Urim and thummim

[StarbucksMom]

First, I'd like to start with a text I received about a month ago from my disaffected son who is a BYU-UT. student. It read:

Son: Hey mom, can you send my insurance info? And today there was a kid in my class named "Thummim." The teacher asked "like the Urim and Thummim?" and the kid said "My brother is Urim."

Me: Shut. Up. You're joking right?

Son: Unfortunately, no.

(true story.)

Anyway, I have been listening to the Hans Mattson Mormon Stories interviews #s 430-434 (highly recommend) and I'm near the end on the actual recording of the "Special fireside for disaffected Swedish LDS" now. I had heard about it, but listening is quite something. I'm actually surprised at how angry I felt hearing them outright lie several times and completely avoid talking about polygamy/polyandry--by saying "Sorry JS wives are a case by case basis so we just don't have time to talk about that tonight."

But of course the question of the plates/translation came up, along with the pictures of JS translating with the plates in front of him. Turley starts going on about how different people have painted pics of the bible according to their interpretation of events, so that's what artists did with the BOM. (Pretty much the whole night was going off on tangents to avoid the real issues.) A Swede speaks up and says (paraphrase) "Ok forget the pictures, what about church teachings of the translation/urim and thummim vs the hat etc" So Turley goes off and says he'll talk about the hat first, saying it was a much better way to translate, and that translation isn't actually translation it's revelation, blah blah. He never really addressed the urim and thummim.

I never actually thought about this issue before, but the church is pretty much outright lying when they put this in their manuals and publications, right? That JS used a "urim and thummim" There is art that shows the plates being found with glasses on Lds.org in this article here: https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and ... &clang=ara
Here is a quote from: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/01/moro ... r?lang=eng
about Moroni telling JS that he would get the urim & thummim for translating the plates:
"He told Joseph of the Urim and Thummim, which had been prepared to help in translating the record. (JS—H 1:34–35)"

And in the lds bible dictionary. we have this direct quote "There is more than one Urim and Thummim, but we are informed that Joseph Smith had the one used by the brother of Jared (Ether 3:22–28; D&C 10:1; 17:1). (See Seer.) A partial description is given in JS—H 1:35. Joseph Smith used it in translating the Book of Mormon and in obtaining other revelations." https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/urim-and-thummim

So, my question is, isn't this proof the church is lying? They say Moroni said the U & T buried with the plates had been prepared for translating the record. Why, like the plates, were they preserved all those centuries and people died and hid in a cave to save them? Then bible dictionary says "there's more than one U & T." If they stopped there, they could say "yeah, JS just chose to use another one." But no, they actually say he had the one from Jared's bro and that he used it in translating the BOM. To me, this is a black and white, provable lie since they now say "it was his own magic rock he found, and we have never hidden this."

I'm sure you all understand ths better than me, but I kind of just thought more about it listening to the Swedish rescue.

[Culper Jr.]

I always wondered as a kid how Oliver attempted to translate the plates, and then later saw them for the first time as a witness.

The translation stuff is one of the rare instances where the church is just outright lying. Usually they couch stuff in this sort of infuriating double speak where they don’t technically lie, but lead you to believe something else.

[Corsair]

I always wondered as a kid how Oliver attempted to translate the plates, and then later saw them for the first time as a witness.

This is yet another silly aspect of LDS history that starts falling apart after a bit of critical thinking. Did Oliver put his face in the hat and subsequently saw nothing at all?

[wtfluff]

So, my question is, isn't this proof the church is lying?

In a word: Yes.

The Corporation will hem and haw (lie), and redirect, and blame "artists" for their "incorrect" rendition of the "translation", and use any other number of excuses.

But the bottom line is: They've attempted to hide the magic rock & hat "translation" for almost 200 years. They've had the magic rock in their possession for almost 200 years, and yet they somehow failed to mention it in any of their correlated material. If Mormonism is "Capital T True" then that rock is literally the most important religious relic in the world, and they've hidden it in a vault for ~200 years. (And continue to do so.)

It's not the only thing they are dishonest about, but it is blatantly obvious to anyone that can apply a tiny bit of rational thinking to this issue, and see that this is an example where the church doesn't live up to their own standards.

This is yet another silly aspect of LDS history that starts falling apart after a bit of critical thinking. Did Oliver put his face in the hat and subsequently saw nothing at all?

Nope. Remember: Oliver was a Dowsing Rod (Rod of Aaron) guy, not a Seer Stone guy. He was literally using a magic stick to "translate". (I don't know if a magic stick also requires a magic hat...)

[Corsair]

This is yet another silly aspect of LDS history that starts falling apart after a bit of critical thinking. Did Oliver put his face in the hat and subsequently saw nothing at all?

Nope. Remember: Oliver was a Dowsing Rod (Rod of Aaron) guy, not a Seer Stone guy. He was literally using a magic stick to "translate". (I don't know if a magic stick also requires a magic hat...)

Good point; this makes it sillier. Oliver is not in front of the plates since he has not seen them yet. Joseph never has plates in front of him either, so OLiver has to make it happen without this sacred artifact. Instead of a seer stone, Oliver is standing there waving his magic wand around like a delusional cosplayer at San Diego Comicon. He is hoping that inspiration strikes him and he can get write some scripture and not look like an idiot. Instead, his failed performance lives on as a cautionary tale about why miracles don't work for anyone else either.

[Rob4Hope]

Urim and Thummim?....

I want one!

Maybe if I trick-or-treat this year, someone will put some cool "Urim and Thummin" glasses in my bag? But wait...what about the hat?

I gotta find the right hat.....arrgggggg

[Palerider]

Just so we're absolutely clear on this aspect:

I have a close friend who has illustrated numerous articles for the Ensign and done paintings for the church and I can tell you emphatically that the church art dept. has a rigorous art criteria that has to be approved by a general authority before it can be published by the church.

No artist has free reign to depict Joseph Smith or his activities for church publication without church leadership approval. And they are VERY specific about the content of the art. If there are plates being shown in the artwork it's because the church WANTS them in there. If there are a set of Urim and Thummim being used by Joseph for the translation it's because the church wants them in there.

Anyone saying differently is either lying or very poorly informed.

[wtfluff]

Just so we're absolutely clear on this aspect:

I have a close friend who has illustrated numerous articles for the Ensign and done paintings for the church and I can tell you emphatically that the church art dept. has a rigorous art criteria that has to be approved by a general authority before it can be published by the church.

No artist has free reign to depict Joseph Smith or his activities for church publication without church leadership approval. And they are VERY specific about the content of the art. If there are plates being shown in the artwork it's because the church WANTS them in there. If there are a set of Urim and Thummim being used by Joseph for the translation it's because the church wants them in there.

Anyone saying differently is either lying or very poorly informed.

Exactly!

The uppity-ups approve EVERYTHING. Trying to dodge responsibility by "blaming" artists for their "rendition" of the narrative is completely cowardly and dishonest.

I'd like to ask someone who dodges responsibility in this way to explain why none of the LDS Corporation produced videos has actually shown the truth about the "translation". Those videos are produced in the church owned "Motion Picture Studios". Everything in those "studios" is under the control of LDS-Inc., yet still they can't produce anything that is honest.

[Red Ryder]

Mormon me never thought about this stuff.

Now it's like:

[Rob4Hope]

Just so we're absolutely clear on this aspect:

I have a close friend who has illustrated numerous articles for the Ensign and done paintings for the church and I can tell you emphatically that the church art dept. has a rigorous art criteria that has to be approved by a general authority before it can be published by the church.

No artist has free reign to depict Joseph Smith or his activities for church publication without church leadership approval. And they are VERY specific about the content of the art. If there are plates being shown in the artwork it's because the church WANTS them in there. If there are a set of Urim and Thummim being used by Joseph for the translation it's because the church wants them in there.

Anyone saying differently is either lying or very poorly informed.

Hunh?

This is shocking...I've considered it, but never had anyone actually say it.

If this is the case, and you indicate it is, the church WILLINGLY lies. Of course we already know that...but still!

[wtfluff]

Just so we're absolutely clear on this aspect:

I have a close friend who has illustrated numerous articles for the Ensign and done paintings for the church and I can tell you emphatically that the church art dept. has a rigorous art criteria that has to be approved by a general authority before it can be published by the church.

No artist has free reign to depict Joseph Smith or his activities for church publication without church leadership approval. And they are VERY specific about the content of the art. If there are plates being shown in the artwork it's because the church WANTS them in there. If there are a set of Urim and Thummim being used by Joseph for the translation it's because the church wants them in there.

Anyone saying differently is either lying or very poorly informed.

Hunh?

This is shocking...I've considered it, but never had anyone actually say it.

If this is the case, and you indicate it is, the church WILLINGLY lies. Of course we already know that...but still!

Do you honestly think that this would get published without leadership approval Rob?

[el-asherah]

For those interested in a more scholarly description of what the Urim and Thummim actually was in a Biblical Old Testament context I recommend the following article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urim_and_Thummim.

Per the article the Urim and Thummin were unique wood or stone/jewel objects which when randomly selected would indicate guilt/innocence or yes/no. Sort of like rolling dice or casting lots to get an answer for simple binary yes/no questions. Presumably with God biasing or ensuring the correct outcome. There is no factual Jewish basis for the Urim and Thummin to be eye glasses one would look through and see things.

I suspect that in actual practice due to the folk magic mindset of the time period, Joseph's seer stones or Cowdery's divining rod were used to answer simple yes/no questions during the BoM translation and provide confirmation to what they thought the story of the BoM should say. This is the model in D&C 8 for the BoM translation, i.e. came up with a story in your mind, and then seek confirmation of yes/no through some mechanism (seer stones/ urim and thummim / divining rods / burning in your bosom) that will give you Gods approve/disapproval.

[Rob4Hope]

Just so we're absolutely clear on this aspect:

I have a close friend who has illustrated numerous articles for the Ensign and done paintings for the church and I can tell you emphatically that the church art dept. has a rigorous art criteria that has to be approved by a general authority before it can be published by the church.

No artist has free reign to depict Joseph Smith or his activities for church publication without church leadership approval. And they are VERY specific about the content of the art. If there are plates being shown in the artwork it's because the church WANTS them in there. If there are a set of Urim and Thummim being used by Joseph for the translation it's because the church wants them in there.

Anyone saying differently is either lying or very poorly informed.

Hunh?

This is shocking...I've considered it, but never had anyone actually say it.

If this is the case, and you indicate it is, the church WILLINGLY lies. Of course we already know that...but still!

Do you honestly think that this would get published without leadership approval Rob?

You know...I think there is leadership approval, but at what level is what I wonder.

I've worked in a REALLY REALLY big organization, doing technical work. And this company had a lower level of people (me) who did the work and actually surfaced problems. Then there was a middle layer of management who baffled and lied about things, and as they reported things upline, those lies perpetuated. So, as you went up the ranks, you had people who didn't know what was going on,...literally. Why?...because the middle layer were telling lies.

This happened all the time.

So, Palerider above said a GA oversaw the art department. What was that GA level?....was he a member of the Q15? Or, do you have a Q15 person listening to a middle layer manager who is shoveling bull? What was the upper level person told?

I'm not misdirected or being silly here. I just can't help but think of someone like Robert Hales and his health concerns,...and others. These guys can't make decisions and would be easily deceived. I remember reading Greg Prince's book about David O. Mckay...and president McKay was deceived and taken advantage of all over the place. ALL OVER THE PLACE.

How much of that is happening?

And, yeh...this picture is a total lie. We all know it...but what was the message of how this was sold to the GAs at the highest level?...and were they in their right mind when it was sold to them?

I think they are deceived, but there is this possibility I am talking about here that, IMHO, may muddy the clearness of the issue.

[Palerider]

Rob,

Minimum it was a 70. It's been a few years but I was thinking an apostle.

No 70 is going to want an apostle to see an already published Ensign cover or interior illustrations and come to see him and say, "What the heck is this? Why does this look this way???"

So the assignment parameters are already set out and pre-approved along with a rough sketch showing the illustrator what is expected. Really tight control.

Then the artist submits a rough color sketch back to the church for approval. Then he gets permission to proceed with final artwork.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Bear in mind that urim and thummim wasn't applied to the Nephite spectacles until later on. Read the original book of commandments verses about translation and it's not there. Inserted later.

Brant A. Gardner
"A reason for faith"

About the time of the publication of the Book of Commandments in 1833, W. W. Phelps began using the biblical term Urim and Thummim to describe both the interpreters and Joseph's seer stone. It was a reference of convenience that lent a more sophisticated feeling to the translation. Christians knew of the Urim and Thummim from the bible, where they were connected to the high priest and receiving revelation. Particularly for newer converts, that was a more familiar reference than the seer stones, and it soon became the way to refer to the process by which the translation occurred, even though the term was technically inaccurate.

The term Urim and Thummim was inserted later into sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. For example, in our current version, D&C 10:1 reads, "Now, behold, I say unto you, that because you delivered up those writings, which you had power given unto you to translate by means of the Urim and Thummim, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them." The addition of the information about the Urim and Thummim is in the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants, and that meaning was firmly entrenched by that time.

[alas]

Rob,

Minimum it was a 70. It's been a few years but I was thinking an apostle.

No 70 is going to want an apostle to see an already published Ensign cover or interior illustrations and come to see him and say, "What the heck is this? Why does this look this way???"

So the assignment parameters are already set out and pre-approved along with a rough sketch showing the illustrator what is expected. Really tight control.

Then the artist submits a rough color sketch back to the church for approval. Then he gets permission to proceed with final artwork.

At one time, the head editor of the Ensign was a relative of mine, I don't know who is now, maybe my relative or not as I don't read it and don't keep track. He said that everything is approved both through the coorlation department and one of the 15. Even the conference talks have to go through coorlation, which checks them for being proper doctrine. The prophet has his talk for general conference approved by a committee of hired nonprophets who check it for being doctrine. So much for new revelation. This is consistent with what I have also heard about the Tab choir being supervised by one of the 15, who approves all music. In fact I had a friend who complained that someone with ZERO musical training, has to approve all music, and any random comment about liking X is seen as a commandment that they work that into their schedule. His taste in music runs things. Neither my friend, nor my relative would name who the overbearing GA was, but both were complaining about someone with no professional training dictating to professionals about how to do their job. No, I didn't get the feeling that they thought the GA was acting on inspiration.

I read an article by some Bible expert that the U&T was a set of small black and white stones, with marks on them. There were different marks on the different sides. He thought the marks would correspond to letters of the alphabet, and used the idea of the sacred "word", as in "the word was with God and the word was God." The two sets of stones were thrown out onto the ground like dice, and then the marks "read" in combination. He compared them to Taro cards, where the reader reads the fortune by combining the meaning of each card into some coherent story. So, sort of like, this is the death mark, this is the king mark, and once all the marks were read, they would figure out how to combine them in a meaningful way. So, it was more than just a binary yes or no, but still a way of casting lots.

[Give It Time]

Rob,

Minimum it was a 70. It's been a few years but I was thinking an apostle.

No 70 is going to want an apostle to see an already published Ensign cover or interior illustrations and come to see him and say, "What the heck is this? Why does this look this way???"

So the assignment parameters are already set out and pre-approved along with a rough sketch showing the illustrator what is expected. Really tight control.

Then the artist submits a rough color sketch back to the church for approval. Then he gets permission to proceed with final artwork.

At one time, the head editor of the Ensign was a relative of mine, I don't know who is now, maybe my relative or not as I don't read it and don't keep track. He said that everything is approved both through the coorlation department and one of the 15. Even the conference talks have to go through coorlation, which checks them for being proper doctrine. The prophet has his talk for general conference approved by a committee of hired nonprophets who check it for being doctrine. So much for new revelation. This is consistent with what I have also heard about the Tab choir being supervised by one of the 15, who approves all music. In fact I had a friend who complained that someone with ZERO musical training, has to approve all music, and any random comment about liking X is seen as a commandment that they work that into their schedule. His taste in music runs things. Neither my friend, nor my relative would name who the overbearing GA was, but both were complaining about someone with no professional training dictating to professionals about how to do their job. No, I didn't get the feeling that they thought the GA was acting on inspiration.

I read an article by some Bible expert that the U&T was a set of small black and white stones, with marks on them. There were different marks on the different sides. He thought the marks would correspond to letters of the alphabet, and used the idea of the sacred "word", as in "the word was with God and the word was God." The two sets of stones were thrown out onto the ground like dice, and then the marks "read" in combination. He compared them to Taro cards, where the reader reads the fortune by combining the meaning of each card into some coherent story. So, sort of like, this is the death mark, this is the king mark, and once all the marks were read, they would figure out how to combine them in a meaningful way. So, it was more than just a binary yes or no, but still a way of casting lots.

Alas's first paragraph reminds me of how artists through the ages have relied on wealthy benefactors. Artists would, in fact, starve if it weren't for those benefactors. Some artists actually lived with their benefactors. I'm sure dictating what art is produced and what songs are sung is nothing new and not unique to the church.

The second paragraph reminds me of Taoist divination. They have three coins that they throw a certain number of times. After each throw, the pattern that is displayed by the coins is recorded. After the coins are thrown, the combination of patterns created by those throws is interpreted to help the person seeking an answer to a question to find that answer and solve their problem. That divination is one of the reason why I'm not into religious Taoism and stick to the philosophical.

I was taught that the U & T was a breastplate with twelve stones and that each of those stones represented one of the twelve tribes. There is also some sort of symbolic meaning to each of those stones. Those stones and the symbolic representation call to mind paganism and I really don't have a problem with that, because of the associations of the feminine divine. Somewhere on that breastplate are two clear stones that can be fitted into a glasses frame that is somehow worked into the breastplate, but can be removed to make wearing for interpretation easier.

In fact the Q15 could probably be considered a living U & T, with the main twelve representing the twelve tribes and the FP representing the two clear stones and glasses, which are probably considered symbols of the Trinity and feel free to put that in a conference talk, any COB lurkers. I've heard exact turns of phrase I have used turn up in talks. It wouldn't be the first time, but I'm going to have to start charging a fee.

[Hagoth]

I have known a number of artists who have done work for church magazines and I have heard complaints about apostles rejecting illustrations for all kinds of personal reasons. For instance, back in the early '70s the Friend was a lot more creative. It sometimes had fanciful illustrations with anthropomorphized animal characters until an apostle nixed it because "animals don't wear clothes." Fairly recently I had a friend comment about having to change his art according to the whims of an apostle. So a piece of cover art slipping through the cracks? Has the Telestial Kingdom frozen over?

[Hagoth]

I always wondered as a kid how Oliver attempted to translate the plates, and then later saw them for the first time as a witness.

You know, that never occurred to me. Mind blown.

[Palerider]

I always wondered as a kid how Oliver attempted to translate the plates, and then later saw them for the first time as a witness.

You know, that never occurred to me. Mind blown.

Deer in headlights look on my face right now....you're right Hagoth. Nice catch by Culper Jr. there.