I/She will be destroyed

[deacon blues]

Joseph Smith History 1:42 says Joseph was told he would be destroyed if he showed anyone the Gold Plates. D&C 132:54 says Emma would be destroyed if she didn't abide the plural marriage commandment. I've often thought of those two verses in conjunction. What does it mean to be destroyed? Death? Annihilation? Son/daughter of Perdition?
Also, is there anything in the history records that would indicate that Emma might have feared for her life, or that she had reason to?

[StarbucksMom]

When I hear this I picture the angel w/ a flaming sword, and I think JS means literally killed/struck to the ground.

[Give It Time]

We touched briefly and in passing on this subject on the JS,/porn addict thread. I'm referring specifically to alas's comments.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2201&start=20

It's not so much that I know of a record of threats, it's more that life threatening situations are an aspect of domestic violence.

Joseph being destroyed, I can see as a statement that could be interpreted as if he couldn't have polygamy, he would kill himself. I hadn't looked at it in this light, but the threat to Emma is very clearly spiritual abuse and I see it as a threat on her life.

Here is a wheel of abuse:


The thing about using abuse to gain power and control is the abuser doesn't stick to one category. There may be favorite categories, but using one means the possibility of using all needs to be on the table.

So, we know that Joseph was abusive. We know he lied, he conned, he had affairs. I consider practically the whole of the D & C to be spiritual abuse. I read of an incident where Joseph literally physically kicked someone out of his home and all the way to the street. That's physical abuse. That's physical abuse meted upon someone not in his household, which means the possibility of news of the event being spread through the town is very high. Yet, Joseph did it and had no fear of facing retaliation or consequences. That's a pretty heavy sense of entitlement.

Other things to consider, we have the whistling and whittling boys and the Danites with their vow of vengeance.

Did Joseph threaten Emma directly? He could have done so verbally, but I think it was just more that she was surrounded by the message.

[alas]

Let's start with the fact that Joseph convinced Emma to run away from her parents and marry him. While not abuse because Emma was of age and agreed, it sets her up for abuse because she cannot turn to her parents for support. In those days, a young woman was little more than her father's property. So, stealing her from her father was something he would never forgive. She didn't even ask her father's permission or blessing. So, she is permanently estranged from her parents.

One of the things under social isolation is isolating her from her family.

To say he had no chance of marrying her, without isolating her from her family is proven false by the fact that Isaac Hales gave Joseph a chance to prove himself. After they were married, he basically told Joseph to stop the money digging and become a farmer and work for a living like normal people. That didn't last.

But back up, all Joseph had to do to win Emma's hand was stop being a con man. From the stories we have, Emma's father doted on her and wanted only what was best for her. If Joseph had an ounce of honesty in him, Issac would not have stood in the way. But Isaac saw through the man's con. Which was the kind of challenge Joseph loved, steal the daughter of a man who saw him as a crook. Joseph loved challenges that proved his ability to get anything he wanted. Look at how he went after the wives of his most faithful followers. It was the challenge of getting anything he wanted. Anything. The bigger the challenge, the more he loved the game.

He also isolated Emma from her friends. He did that by getting them to switch their loyalty from her to him. He seduced them. Her foster daughters, he seduced them. The counselors in her Relief Society, he seduced them. There was not one friend Emma had who was not either seduced by Joseph, or driven off by Joseph.

The chart says "using scrpiture against her". Joseph didn't just use scripture against her, he made up scripture to control her.

As discussed in the other thread, we have evidence that Joseph hit her, at least once. Well, in my working with abused women, the rule is that if he hits her in front of others, he has been hitting her in private for years.

Why did Emma put up with it. Read the literature on why women stay. She felt it was all her fault. God was on Joseph's side. He was the prophet. He could have told her that up was down and she would have had to believe him.

Now, there is the possibility that she did not really believe he was a prophet, but everyone in her social group did. She was isolated. No one would have sided with her if she had decided to leave him. No one. Her only ally was also her captor. When a person's very life depends on someone who abuses them, they develope Stockholm syndrome. Or battered wife syndrome.

Did she love Joseph? Not like the books claim. I mean, come on, I loved my abusive father, but I hated him too. The attachment that abused wives have is not love, so much as it is a mixture of love and Stockholm syndrome.

[Give It Time]

I thought it very interesting that when Emma ran out to see Joseph's body, she said,

"Joseph! Have they killed you, at last?"

Could be interpreted very lovingly.

Could be interpreted that she's glad to be rid of him.

Depends on your perspective.

[moksha]

It could perhaps mean that Emma would be assassinated or that a smear campaign would target her. It was a subtle reminder to follow the Prophet or else.

[Thoughtful]

I believe the Hale family reconciled with JS and EHS and helped them later. I agree with the perspective that Isaac saw through JS as a manipulator.

Also, there's a record of JS dealing "harshly" with Emma that implies physical abuse.

If I recall, Emma was the one casting people from the house in the night/ winter. Such as Fanny Alger and Eliza R Snow.

[alas]

I believe the Hale family reconciled with JS and EHS and helped them later. I agree with the perspective that Isaac saw through JS as a manipulator.

Also, there's a record of JS dealing "harshly" with Emma that implies physical abuse.

If I recall, Emma was the one casting people from the house in the night/ winter. Such as Fanny Alger and Eliza R Snow.

The fact that Emma was the one throwing people out of the house AFTER she found out Joseph was sleeping with them is used to make Emma sound like the bad person. Joseph used it to make Emma the villain, and take to focus off his own behavior. So, remember she caught Fanny in the barn with Joseph. She had treated Fanny as a daughter, and felt betrayed by both her and Joseph. And didn't she catch Joseph coming out of Elisa's bedroom, and knew he had been with he? Again, she had trusted Elisa as a friend and she is repaid by Elisa having sex with her husband. As the wife, she was not the owner of the house, so she could not kick Joseph out and the only way of saving her marriage is to get rid of the other woman, even if it was the middle of the night. Boo hoo, poor other woman. If Elisa had not wanted to get kicked out of Emma's house, maybe she should have had the loyality to Emma to tell Joseph to take a flying leap. But these stories are twisted to make Emma the villain?

That is another way that Joseph abused Emma. He made her the villain in the stories of how he betrayed her with her best friend. Think about that bit of gas lighting. Emma was so cruel as to throw people out on the street in the middle of a cold winter night. No, Joseph was so rotten as to sleep with his wife's best friend right in Emma's house. Let's keep it straight as to who was being cruel and who was acting in self defense and out of a sense of betrayal.

[Give It Time]

I believe the Hale family reconciled with JS and EHS and helped them later. I agree with the perspective that Isaac saw through JS as a manipulator.

Also, there's a record of JS dealing "harshly" with Emma that implies physical abuse.

If I recall, Emma was the one casting people from the house in the night/ winter. Such as Fanny Alger and Eliza R Snow.

The fact that Emma was the one throwing people out of the house AFTER she found out Joseph was sleeping with them is used to make Emma sound like the bad person. Joseph used it to make Emma the villain, and take to focus off his own behavior. So, remember she caught Fanny in the barn with Joseph. She had treated Fanny as a daughter, and felt betrayed by both her and Joseph. And didn't she catch Joseph coming out of Elisa's bedroom, and knew he had been with he? Again, she had trusted Elisa as a friend and she is repaid by Elisa having sex with her husband. As the wife, she was not the owner of the house, so she could not kick Joseph out and the only way of saving her marriage is to get rid of the other woman, even if it was the middle of the night. Boo hoo, poor other woman. If Elisa had not wanted to get kicked out of Emma's house, maybe she should have had the loyality to Emma to tell Joseph to take a flying leap. But these stories are twisted to make Emma the villain?

That is another way that Joseph abused Emma. He made her the villain in the stories of how he betrayed her with her best friend. Think about that bit of gas lighting. Emma was so cruel as to throw people out on the street in the middle of a cold winter night. No, Joseph was so rotten as to sleep with his wife's best friend right in Emma's house. Let's keep it straight as to who was being cruel and who was acting in self defense and out of a sense of betrayal.

This sort of twisting things around as is described here is so, so normal and continues today.

[MoPag]

<snip>

If Elisa had not wanted to get kicked out of Emma's house, maybe she should have had the loyality to Emma to tell Joseph to take a flying leap.

<snip>

I wonder how realistic it was would have been for Eliza to tell Joseph to take a flying leap. Maybe at first she did and then he just wore her down. We don't know what he said to manipulate her. Maybe he threatened her. She doesn't strike me as some who liked to sleep around. I guess what I'm trying to say is that even though all of JS's wives were "the other women" they were probably also victims too.

[alas]

<snip>

If Elisa had not wanted to get kicked out of Emma's house, maybe she should have had the loyality to Emma to tell Joseph to take a flying leap.

<snip>

I wonder how realistic it was would have been for Eliza to tell Joseph to take a flying leap. Maybe at first she did and then he just wore her down. We don't know what he said to manipulate her. Maybe he threatened her. She doesn't strike me as some who liked to sleep around. I guess what I'm trying to say is that even though all of JS's wives were "the other women" they were probably also victims too.

Oh yes, I do think that all of Joseph's "wives" we're also victimized by him. As I was writing that, kind of in defense of Emma, I wondered to myself what kind of pressure he had to put on the women. Consider that very few of the women he approached were able to tell him "no" and the ones who did, he made life miserable for them because of it. From Emms's perspective, sh apparently expected women to tell him "no". But from the "wives" perspective, it was probably very difficult. Consider what he told some of them, that he would be destroyed by that angel with a sword. This is one abuse tactic. "I don't want to do this, but my life is threatened." My daughter had a boy friend use it on her. "I will kill myself if you break up with me." As he was stalking her and had used physical force to get her to have sex with him, but she couldn't bring herself to call it rape. This is one abuse tactic that is quite common because no one wants a death on their conscience. He also send the "making up scripture" tactic on his "wife" victims. And he used his power in the community against those foolish enough to say "no". So, just how much choice did Eliza or Fanny, or the Partrige girls really have once Joseph set his lust on them? I don't think they really had much choice. Joseph was good at manipulating people. If seduction and his charm didn't work, he used threats and social pressure.

But again, let's put the blame where it really belongs, on Joseph for his abusive tactics.

[Hagoth]

I think it is a very effective non-specific term that leaves it up to the receiver's imagination to run wild with possible consequences. It can evoke both fear (what your disobedience will bring upon yourself) and guilt (what your disobedience will bring upon me).

[Give It Time]

Sheds a whole new light on do what the prophet tells you to do, now doesn't it?

[deacon blues]

<snip>

If Elisa had not wanted to get kicked out of Emma's house, maybe she should have had the loyality to Emma to tell Joseph to take a flying leap.

<snip>

I wonder how realistic it was would have been for Eliza to tell Joseph to take a flying leap. Maybe at first she did and then he just wore her down. We don't know what he said to manipulate her. Maybe he threatened her. She doesn't strike me as some who liked to sleep around. I guess what I'm trying to say is that even though all of JS's wives were "the other women" they were probably also victims too.

Oh yes, I do think that all of Joseph's "wives" we're also victimized by him. As I was writing that, kind of in defense of Emma, I wondered to myself what kind of pressure he had to put on the women. Consider that very few of the women he approached were able to tell him "no" and the ones who did, he made life miserable for them because of it. From Emms's perspective, sh apparently expected women to tell him "no". But from the "wives" perspective, it was probably very difficult. Consider what he told some of them, that he would be destroyed by that angel with a sword. This is one abuse tactic. "I don't want to do this, but my life is threatened." My daughter had a boy friend use it on her. "I will kill myself if you break up with me." As he was stalking her and had used physical force to get her to have sex with him, but she couldn't bring herself to call it rape. This is one abuse tactic that is quite common because no one wants a death on their conscience. He also send the "making up scripture" tactic on his "wife" victims. And he used his power in the community against those foolish enough to say "no". So, just how much choice did Eliza or Fanny, or the Partrige girls really have once Joseph set his lust on them? I don't think they really had much choice. Joseph was good at manipulating people. If seduction and his charm didn't work, he used threats and social pressure.

But again, let's put the blame where it really belongs, on Joseph for his abusive tactics.

"I will kill myself if you break up with me" = "An angel will kill me if you don't marry me" Yeah, it's Abuse with a capital A.

[Rob4Hope]

Grant Palmer said many times Emma thought the "be destroyed" meant she would be killed.

[deacon blues]

Grant Palmer said many times Emma thought the "be destroyed" meant she would be killed.

I believe this is likely. It is so close to being threatened with death, it's abuse, even if it doesn't happen. In other words, Joseph and/or his god, abused Emma.

[Hagoth]

But she did die... eventually. And Joseph WAS destroyed. Is "angel with a drawn sword" just a metaphor for an angry mob sent to kill Joseph because some of those girls did turn him down? Damn those girls for killing the prophet!

[Rob4Hope]

But she did die... eventually. And Joseph WAS destroyed. Is "angel with a drawn sword" just a metaphor for an angry mob sent to kill Joseph because some of those girls did turn him down? Damn those girls for killing the prophet!

After hearing various pod-casts, including Bill Reels on the Nauvoo Expositor--and the fact that all of the claims were accurate; and also after hearing the remarks of Grant Palmer and his report of what William Law said, it amazes me how the church demonized all who would oppose "Their Prophet"....even to stretching the truth or flat out telling lies and vilifying people.

[Thoughtful]

I don't know that Emma needs to be defended from my comments. Certainly I'm not defending Joseph. Just voting for accurate reporting.

In my opinion, it's likely that Emma did cast girls out, and also that she had more social capital in the situation than they did, but that JS had more than Emma.

JS was manipulating, coercing, and abusing every woman he married, no doubt.

The JS Papers letter that was recently discussed on YOP with JS promising in his own hand that the wife would have salvation for her entire posterity, whether they suck with the gospel or not, demonstrates a level of quid pro quo manipulation that is sickening. Sex for salvation, sacrifice yourself or risk the damnation of not only you.... but your entire family.

Plus the social suicide of going against the prophet with a track record for throwing women's reputations under the bus if they dare refuse.

It's abuse and coercion on top of abuse and coercion...

[deacon blues]

Another twist to this. I was reading a speech Joseph gave on 3/10/1844. He (my paraphrasing) says he was praying to be delivered from his enemies, and almost immediately Gov. Reynolds, Governor of Missouri in 1844, committed suicide. Smith implies from this, to his audience, that God strikes down Joseph's/the Churches enemies. This is weird and/or threatening. I think it is both.