward and stake and our family was quickly becoming a project as we slipped into attending only 1-2 times per month. It finally came to a crossroads where a bishop's exec sec was diligently trying to get my YW DD in for an interview, I just told him to stop. Then the voice, email and text messages from my bish to come and meet with him. I told him I could not meet with him at his office (refuse to put yourself under their authority) but would be happy to go to lunch with him. So he opted for that, but when it came time to set a date I was thinking about how this was going to go down. I could not come up with a good outcome for either of us. It goes back to that fact that you can't have a productive conversation with a TBM, they just see the world through those LDS glasses. There are no amount of facts or logic you can present to TBMs to make them see your side of it; they will continue to see you as deceived, lost and broken and will try to fix you.

So I put off the lunch and wrote up the email. In a nutshell I basically told them (Bish & SP) I don't believe it, I don't agree with church policies and doctrines and we were done with church as far as participation. I made it very clear we were not leaving beause we had been offended or because of any sin against the church or God, we simply didn't believe it anymore. I didn't get into details. I also laid down my rules of engagement: happy to talk and have visitors as long as it was not church related. I also empathized with the cogdis that this resignation would cause them. I told him we had not removed our names from church records, but that we understood that process and our legal rights and would do so if we felt we were being harassed; I felt that would provide us a little leverage over them.

I was lucky as far as the local leader roulette; so far, after a couple of years they have respected our wishes. Most chance encounters with TBMs seems pretty normal. I've participated in a local ward driven cleanup of the neighborhood after the wildfire this past summer and it was all good.

Hope this helps - good luck and god speed!

[slavereeno]

That is the question...

DW (and I to a lesser degree), when we do something we usually try to do it well. So one of my big concerns is that there IS no middle road for me. Either we get out or we will break ourselves on the rocks of the church. DW is going to put in 110% at anything she does.

On a different note, There is a woman in my ward, she used to be part of the same ten people club. But over the past few years she has refused several callings (she told Bishop she would be willing to be the ward librarian), refuses to pray or speak in SM, no teaching callings for sure. Supports hubby and her kids, but her kids stopped going to mutual for the most part. I keep wondering if she NOMed.

[Red Ryder]

There's numerous options in situations like this:

1. Slowly poison the well. This includes a few monthly off the wall testimonies about Heavenly Mother, conversations you've had with Satan, your crazy food storage addiction, intimacy issues and period difficulties due to wearing garments, Brigham Young quotes, your secret fetish and fantasies towards the Stake President, and Adam God doctrine. You'll be labeled "that crazy lady" but eventually people will leave you alone. Win? Win!

2. Become a Half Ass Mormon. I think someone started a HAM support forum but it was never finished. This strategy is by far the easiest to implement because you just say yes to everything and then don't do anything. You can run this strategy as long as you want and eventually you will be labeled as unreliable and people will leave you alone. Win! Win!

3. Become a hypochondriac and let your "health" problems set you free. If you have an internet connection, spend your time on WebMD and find some obscure syndrome, phobia, or disease that manifests itself in socially unacceptable ways that prevent you from spending more than 45 minutes in an LDS meetinghouse. Fartomyopia, sacramental gluten induced migrainitis, and prodrome anti-glossophobia which manifests as public masturbatory confessions are all good ones. Thoroughly research them so you can discuss with the semi active RN just called to be the Relief Society 2nd Counselor. If you work this strategy well, you can benefit from the compassionate service sisters and receive a minimum of 14 meals a month. If you wisely choose a contagious sounding disease, you may even get out of visiting teaching visits.

4. Become a chronic confessor. This strategy is fairly simple but considerably time consuming and potentially embarrassing. Clear your calendar and put the ward executive secretary on speed dial. At first, schedule a meeting with the Bishop office for 30 minutes. Over time, increase your confession meetings up to 3 hours. Start slow with mild infractions such as failure to read your scriptures, watching soap operas instead of cleaning, and gradually work your way up to ogling your hunky non-mormon neighbor Steve. Let the Bishop know you feel like a failure as a wife for watching General Hospital, setting the table with paper plates, and holding FHE on Tuesdays. Confess, confess, confess! This might be embarrassing at first especially as the masturbating deacon starts to recognize you each week as he waits outside the bishops office before his appointment. The key to this strategy is to bury the bishop in minutia details so that he starts to avoid you. Win! Win!

5. Get offended. This strategy is effective and easy to implement if you already have a beef with someone. Let's assume you don't. It's time to create one. Plan to attend the next ward potluck dinner or RS home enrichment night and bring a dish. In this dish, double the salt and half the sugar. Make sure to under or over cook depending on your personality. Bring your food half an hour early to ensure the proper room temperature and place it strategically on the long table for exposure. After dinner has started, walk around and notice who isn't eating your dish. Make sure to question them as if their temple recommend depended on eating it. Then get loud and pout how offended you are that no one ate your food. Complain that it's a waste of the Bishops Storehouse resources. If you're not much of a cook, you can always choose to be offended by the church policy against children of gay parents. I hear that is effective too.

6. Be honest. This strategy is by far the hardest and has the most severe consequences which could include divorce, neighbor shaming, or getting kicked out of the celestial kingdom. Harsh, right? To be honest means that the church doesn't meet your spiritual, social, or underwear needs. To be honest means that we admit to our spiritual leaders, our lovers, and our children that The Church is an institutionally dishonest organization that can be toxic to our mental health. It means that we must step back and preserve our own sense of integrity and call a stone in a hat a spade, and a tapir a tapir. We must learn to let go and not care that people think we are deceived by Satan. We must not care if people see our shoulders, think we are duped, and admit that we can never go to the temple again. We must be honest with ourselves first, our families second, and don't give a flip what anyone else thinks. We must live our lives with freedom to choose what we believe and stand tall against an army of good intentioned home teachers, bishops, and missionaries who will never let us remain inactive. We must push forward for we are like the armies of Helaman, we have been taught in our youth. We will be the lords broken down former members, who know the truth!

[slavereeno]

There's numerous options in situations like this:

I can't read your posts when people are around. I seriously laugh out loud, then have to explain what I am laughing at.

[deacon blues]

Thanks Red, this one is really really good Robert Kirby should let you take over his column.

[dareka]

2. Become a Half Ass Mormon. I think someone started a HAM support forum but it was never finished.

HAHAHAHAHA!!! I just about sprayed my monitor with the chai I was drinking when I read that. Thanks for the laugh!

[trophywife26.2]

The thing that stood out to me in your post was, I'm not missing any weddings.

My first instinct was just to tell you to throw caution to the wind and embrace what is. Until I read about the wedding thing. If you think your kids are going to get married in the temple and you feel like you have to be there, don't out yourself yet.

I will never regret the day I stopped living for what people thought of me and started living truer to myself, but my situation is different than yours. I certainly miss the church and love the church. Sometimes I wish my brain could go back to believing because for me it would be simpler, but I don't regret the day I stopped living my life for other people. Because... how will it hurt my in laws, what will my neighbors think, what if I can't find a job in Utah county. It was good to let it all go and just let the chips fall where they may.

Good luck!

[moksha]

I just don't think I can fade unnoticed.

Rage, rage against the dying of the light. The trick is to let your light shine where you would like it too. Just because you've been chosen as the president of your local Mensa chapter, does not mean you have to cease your membership in the Flat Earth Society - especially if your family is all flat-earthers. Just carry the FES card and enjoy the heck out of your new found Mensa interests.

[Anon70]

There's numerous options in situations like this:

1. Slowly poison the well. This includes a few monthly off the wall testimonies about Heavenly Mother, conversations you've had with Satan, your crazy food storage addiction, intimacy issues and period difficulties due to wearing garments, Brigham Young quotes, your secret fetish and fantasies towards the Stake President, and Adam God doctrine. You'll be labeled "that crazy lady" but eventually people will leave you alone. Win? Win!

2. Become a Half Ass Mormon. I think someone started a HAM support forum but it was never finished. This strategy is by far the easiest to implement because you just say yes to everything and then don't do anything. You can run this strategy as long as you want and eventually you will be labeled as unreliable and people will leave you alone. Win! Win!

3. Become a hypochondriac and let your "health" problems set you free. If you have an internet connection, spend your time on WebMD and find some obscure syndrome, phobia, or disease that manifests itself in socially unacceptable ways that prevent you from spending more than 45 minutes in an LDS meetinghouse. Fartomyopia, sacramental gluten induced migrainitis, and prodrome anti-glossophobia which manifests as public masturbatory confessions are all good ones. Thoroughly research them so you can discuss with the semi active RN just called to be the Relief Society 2nd Counselor. If you work this strategy well, you can benefit from the compassionate service sisters and receive a minimum of 14 meals a month. If you wisely choose a contagious sounding disease, you may even get out of visiting teaching visits.

4. Become a chronic confessor. This strategy is fairly simple but considerably time consuming and potentially embarrassing. Clear your calendar and put the ward executive secretary on speed dial. At first, schedule a meeting with the Bishop office for 30 minutes. Over time, increase your confession meetings up to 3 hours. Start slow with mild infractions such as failure to read your scriptures, watching soap operas instead of cleaning, and gradually work your way up to ogling your hunky non-mormon neighbor Steve. Let the Bishop know you feel like a failure as a wife for watching General Hospital, setting the table with paper plates, and holding FHE on Tuesdays. Confess, confess, confess! This might be embarrassing at first especially as the masturbating deacon starts to recognize you each week as he waits outside the bishops office before his appointment. The key to this strategy is to bury the bishop in minutia details so that he starts to avoid you. Win! Win!

5. Get offended. This strategy is effective and easy to implement if you already have a beef with someone. Let's assume you don't. It's time to create one. Plan to attend the next ward potluck dinner or RS home enrichment night and bring a dish. In this dish, double the salt and half the sugar. Make sure to under or over cook depending on your personality. Bring your food half an hour early to ensure the proper room temperature and place it strategically on the long table for exposure. After dinner has started, walk around and notice who isn't eating your dish. Make sure to question them as if their temple recommend depended on eating it. Then get loud and pout how offended you are that no one ate your food. Complain that it's a waste of the Bishops Storehouse resources. If you're not much of a cook, you can always choose to be offended by the church policy against children of gay parents. I hear that is effective too.

6. Be honest. This strategy is by far the hardest and has the most severe consequences which could include divorce, neighbor shaming, or getting kicked out of the celestial kingdom. Harsh, right? To be honest means that the church doesn't meet your spiritual, social, or underwear needs. To be honest means that we admit to our spiritual leaders, our lovers, and our children that The Church is an institutionally dishonest organization that can be toxic to our mental health. It means that we must step back and preserve our own sense of integrity and call a stone in a hat a spade, and a tapir a tapir. We must learn to let go and not care that people think we are deceived by Satan. We must not care if people see our shoulders, think we are duped, and admit that we can never go to the temple again. We must be honest with ourselves first, our families second, and don't give a flip what anyone else thinks. We must live our lives with freedom to choose what we believe and stand tall against an army of good intentioned home teachers, bishops, and missionaries who will never let us remain inactive. We must push forward for we are like the armies of Helaman, we have been taught in our youth. We will be the lords broken down former members, who know the truth!

You're dangerous for my marriage. I laughed out loud a few times reading this and my DH wanted to know what I'm reading. Oops!

[Give It Time]

The thing that stood out to me in your post was, I'm not missing any weddings.

My first instinct was just to tell you to throw caution to the wind and embrace what is. Until I read about the wedding thing. If you think your kids are going to get married in the temple and you feel like you have to be there, don't out yourself yet.

I will never regret the day I stopped living for what people thought of me and started living truer to myself, but my situation is different than yours. I certainly miss the church and love the church. Sometimes I wish my brain could go back to believing because for me it would be simpler, but I don't regret the day I stopped living my life for other people. Because... how will it hurt my in laws, what will my neighbors think, what if I can't find a job in Utah county. It was good to let it all go and just let the chips fall where they may.

Good luck!

My views are very similar to this and I also think RR could substitute for Kirby.

Now, for what's unique from me for you to consider.

My older son had no testimony and I was hiding my participation on NOM from my younger. I didn't feel good about that, so I told my younger son. I told him that if we don't have an authentic relationship, we don't have a relationship. I also told him that was THE skeleton in my closet. He's not going to find a secret lover, or mob affiliations or anything else in my closet. I have stayed in the closet with my ward for your reasons.

It's difficult, now, because my younger son has told me he doesn't plan to go on a mission and I doubt he has a testimony. He just hasn't told me, yet. So, the balance could shift. If my son has a testimony, I think his shelf is very heavy or it doesn't give him joy. So, we'll see there. In the meantime, whatever my actual congregation is, they will probably be the last to know because of the whole temple wedding thing.

I have told my work, because I can get free tea, coffee and soda there and sometimes I want the healthier beverages. I was getting side-eye from people and got tired of it. My boss knew something was up and suggested my being authentic; I had just read a Taoist thought piece about being authentic and decided to jump in. It went fine. I did have someone try to convert me back and I swear to you she thinks my faith crisis is over tea, but I can live with that.

My extended family will be just before the ward. No wait. I just realized this. I have family members who would believe it is their responsibility to inform my ecclesiastical leader, if they don't already know. So, I might switch things so my family is told last. However, my home and my work are two places I can be authentic and that ain't too bad.

[MerrieMiss]

I was doing the slow fade in my last ward. It was a very zealous ward, so there were a lot of people eager to climb the social and power hierarchy. I taught primary for a while, never went above and beyond, kept quiet, slowly stopped going to activities, got busy with other things, took advantage of kids being sick not to be around as much...and it's kind of sad, but I wasn't really missed. Looking back, it was probably a really good strategy for me at the time and I wonder if I completely messed things up in that respect by moving.

However, my kids are young, so youth activation/youth programs, baptisms at the temple, mission prep are all very far in the future, as are weddings. I can see how having teenagers could make the slow fade difficult and the possibility of becoming a project imminent.

I commiserate with the in-laws thing. I would be far more open about where I stand if it were not for my in-laws. It's interesting; we live close to them, but they aren't interested in spending much time with the grandchildren (not when there's RS activities to plan! Stake priesthood to go to!) but I can see all that changing if I came out. I have no doubt if they knew they would descend upon our family and try to save my kids. I just don't need that.

[Thoughtful]

I commiserate with the in-laws thing. I would be far more open about where I stand if it were not for my in-laws. It's interesting; we live close to them, but they aren't interested in spending much time with the grandchildren (not when there's RS activities to plan! Stake priesthood to go to!) but I can see all that changing if I came out. I have no doubt if they knew they would descend upon our family and try to save my kids. I just don't need that.

Im almost positive my ILs have the 2nd anointing. It would be like dropping a nuclear bomb to tell them.

The thing that stood out to me in your post was, I'm not missing any weddings.

My first instinct was just to tell you to throw caution to the wind and embrace what is. Until I read about the wedding thing. If you think your kids are going to get married in the temple and you feel like you have to be there, don't out yourself yet.

I will never regret the day I stopped living for what people thought of me and started living truer to myself, but my situation is different than yours. I certainly miss the church and love the church. Sometimes I wish my brain could go back to believing because for me it would be simpler, but I don't regret the day I stopped living my life for other people. Because... how will it hurt my in laws, what will my neighbors think, what if I can't find a job in Utah county. It was good to let it all go and just let the chips fall where they may.

Good luck!

My views are very similar to this and I also think RR could substitute for Kirby.

Now, for what's unique from me for you to consider.

My older son had no testimony and I was hiding my participation on NOM from my younger. I didn't feel good about that, so I told my younger son. I told him that if we don't have an authentic relationship, we don't have a relationship. I also told him that was THE skeleton in my closet. He's not going to find a secret lover, or mob affiliations or anything else in my closet. I have stayed in the closet with my ward for your reasons.

It's difficult, now, because my younger son has told me he doesn't plan to go on a mission and I doubt he has a testimony. He just hasn't told me, yet. So, the balance could shift. If my son has a testimony, I think his shelf is very heavy or it doesn't give him joy. So, we'll see there. In the meantime, whatever my actual congregation is, they will probably be the last to know because of the whole temple wedding thing.

I have told my work, because I can get free tea, coffee and soda there and sometimes I want the healthier beverages. I was getting side-eye from people and got tired of it. My boss knew something was up and suggested my being authentic; I had just read a Taoist thought piece about being authentic and decided to jump in. It went fine. I did have someone try to convert me back and I swear to you she thinks my faith crisis is over tea, but I can live with that.

My extended family will be just before the ward. No wait. I just realized this. I have family members who would believe it is their responsibility to inform my ecclesiastical leader, if they don't already know. So, I might switch things so my family is told last. However, my home and my work are two places I can be authentic and that ain't too bad.

My son almost certainly won't go on a mission, but he still believes. I don't think it will last, but he has so much going on he doesn't need to be plunged into a faith crisis.

My daughter is very, very susceptible to the love bombing brain washing in YW. I constantly point out the sexism in hopes she will get sick of it on her own.

If she does start planning a Mormon wedding, I'll explain the temple problems.

There's numerous options in situations like this:

1. Slowly poison the well. This includes a few monthly off the wall testimonies about Heavenly Mother, conversations you've had with Satan, your crazy food storage addiction, intimacy issues and period difficulties due to wearing garments, Brigham Young quotes, your secret fetish and fantasies towards the Stake President, and Adam God doctrine. You'll be labeled "that crazy lady" but eventually people will leave you alone. Win? Win!

2. Become a Half Ass Mormon. I think someone started a HAM support forum but it was never finished. This strategy is by far the easiest to implement because you just say yes to everything and then don't do anything. You can run this strategy as long as you want and eventually you will be labeled as unreliable and people will leave you alone. Win! Win!

3. Become a hypochondriac and let your "health" problems set you free. If you have an internet connection, spend your time on WebMD and find some obscure syndrome, phobia, or disease that manifests itself in socially unacceptable ways that prevent you from spending more than 45 minutes in an LDS meetinghouse. Fartomyopia, sacramental gluten induced migrainitis, and prodrome anti-glossophobia which manifests as public masturbatory confessions are all good ones. Thoroughly research them so you can discuss with the semi active RN just called to be the Relief Society 2nd Counselor. If you work this strategy well, you can benefit from the compassionate service sisters and receive a minimum of 14 meals a month. If you wisely choose a contagious sounding disease, you may even get out of visiting teaching visits.

4. Become a chronic confessor. This strategy is fairly simple but considerably time consuming and potentially embarrassing. Clear your calendar and put the ward executive secretary on speed dial. At first, schedule a meeting with the Bishop office for 30 minutes. Over time, increase your confession meetings up to 3 hours. Start slow with mild infractions such as failure to read your scriptures, watching soap operas instead of cleaning, and gradually work your way up to ogling your hunky non-mormon neighbor Steve. Let the Bishop know you feel like a failure as a wife for watching General Hospital, setting the table with paper plates, and holding FHE on Tuesdays. Confess, confess, confess! This might be embarrassing at first especially as the masturbating deacon starts to recognize you each week as he waits outside the bishops office before his appointment. The key to this strategy is to bury the bishop in minutia details so that he starts to avoid you. Win! Win!

5. Get offended. This strategy is effective and easy to implement if you already have a beef with someone. Let's assume you don't. It's time to create one. Plan to attend the next ward potluck dinner or RS home enrichment night and bring a dish. In this dish, double the salt and half the sugar. Make sure to under or over cook depending on your personality. Bring your food half an hour early to ensure the proper room temperature and place it strategically on the long table for exposure. After dinner has started, walk around and notice who isn't eating your dish. Make sure to question them as if their temple recommend depended on eating it. Then get loud and pout how offended you are that no one ate your food. Complain that it's a waste of the Bishops Storehouse resources. If you're not much of a cook, you can always choose to be offended by the church policy against children of gay parents. I hear that is effective too.

6. Be honest. This strategy is by far the hardest and has the most severe consequences which could include divorce, neighbor shaming, or getting kicked out of the celestial kingdom. Harsh, right? To be honest means that the church doesn't meet your spiritual, social, or underwear needs. To be honest means that we admit to our spiritual leaders, our lovers, and our children that The Church is an institutionally dishonest organization that can be toxic to our mental health. It means that we must step back and preserve our own sense of integrity and call a stone in a hat a spade, and a tapir a tapir. We must learn to let go and not care that people think we are deceived by Satan. We must not care if people see our shoulders, think we are duped, and admit that we can never go to the temple again. We must be honest with ourselves first, our families second, and don't give a flip what anyone else thinks. We must live our lives with freedom to choose what we believe and stand tall against an army of good intentioned home teachers, bishops, and missionaries who will never let us remain inactive. We must push forward for we are like the armies of Helaman, we have been taught in our youth. We will be the lords broken down former members, who know the truth!

Im already doing some of these with special diet needs, special clothing needs, and AI disease.

There's this family I knew in a previous ward that I think about frequently. They hardly ever came. Were sooooo nice and kind and too busy to have callings. Never bore their testimonies. Showed up for what activities they felt like. Never saw them cleaning the chapel. Lots of wine at their house "for non member friends and family". They have TRs. And they attend their kids' stuff (ordinances/marriages).

I don't know anything but I think they're out or NOM and they just play the game on their terms.

I don't think you get Ex'd for not coming all the time. And the nicer you are about it the less they seem to question you. Again, just my observations of a single family that I hope to emulate soon.

I just have such a hard time keeping my mouth shut. I work very hard at doing the right things and having the right reasons. I see this like I could go over like a feminist in the middle East....

[Wonderment]

Oh my gosh, RR this is HILARIOUS. What a riot. You're talented writer ! I agree with the others- you could easily take over Robert Kirby's column. Thank you for the day brightener. Your gift for humor is awesome. - Wndr.

[Reuben]

Oh my gosh, RR this is HILARIOUS. What a riot. You're talented writer ! I agree with the others- you could easily take over Robert Kirby's column.

Come to think of it, has anyone ever seen those two together?

Anyway, +1! I my brains out.