Bill Reel on IOT - Discussion could benefit from Folwer Faith Stages

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oliver_denom
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Bill Reel on IOT - Discussion could benefit from Folwer Faith Stages

Post by oliver_denom »

I just listened to the latest Infant's on Thrones where they had Bill Reel as a guest. What I found fascinating about the discussion is how closely the descriptions of the church and transition so closely matched Fowler's faith stages. Fowler's "Stages of Faith" provides a framework, which I think, makes the process more comprehensible.

Bill, from what I could gather, provided two personal reasons for why Mormonism has been beneficial to him:

1) It's a crucible against which he was able to further develop as a human being
2) The community provides a feeling of safety and security, both materially and spiritually (for lack of a better word)

He then makes the argument, and this is my summary, that these same benefits still exist for others and that his role is to help shepherd them through the process. As far as developing as a human being, he explicitly mentions the ability to recognize one's own authority as equal or superior to the church's institutional authority. Both these ideas are very close to Fowler's definition of a transition away from Stage 3, through 4, and into 5. However, the sticking point of safety and the nagging feelings of self doubt, maybe stemming from a time in adolescence when he felt he was on the wrong path, has resulted in a sticking in place passed the time one may have already moved on. Because the LDS church is a stage 3 religion, and for it to move into a different stage would require much more than a few tweaks to doctrine. It would require a paradigm shift en masse equivalent to the personal shift many of us have experienced within ourselves.
Stages of Faith, Chapter 18. Stage 3 Synthetic-Conventional Faith wrote: ...in the interpersonal world of Stage 3 faith their expectations help us focus ourselves and assemble our commitments to values, but there is always the danger of becoming permanently dependent upon and subject to what Sharon Parks calls the "tyranny of the they." For Stage 3, with its beginnings in adolescence, authority is located externally to the self. It resides in the interpersonally available "they" or in the certified incumbents of leadership roles in institutions. This is not to deny that adolescents make choices or that they develop strong feelings and commitments regarding their values and behavioral norms. It is to say, however, that despite their genuine feelings of having made choices and commitments, a truer reading is that their values and self-images, mediated by the significant others in their lives, have largely chosen them. And in their (the youths') choosing they have, in the main, clarified and ratified those images and values which have chosen them.
Fowler refers to Stage 3 as an adolescent phenomenon because its at that time that this type of "faith" (I think worldview is a better word) is developed. We see others seeing us and become aware that they can perceive us in a way that is different than how we perceive ourselves. We begin to seek out role models and authority figures for the purpose of finding acceptance and doing "the right" things. This is what really makes Mormonism relevant for many people who have a difficult time navigating or finding acceptance and identity in the world. And as the danger for becoming dependent on the "tyranny of the they", this is a stage that many people never leave and remain in for the rest of their lives.

I conceive a Stage 3 religious community like a group which automatically accepts all comers, which is attractive, as long as they are willing and able to conform to specific requirements. By conforming to an authority and accepting a collection of "right answers" and "right living", you gain access to an extended family. Stage 3 relationships are therefore defined by how well an individual is able to conform to the checklist. If one person is able to rattle off a list of beliefs and practices, and then sees that your list of beliefs and practices match, then the bonding is instant. This faith stage is un-reflective of itself, meaning that you don't reflect on why particular items are on the list and others are not, because that isn't the point. The point is to conform to the list and then connect to others doing the same thing. Reflecting on the contents and there reasons is seen as alien and strange. At worst, its seen as blasphemous because those questions are and must forever remain unknown. To reflect on those things would bring about the disturbances of Stage 4, and what we usually associate with a faith transition.

If you look at what Bill describes in his own life, then he says that Mormonism worked for him between the ages of 17 and 27. Fowler indicates that Stage 3 usually encompasses the ages of 13 to 18. Stage 4 is most commonly found in a person's 20's, and Stage 5 in a person's 30's. While it is certainly true that many people within Mormonism make these faith transitions and remain active, they continue to do so without upsetting the Stage 3 nature of the religion itself. It is authoritarian, unreflective, and obsessed with providing models for conformity. In contrast, a Stage 5 religion would be like what you would find in a Unitarian Universalist congregation. A person who has made a transition, or is in the process of doing so, may find a way to remain within the church but the organization is never going to provide the type of environment they'd prefer or even flourish with. Questions and doubts are viewed as evil and disruptive to the Stage 3 project, and anyone promoting non-conformity is essentially attacking the very foundation of what the faith is constructed on. From this perspective, one could pose this hypothetical: "How long would it take for Mormonism to evolve into the type of church embodied by Unitarian Univerasalism?" Will remaining within Mormonism, in any way, push the church in that direction?

I think the answers to these questions are: "Probably a lot longer than me or my children will be a live" and "No". What we're looking for in a religion or a community are not minor tweaks, they are massive and difficult shifts in perspective and worldview. We can, for example, become indignant that our black and white television won't display color, then continue to watch it anyway while grumbling and shouting, but our angst won't make a damned bit of difference. The damn thing won't display color because that ability doesn't exist within its structure. If you want color, then you need a new television.
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Rob4Hope
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Re: Bill Reel on IOT - Discussion could benefit from Folwer Faith Stages

Post by Rob4Hope »

OD...loved the summary and post.

I know Bill, and I wonder if he is gunna get "disciplined" any time soon. He is slowly working his way out. I know he feels frustrated with what he encounters over and over.

I didn't hit my full transitional until I was like 45,...and I confess when I read some of Fowler's stuff, I wondered if maybe I was defective. Why did it take me so long?...

I cut myself slack because I also realize Fowler's stages are a "framework"--there are differences, unique pathways, and a whole lot of STUFF in there; faith transitions are HARD IMHO, for everyone--and you can't just say one-size fits all.

I have, upon reflection, concluded just how strongly the LDS church fosters a "stage 3" mentality: everything is geared at reinforcing that. You have the constant harping on scripture study, tithing, temple attendance, service, ... etc. They all have an associated common denominator--indoctrination. You are warned and frightened, even threatened, to avoid all non-correlated literature. You are fed everything, told that revelation is always superior to "science", and that the Q15 are the pure sources of what God's will and revelations are.

The source of truth is deferring to the Q15 authority in all things. "Follow the prophet[s], he knows the way"...

I didn't know there was anything out there until I was in my 40s. When my marriage went to hell and I started asking real questions. When I started that, I developed a sense of discomfort. Why (I would ask) are the answers not there?...and when I ask, I'm told to just have faith?

Whole thing pinwheeled into an avalanche of turmoil, frustration, and eventual rebellion. I didn't just leave man,...I RAN!

It hurt. like bad.
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Re: Bill Reel on IOT - Discussion could benefit from Folwer Faith Stages

Post by Corsair »

oliver_denom wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:55 amFrom this perspective, one could pose this hypothetical: "How long would it take for Mormonism to evolve into the type of church embodied by Unitarian Univerasalism?" Will remaining within Mormonism, in any way, push the church in that direction?

I think the answers to these questions are: "Probably a lot longer than me or my children will be a live" and "No".
You have tapped into a one of my distinct disagreements with apologists of all stripes. Apologists like Scott Gordon of FairMormon, and more pastoral apologists like Richard Bushman and Tyrell Givens display a distinct patience with the institutional LDS church. They see most of the problems and are among the most vocal proponents of understanding the very human nature of prophets. But they urge forgiveness and patience upon people that have been harmed or are simply annoyed with the problems with the LDS church. The teach the virtue of being Christlike and charitable towards LDS leaders and culture that are doing the best they can even when it continues a long trend of hurting many people that do not fit the LDS ideal.

I will grant that some things are getting better. But the changes feel so anemic compared with shifts in the wider culture. Yes, the Mormon and Gay website is available, but the life choices for LGBT individuals are so narrowly circumscribed. Yes, a 1978 revelation did correct a glaring racial divide, but explaining how it came about and persisted for so long was not explained in any satisfying way. I felt some confidence that an incident like the September Six could not occur today, but then John Dehlin and Kay Kelly were excommunicated.

Why would I want to wait around for this organization to "improve" when there is no indication that it will be to my liking? Compounding this problem, I will probably not live long enought to enjoy such a change. This problem felt magnified in Bill Reel's recent podcast on Spiritual Trauma in Mormonism. After listening to his deeply emotional message I was wondering how long Bill will be sticking around. At some point leadership roulette is going to spin up a leader that does not appreciate Bill Reel's ideas and pull Bill's temple recommend. I truly wish Bill all the best, but I am watching his podcasts wondering how he will follow up.
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Re: Bill Reel on IOT - Discussion could benefit from Folwer Faith Stages

Post by Rob4Hope »

Corsair wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:59 am This problem felt magnified in Bill Reel's recent podcast on Spiritual Trauma in Mormonism. After listening to his deeply emotional message I was wondering how long Bill will be sticking around. At some point leadership roulette is going to spin up a leader that does not appreciate Bill Reel's ideas and pull Bill's temple recommend. I truly wish Bill all the best, but I am watching his podcasts wondering how he will follow up.
I can't help but think Bill is on the way out. He has moved a long way towards that. He once told me he believed at least sections of the testimony narrative because for it to NOT be true, lots of people would have to be "duped". I asked him recently if he still felt that way, and he candidly said as he is studying more about this "second sight" and stuff like that, he is not even remotely as sure.

He is on the way out. He will be OK...he has all kinds of friends down there in St.George....

I appreciate him. He has been kind to me.
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Re: Bill Reel on IOT - Discussion could benefit from Folwer Faith Stages

Post by Ghost »

I listened to the Mormon Discussion podcast for the first time just the other day, and it happened to be the "Spiritual Trauma" episode just because that was the latest at the time. Today, I listened to the Infants on Thrones one.

I appreciated the relentless assault on "middle way" Mormonism that made up a good part of the IOT episode. I would appreciate having my own approach challenged directly in that way, though maybe not as part of a recorded discussion intended for many others to hear.

I liked Reel's emphasis on making an effort to tell one's own story and resisting the way others create a narrative that fits their views. Though I'm not sure that this is something that can be successfully overcome in most cases, in religion or otherwise.

For me, even with frameworks such as Fowler's book (which I found insightful), I think I would have a difficult time formulating my own "true" narrative should someone care to try to understand it. Even as I consider my own motivations for doing certain things, I can't help but think that I am at least in part not representing everything accurately even to myself, if that makes any sense.
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Re: Bill Reel on IOT - Discussion could benefit from Folwer Faith Stages

Post by document »

The episode could have been an hour shorter.

I agree with Matt, get out. Don't stay and try to change, get out.

However, the viewpoint is too simplistic if the consequence of leaving is too high. There are many on this board who remain because the alternative is divorce. I've been there. The day my then-wife was ready, we ran for it. I would have run immediately if my wife and children were not there and the church holding "eternal marriage" over our head.

So, I tried middle way as an alternative.

The ending of the podcast was immensely frustrating. The things that he listed as "unique" to Mormonism as a reason to stay are offered by every single bloody church out there. Heck, even if it isn't a church, community is built and people give meals to each other. He was merely repeating a constant lie that is propagated by the LDS church that they are the only ones who can help you move or put a casserole on the counter top. Nope, everyone does that, Mormonism would be unique if it were a church that _didn't_ do that.
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Re: Bill Reel on IOT - Discussion could benefit from Folwer Faith Stages

Post by Newme »

After listening to the 1st half of the clip below, I realized that so often when I’ve brought up Fowler’s stages, TBMs and Atheists (who you'd think would need such a map most) reject it as either anti-Mormon or BS. :lol: So essentially stage 5’s seem to be the only ones who appreciate this theory.
https://youtu.be/fskgB8v-gQs

One thing suggested in the clip is that if you try to push someone to the next stage when they’re not ready, it’ll backfire & they’ll cling stronger to their current or even past stage. Yet, the way I found my way out of stage 3 was with a push - someone telling me I was in a cult, and researching to try (unsuccessfully) to prove him wrong. What do you guys think? Pushing gently - good or not?
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Re: Bill Reel on IOT - Discussion could benefit from Folwer Faith Stages

Post by oliver_denom »

Newme wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:41 am After listening to the 1st half of the clip below, I realized that so often when I’ve brought up Fowler’s stages, TBMs and Atheists (who you'd think would need such a map most) reject it as either anti-Mormon or BS. :lol: So essentially stage 5’s seem to be the only ones who appreciate this theory.
https://youtu.be/fskgB8v-gQs

One thing suggested in the clip is that if you try to push someone to the next stage when they’re not ready, it’ll backfire & they’ll cling stronger to their current or even past stage. Yet, the way I found my way out of stage 3 was with a push - someone telling me I was in a cult, and researching to try (unsuccessfully) to prove him wrong. What do you guys think? Pushing gently - good or not?
I don't think you can plan what begins a faith transition, it's just so individual. For example, a friend of mine began his transition after leaving Utah and being asked by a never Mormon to explain the Book of Mormon. He rattled off his missionary spiel and then the person he was speaking to just cocked her head to the side with a quizzical look and said, "Really? You actually believe that?". That was what started the whole thing. His mission was in South America where nothing he ever said was challenged, it was simply accepted. After telling the same story a thousand times, this one person expressing disbelief was enough for him to begin reflecting on his own faith. She didn't even argue with him, just kind of gave him a "That's weird" expression and moved on.

I remember a similar experience many years ago when an acquaintance of mine just asked me the question "Why?" as in "Why would you even want to believe that?" It's questions like that, questions that cause a person to reflect on beliefs that were being treated as given that moves people. When and how that occurs, I don't know, but I think age is a big part of it. Anyone in their 20's to 30's should be able to handle it. Anyone younger and their cognitively unable to grapple with some of the concepts. Folks who are older can do it, but it becomes increasingly more difficult.
“You want to know something? We are still in the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages--they haven't ended yet.” - Vonnegut

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Re: Bill Reel on IOT - Discussion could benefit from Folwer Faith Stages

Post by Newme »

Thanks, Oliver. I imagine age has a lot to do with it. That makes me wonder about my kids. My son just told me for the first time that he’s not going to go on a mission & that he never really wanted to - people just expected it of him. He wants to get his schooling done to get his career going & then have the means to help in humanitarian ways. He seems like a mix of stages - or like spiral dynamics.
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Re: Bill Reel on IOT - Discussion could benefit from Folwer Faith Stages

Post by oliver_denom »

Newme wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:30 pm Thanks, Oliver. I imagine age has a lot to do with it. That makes me wonder about my kids. My son just told me for the first time that he’s not going to go on a mission & that he never really wanted to - people just expected it of him. He wants to get his schooling done to get his career going & then have the means to help in humanitarian ways. He seems like a mix of stages - or like spiral dynamics.
I think that's great that he has a rough outline of what he wants to do and feels comfortable enough expressing it. My house growing up wasn't a place of open discussion. One of my concerns is going too far in the opposite direction. I want to provide lots of structure and guidance, but I don't want it to be so rigid that our entire lives fall apart if one piece gets moved out of place. My approach is more along the lines of, "Here's all that's possible in life. Get a feel in high school for the direction you want to go, and then start planning." I believe that order is an important part of happiness, but only if its the result of some sort of free will. Make decisions and build.

You mentioned the Jordan B. Peterson lectures, and I've really enjoyed listening to his bible series. One of the things that stuck with me was his discussion of Genesis where he states that the first thing god does is make order out of the chaos. To me that seems like an essential activity. You could make order out of chaos by joining in with an organization like Mormonism, which is extremely efficient at bringing order to people's lives. You could also join less rigid organizations for the same purpose. Or you can mix and match, and take the even more difficult step of bringing your own order to life, which is really forking hard. I had the opportunity to listen to a local Rabbi speak a couple of weeks ago, and he said that to be created in god's image means that unlike the angels and all other creatures, humanity possessed free will. That's the thing that god and man have in common that isn't shared with anything else in all of creation. That made me reflect back on Genesis. If the first action of god is to separate light from dark and bring order to the chaos, then maybe that's also the first action of humanity both socially and individually.
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Re: Bill Reel on IOT - Discussion could benefit from Folwer Faith Stages

Post by Jeffret »

oliver_denom wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:11 am You mentioned the Jordan B. Peterson lectures, and I've really enjoyed listening to his bible series. One of the things that stuck with me was his discussion of Genesis where he states that the first thing god does is make order out of the chaos. To me that seems like an essential activity. You could make order out of chaos by joining in with an organization like Mormonism, which is extremely efficient at bringing order to people's lives.
This is a very intriguing idea. I don't know what Peterson means by it exactly. At first glance, it seems like this is one of those virtues or goals that can be good or can be very bad. Perhaps it is even one of those that isn't necessarily good on its own. I don't know. It does seem like it's a generally a deep-seated drive in humans, yielding much good, but also yielding tremendous bad. As you note, Mormonism is extremely good at creating order in people's lives, but I would argue that often isn't a good thing.

As I frequently do, one of the first things I do with a new idea is to google it to try and see what others make of it, how they use it, or how they clarify it. In this case, the results were interesting, though probably not meaningful. The first page of results contained a number of odd results. Primarily the term "order out of chaos" is a principal phrase in 33rd degree Freemasonry. It shows up in a number of conspiracy theory things. After that, the term is mostly used in a business sense, of organizing business and teams.

One of the things I noticed years ago is that when humans plant things, creating order out of chaos, the plants are all lined up in neat rows, or other specific shapes. Humans tend to create gardens, plantings, etc., that are very well ordered and segregated. Nature doesn't behave that way, at least not to usually human sensibilities. I suppose you could say that nature is well-ordered after the natural order, but to humans, its ordering is often considered overly chaotic. One problem that arises in modern farming and ranching is the reliance on monoculture. Large amounts of the same thing, whether plant or animal, are carefully kept together. This arrangement attracts pests and problems that attack that one variety and encourage them to proliferate. As a result, other things have to be introduced, sometimes quite harsh, to maintain that order. Some other types of farming are less monoculture based, but they usually require smaller implementations. For example, French intensive gardening purposely mixes different types together for higher aggregate yield in smaller spaces.

One of the things that has frustrated modern scientists (perhaps better described as postmodern, as I described in the other thread) is how fundamental the chaos is in some areas. Our desire to impose order met with the fundamental chaos of the universe. Quantum Mechanics is chaotic. The nature of the atom is itself chaotic. The planetary model of the atom, which everyone learned in school, is bogus. The motion and behavior of the subcomponents of the atom can only be described probabilistically. Of course, then there is Chaos Theory itself, which describes the fundamentally chaotic nature of many physical phenomena. As I quoted on a different thread recently, there is an effort by some to impose a platonic duality ideal on human sex differentiation, which is refuted by the chaos that nature actually presents.

Perhaps if, as Peterson states, the first thing god does is to make order out of chaos, that is clear evidence of how we have created god in our image. Are we really just demonstrating how important order is to us and then imbuing that characteristic into our ideal? Especially in light of what we know of how the world, and ourselves, actually came into being?

I wonder if this is more of a Western trait. We certainly see order imposed by humans in different types and degrees around the world. In some ways, some of the Eastern religions seem to be more concerned with accepting things as they are rather than imposing our own demand for order onto them. However, then we see things like the incredibly precise Bonsai creations in Japan. Or the incredibly precise sand mandalas that I've watched Tibetan Buddhist monks laboriously create. And then purposefully destroy to demonstrate impermanence, disorder, and whatever else can be interpreted.

An interesting idea, this juxtaposition of chaos and order. I don't know what to make of it.
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Re: Bill Reel on IOT - Discussion could benefit from Folwer Faith Stages

Post by oliver_denom »

Jeffret wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:08 am One of the things I noticed years ago is that when humans plant things, creating order out of chaos, the plants are all lined up in neat rows, or other specific shapes. Humans tend to create gardens, plantings, etc., that are very well ordered and segregated. Nature doesn't behave that way, at least not to usually human sensibilities. I suppose you could say that nature is well-ordered after the natural order, but to humans, its ordering is often considered overly chaotic...
I wonder if this is more of a Western trait. We certainly see order imposed by humans in different types and degrees around the world. In some ways, some of the Eastern religions seem to be more concerned with accepting things as they are rather than imposing our own demand for order onto them. However, then we see things like the incredibly precise Bonsai creations in Japan. Or the incredibly precise sand mandalas that I've watched Tibetan Buddhist monks laboriously create. And then purposefully destroy to demonstrate impermanence, disorder, and whatever else can be interpreted.
I think there are two ideas here, one ontological and the other psychological. There's an interesting idea that crops up in Mormonism, and I believe it's this way in Judaism as well but I'm not sure, where the symbol of the walled garden is seen as an obstacle to human well being. It's a place that's perfectly ordered, and its inhabitants are safe, but absent some sort of chaos / death, there's nothing there to challenge and there's no opportunity to grow. Happiness isn't possible because there isn't any sadness. It's almost as if the garden metaphor is laying out one possible extreme, where the unmade state of the world before god organizes it is the other. Life and happiness, it seems, is in the middle where the world is ordered enough to be predictable and inhabitable, but not so ordered as to remove all challenge.

So from an ontological point of view, we could say that existence is only possible under a balanced set of circumstance. Human thriving may or may not be a positive thing from all perspectives, but it does seem that from an evolutionary perspective, unless we destroy ourselves, adapting to all types of extreme conditions, as general adapters using intelligence, and making order seems to be a successful strategy.

But I mostly look at this from a psychological perspective. There's a certain human drive toward routine that helps create the illusion of order in an otherwise chaotic system. If we can make life predictable, then we can make plans, and if we can make plans, then we can make the future better than the present. It's that sort of optimism that I find essential to human thriving. When life is unpredictable, when there is too much chaos such that any planning is futile, then life becomes a constant and traumatic stress. Where I've seen Mormonism succeed for converts is when someone's life is so chaotic and without direction, it's as if they were drowning. I believe my father was this way when he joined, so I've got a biased perspective there. He grew up in real poverty, was neglected and physically abused by rarely present parents, and he had to fight his way out of the slums. What met him in the collegiate world, this was the late 60's early 70's, was the sexual revolution, drug culture, Vietnam war, and the general collapse of trust between citizens and their government. He had little direction, no traditions to hold onto, and no guidance. When he got married and had his first kid, some sort of order and meaning became an obsession. That's what Mormonism gave him, an anchor.

Where Mormonism fails is by making itself out to be a one size fits all solution, and working overtime to conform people to the bureaucracy. It goes too far on the order spectrum, and instead of the promotion of human thriving, you end up with a large degree of infantalism and dependence. They are the walled garden. It must look like paradise to those who were naked in the chaos of the world, but for those raised in it, that life saving anchor is more like a millstone around the neck.
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Re: Bill Reel on IOT - Discussion could benefit from Folwer Faith Stages

Post by Fifi de la Vergne »

This is such a fascinating, insightful discussion
oliver_denom wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:47 amWhere I've seen Mormonism succeed for converts is when someone's life is so chaotic and without direction, it's as if they were drowning. I believe my father was this way when he joined, so I've got a biased perspective there. He grew up in real poverty, was neglected and physically abused by rarely present parents, and he had to fight his way out of the slums. What met him in the collegiate world, this was the late 60's early 70's, was the sexual revolution, drug culture, Vietnam war, and the general collapse of trust between citizens and their government. He had little direction, no traditions to hold onto, and no guidance. When he got married and had his first kid, some sort of order and meaning became an obsession. That's what Mormonism gave him, an anchor.
This was me as a young adult when I joined the church. Life had been utterly chaotic and the order and purpose that Mormonism infused into my life literally felt like it saved my life. I still feel like I gained more than I lost from my 30 years in the church, although I also recognize that my experience is my own.
oliver_denom wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:47 amI think there are two ideas here, one ontological and the other psychological. There's an interesting idea that crops up in Mormonism, and I believe it's this way in Judaism as well but I'm not sure, where the symbol of the walled garden is seen as an obstacle to human well being. It's a place that's perfectly ordered, and its inhabitants are safe, but absent some sort of chaos / death, there's nothing there to challenge and there's no opportunity to grow. Happiness isn't possible because there isn't any sadness. It's almost as if the garden metaphor is laying out one possible extreme, where the unmade state of the world before god organizes it is the other. Life and happiness, it seems, is in the middle where the world is ordered enough to be predictable and inhabitable, but not so ordered as to remove all challenge.
I've thought a lot about the Adam & Eve myth as an allegory of the life cycle -- where it really is ideal for us to be born and nurtured in innocence and order and under careful supervision until we reach that point where we start to make our own decisions and make the leap of choosing something that's outside the rules we've been living under to that point. Growth demands that we start to make our own choices and live with the consequences, but in order to successfully navigate that leap from being innocent to being accountable for our own choices it is really helpful (if not absolutely necessary) that we begin with an ordered, structured environment that gives us the secure foundation to build on.
oliver_denom wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:47 amWhere Mormonism fails is by making itself out to be a one size fits all solution, and working overtime to conform people to the bureaucracy. It goes too far on the order spectrum, and instead of the promotion of human thriving, you end up with a large degree of infantalism and dependence. They are the walled garden. It must look like paradise to those who were naked in the chaos of the world, but for those raised in it, that life saving anchor is more like a millstone around the neck.
After 30 years in the church, I started to realize that the constraints I was living my life under were really starting to pinch. I felt like I outgrew the church, and that feeling of wanting to make more of my own decisions, think more of my own thoughts that weren't compatible with church teachings, predated my realization that there were big problems with history, etc.
Joy is the emotional expression of the courageous Yes to one's own true being.
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Re: Bill Reel on IOT - Discussion could benefit from Folwer Faith Stages

Post by Corsair »

This is a really interesting discussion. Can you point out any religions that are obviously advanced to Stage 5? I would be particularly interested in larger Christian denomination as they would be interesting models to work towards. Certainly there is varying support for individuals in Stage 5 faith, but are there organizations that are fundamentally in that Stage 5 "Conjunctive Faith" that Fowler talks about? Is this even possible?
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Re: Bill Reel on IOT - Discussion could benefit from Folwer Faith Stages

Post by Jeffret »

I'm not dismissing or denying the importance of order. Certainly it is a very important aspect of humanity, both individually and socially. As you describe, Oliver, a sufficient degree of order is important us individually as we arrange our lives. Socially, maintaining sufficient order leads to much more stability and general well-being for more people.

My concern is that the pursuit of order must be balanced. If we make it primary virtue, that runs the risk of elevating it beyond what is healthy. If we make it a primary godly characteristic, we elevate it into dangerous territory. On a personal level, the pursuit of order can become an obsession, overwhelming other personal behaviors. The movie, "A Beautiful Mind" demonstrates an extreme example of this, but far less extreme situations exist which still result in an unbalanced or distorted personal life.

From the social, sociological, or political perspective the pursuit of order can have devastating effects on all those who don't fit into the desired order. For the moment, I'm going to forego referencing the blatant, obvious examples so as to avoid breaking a rule (*), or rather invoking it. Let's pick sexism and the role of women in society as our primary area of consideration. At the time the U.S.A. was founded, women had little actual rights. The social order maintained that women had their place and had to persist in it. This worked well for the men, in general, and for the women who managed to readily fit into the demands, those who could marry well and still be allowed to do the things they wanted. For those women who didn't fit into this, who wanted to pursue their own careers, or who didn't have beneficial marriage opportunities, or wanted to pursue "unwomanly" activities, this order could be quite harsh. On the frontier there was at times a greater degree of equality, but overall a woman without a husband could be severely limited in acceptable options.

Over time, as women fought for equality, much of the opposition has been based around the idea that the pursuit of equality disrupts the social order. If we give women this right, this equality, that will result in disorder. Indeed we can see that a strong pursuit for social order is one of the primary tools of oppressors. They want to maintain their advantageous order so they insist on any deviation from it as inherently bad. It is a cudgel with which to beat those who might speak up. As (Mormon) historian Laurel Thatcher Ulrich noted, "Well-behaved women seldom make history". It is only those who deviate from the accepted order who end up being noticeable as we look through history.

The same has always been true in the fight for equality and acceptance of oppressed and marginalized groups. One of the primary charges in African-Americans' efforts for racial equality was that they were getting uppity, that they didn't know their place. It manifests in responses to kneeling football players. You see it constantly in much of the LGBT, etc., related attacks these days, "Why should we have to change to accept them? Why do they insist on changing the order? Can't they accept that there are only two sexes and order requires them be solely attracted to the other?" It's clear that one of the main reasons people fear and attack gays and lesbians, particularly gay men, is that it disrupts the ordered expectations about who is attracted to who and what kinds of relationships can exist. In fact, I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that someone who is strongly aligned with a desire and preference for social order is highly likely to also be prejudiced and attempt to keep down others who might want to change it.

(* Godwin's law doesn't really apply when the subject is validly about those types of discussions. It's about other discussions inevitably veering into that realm. In this case, I think those examples are actually very appropriate.)
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")
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Jeffret
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Re: Bill Reel on IOT - Discussion could benefit from Folwer Faith Stages

Post by Jeffret »

Corsair wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:41 am This is a really interesting discussion. Can you point out any religions that are obviously advanced to Stage 5? I would be particularly interested in larger Christian denomination as they would be interesting models to work towards. Certainly there is varying support for individuals in Stage 5 faith, but are there organizations that are fundamentally in that Stage 5 "Conjunctive Faith" that Fowler talks about? Is this even possible?
In Western-based churches, I think looking to the "U's" would be most productive in this search, Unitarian Universalist, Unity, maybe another one or two. I think there are some branches of Judaism that could qualify. Some of the liberal, more mainline churches could come close, as some people have recently described some of their experiences visiting. Perhaps some forms of Buddhism. Taoism, maybe. I've heard some things that could be interpreted that way from some HIndus.

Keep in mind that the idea wouldn't be to find an institution that is entirely composed of people at Stage 5. What you look for would be a group that would be comfortable accepting people at Stage 5 and in which Stage 5 is kind of the expected natural development for adults. Children certainly wouldn't be expected to be at Stage 5, at least not until nearing adulthood.

If an adult says, "Our church (or our beliefs) are the only way to heaven (etc.)", you're probably looking at Stage 3. If someone says, "They are definitely not the only way to heaven", you're probably looking at Stage 5. If a congregation accepted multiple different possible interpretations and experiences as valid, you'd be looking more at Stage 5.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")
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Re: Bill Reel on IOT - Discussion could benefit from Folwer Faith Stages

Post by Newme »

Corsair wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:41 am This is a really interesting discussion. Can you point out any religions that are obviously advanced to Stage 5? I would be particularly interested in larger Christian denomination as they would be interesting models to work towards. Certainly there is varying support for individuals in Stage 5 faith, but are there organizations that are fundamentally in that Stage 5 "Conjunctive Faith" that Fowler talks about? Is this even possible?
I don't think there is any religion that as an organization specifically works toward in part denying such organization as group thought (which is implied in stage 5). Stage 5, IMO, is all about finding your own way - and going through each philosophy, religion, etc, to see what works and discarding the rest. There are some in "new age" circles who claim to do that, but in reality they, like other religions, demanded strict adherence to certain ideas or practices.
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Re: Bill Reel on IOT - Discussion could benefit from Folwer Faith Stages

Post by Jeffret »

Newme wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:56 am I don't think there is any religion that as an organization specifically works toward in part denying such organization as group thought (which is implied in stage 5). Stage 5, IMO, is all about finding your own way - and going through each philosophy, religion, etc, to see what works and discarding the rest. There are some in "new age" circles who claim to do that, but in reality they, like other religions, demanded strict adherence to certain ideas or practices.
As I read the book, I developed an impression that is a bit different from that. Fowler seemed to be quite clear that there are some faith communities that do aspire to Stage 5 as their general expected outcome. He discusses a bit how a community that focuses on Stage 3 understandings (such as the Mormon church, though he doesn't name it) would expect to contain mostly Stage 3 individuals. On the other hand in a faith community more focused around Stage 5, you would expect to find more individuals at Stage 5. Particularly when discussing his chart about the distribution of stages with the individual's age, Fowler mentions how a teenager in a Stage 5 affirming community might well be at Stage 5, but that his data shows it is fairly unlikely for a teenager to be at Stage 5 in a community that focuses on Stage 3.

It's at this time that I most remember Peggy and wish she was still around. She was fascinated by SoF and had corresponded with Dr. Fowler. When he spoke at Sunstone, she made sure to be in attendance and get him to sign her copy. She was quite happy with that.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")
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Re: Bill Reel on IOT - Discussion could benefit from Folwer Faith Stages

Post by Newme »

oliver_denom wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:11 am
Newme wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:30 pm Thanks, Oliver. I imagine age has a lot to do with it. That makes me wonder about my kids. My son just told me for the first time that he’s not going to go on a mission & that he never really wanted to - people just expected it of him. He wants to get his schooling done to get his career going & then have the means to help in humanitarian ways. He seems like a mix of stages - or like spiral dynamics.
I think that's great that he has a rough outline of what he wants to do and feels comfortable enough expressing it. My house growing up wasn't a place of open discussion. One of my concerns is going too far in the opposite direction. I want to provide lots of structure and guidance, but I don't want it to be so rigid that our entire lives fall apart if one piece gets moved out of place. My approach is more along the lines of, "Here's all that's possible in life. Get a feel in high school for the direction you want to go, and then start planning." I believe that order is an important part of happiness, but only if its the result of some sort of free will. Make decisions and build.
Thanks, your comments are encouraging.
You mentioned the Jordan B. Peterson lectures, and I've really enjoyed listening to his bible series. One of the things that stuck with me was his discussion of Genesis where he states that the first thing god does is make order out of the chaos. To me that seems like an essential activity. You could make order out of chaos by joining in with an organization like Mormonism, which is extremely efficient at bringing order to people's lives. You could also join less rigid organizations for the same purpose. Or you can mix and match, and take the even more difficult step of bringing your own order to life, which is really forking hard. I had the opportunity to listen to a local Rabbi speak a couple of weeks ago, and he said that to be created in god's image means that unlike the angels and all other creatures, humanity possessed free will. That's the thing that god and man have in common that isn't shared with anything else in all of creation. That made me reflect back on Genesis. If the first action of god is to separate light from dark and bring order to the chaos, then maybe that's also the first action of humanity both socially and individually.
I've heard a bit of that lecture. Consciousness stood out to me - as the means of harmonizing chaos and order - specifically the "Word." Fascinating! It's also cool to think of how Moses defined God as I AM that I AM. I believe good mental health involves harmonizing thought and feeling which is done through words - writing or speaking especially. Peterson suggested a good conversation involved a dramatic mix of chaos and order - so that in some ways you can relate, and yet in some ways both learn something new.

Peterson said, "Evil is the force that believes its knowledge is complete." I see this with both TBMs and Atheists - they damn (hold back) themselves because they think they've "arrived" at the "Truth" and there's nothing more to learn. Learning, IMO is part of the joy that we so deeply crave. Yet, we all have some evil - "in each of us is a bit of all of us." So often, it is through evil events that people show how good they are - in helping each other - even risking their lives for perfect strangers. "Opposition in all things" - kind of like yin and yang - it seems that's what God's more about that, than our narrow, subjective ideas of good and order.

Peterson asked why we have choice - and didn't come up with an answer. I've thought about this but I've got more thinking to do. Maybe we need to experience - to feel for ourselves things - in order to expand empathy and awareness. This of course implies life after death - and I believe some type of reincarnation/resurrection - but I don't get hung up on the details.

The chaos/order seems to be a major characteristic of stage 5. It also reminds me of the serenity prayer - accept what you cannot change while courage to change what you can - & wisdom to know the difference. I do go to church (part of the block) - so I suppose it gives some social order - connection. But spiritually, my order is more about my goals. What about you? How do you get a sense of order in your life?
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Re: Bill Reel on IOT - Discussion could benefit from Folwer Faith Stages

Post by Newme »

My guess is that many of us here on NOM are in some degree of stage 4. Just read an interesting quote by Fowler:

“The two essential features of the emergence of Stage 4, then, are the critical distancing from one's previous assumptive value system and the emergence of the executive ego. . . .
We find that sometimes many persons complete half of this double movement, but do not complete the other.”

What does he mean by “executive ego”?
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