The "coming Mormon revolution"?

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

I hope for a Mormon "Perestroika" with the same fervor I used to look forward to the 2nd coming, but my rational mind says it won't happen in my generation. I am more convinced it can only occur on an individual basis.

[deacon blues]

I wonder if Bednar would pray for change. The church had to wait until 1978 to rescind the priesthood ban because no one before President Kimball would wrestle with the Lord and pray for change. I see no one in the current top 15, with the possible exception of Dieter Uctdorf, who might really wrestle with the Lord in prayer.

[2bizE]

Wishful thinking or a real possibility? I guess I keep seeing retrenchment (Oaks) so I'm doubtful.

http://www.sltrib.com/pb/opinion/commen ... -evolution

I liked this article and I think this is coming. Here's why...Mr. Oaks.
He is an oppressor. He is a bully. People do not like this and are revolting in different ways. Some are leaving, especially the younger crowd. Some are starting to voice opinions. Did you see how many people on reddit have posted selfish about leaving? As his true nth continues, it will become easily for people to leave. It will get to the point here it will be like a Damon that breaks. The church will go from less than 30,000 people leaving annually to more like 100,000. The millennials are going to set the example and many will leave. If you have 4 kids and they all leave the church in early adulthood, would it make it easier for you to leave too?

[Jeffret]

I wonder if Bednar would pray for change. The church had to wait until 1978 to rescind the priesthood ban because no one before President Kimball would wrestle with the Lord and pray for change. I see no one in the current top 15, with the possible exception of Dieter Uctdorf, who might really wrestle with the Lord in prayer.

When the need becomes sufficiently great, any of them with their level of belief, dedication, and position will seek out answers in prayer. Sure, they'll start from their prejudices and biases, their strong convictions, but if the need becomes sufficiently acute, they'll be willing to think differently. That's the way revelation has always worked. That's the way it worked for Woodruff. That's the way it worked for Kimball. If things continue as we see now, that's the way it will work for whoever has responsibility.

[Palerider]

I wonder if Bednar would pray for change. The church had to wait until 1978 to rescind the priesthood ban because no one before President Kimball would wrestle with the Lord and pray for change. I see no one in the current top 15, with the possible exception of Dieter Uctdorf, who might really wrestle with the Lord in prayer.

When the need becomes sufficiently great, any of them with their level of belief, dedication, and position will seek out answers in prayer. Sure, they'll start from their prejudices and biases, their strong convictions, but if the need becomes sufficiently acute, they'll be willing to think differently. That's the way revelation has always worked. That's the way it worked for Woodruff. That's the way it worked for Kimball. If things continue as we see now, that's the way it will work for whoever has responsibility.

I agree but they might have a hard time calling it "revelation". What's that they say about necessity being the mother of invention?

I suppose they could "invent" a revelation as they have done all along...

[alas]

I see the church retrenching on some things, but at the same time progressing on others. For example, just with the guy issue, we have Oak's talk, but we have a website for gays sponsored by the church. The church has kind of backed off the things Oaks said as the proper way to handle your gay children and their spouse, but at the same time we have the POX.

I saw this same retrenchment and progress before 1978. We had apostles saying black's will not be given the priesthood until all that should have been descendents of Able been given priesthood. Now, this assumed Able was murdeded before he was able to have children, so all theses spirits who were supposed to have been born into his line, have to wait till Able is resurrected and has children---sometime during the milenium. Then all those generations of Able's descendents, have to be born and given priesthood some 6 thousand years to get them all born, THEN the descendents of Cain can get priesthood. But at the same time, mission presidents were teaching missionaries "any day now" and missionaries were promising blacks that they would live to get the priesthood. Yeah, I have a black friend who got interested in the church in 1973, and was promised by the missionaries that she would marry in the temple if she joined. Well, I knew her in 1989, and she had not married, but she could have. The missionaries promise sort of came true, she just never found her guy. So, there were some apostles getting stronger in insisting that blacks and priesthood was just not going to happen until well into or past the milenium. At the same time, others were saying how BY said the day would come when the blacks would...so, things were kind of going both directions at the same time.

So, I don't see a revolution, so much as just gradual change. Things stop being emphasized, and before you know it, something else is being taught instead. How many years before the church disavowed the "blacks were less valiant in the preexistence"? Not until the essay came out. They just sort of stopped teaching it, for 40 years, then started teaching something else, and firing idiots who taught at BYU who didn't know how the church works, and said out loud the old teaching.

[moksha]

They just sort of stopped teaching it, for 40 years, then started teaching something else, and firing idiots who taught at BYU who didn't know how the church works, and said out loud the old teaching.

One teaching for which I have never heard a denial was that blacks could only reach the Celestial Kingdom as servants. It is hard for me to conceive of the mindset by which the Brethren invented that idea back at the time of Joseph F. Smith, but it must have contained a combination of both arrogance and rancor. Imagine sentencing faithful Jane Manning James to an eternity as a servant to Joseph Smith.

[Corsair]

One teaching for which I have never heard a denial was that blacks could only reach the Celestial Kingdom as servants. It is hard for me to conceive of the mindset by which the Brethren invented that idea back at the time of Joseph F. Smith, but it must have contained a combination of both arrogance and rancor. Imagine sentencing faithful Jane Manning James to an eternity as a servant to Joseph Smith.

They don't want to deny the "servant" incidents because it points out the fact that it occurred at all. Having a group of people denied the priesthood based on skin color was bad enough, but it was only an instance of "you can't join our club". But the 19th century LDS church doubled down on this "doctrine" and declared "you can't join our club and we are officially making you a second class citizen forever." This happened in in 1894 which was a full two years before the first Jim Crow laws were passed in the United States. This is a racially sensitive time and I'm sure that the church PR department does not want to brand 19th century leaders as racists even more than they have to now.

[1smartdodog]

There are probly enough members who do not want any change to keep it solvent for some time. It will stop growing within 10 years, but then it will meander on for some time status quo for the most part.

In reality the church would cease to exist if it changes to much. Just one announcement from the pulpit like the BOM is fiction would collapse belief. Imagine if they say Joseph made most of it up. Who in their right mind would continue more than a cursory membership after that.

So if you are hoping for real change you are actually just wishing for the demise of the church. It can not exist with that type of change

In the end I really do not care. The earth will continue to rotate no matter what the church does.

[Anon70]

In reality the church would cease to exist if it changes to much. Just one announcement from the pulpit like the BOM is fiction would collapse belief. Imagine if they say Joseph made most of it up. Who in their right mind would continue more than a cursory membership after that.

I know someone irl that told me directly that even it the church admitted the BOM was a) completely made up by JS, 2) plagiarized from other books or 3) dropped on earth by aliens they would still believe it was scripture due to the amazing spiritual experiences they've had in relation to its teachings.....

[deacon blues]

I see the church retrenching on some things, but at the same time progressing on others. For example, just with the guy issue, we have Oak's talk, but we have a website for gays sponsored by the church. The church has kind of backed off the things Oaks said as the proper way to handle your gay children and their spouse, but at the same time we have the POX.

I saw this same retrenchment and progress before 1978. We had apostles saying black's will not be given the priesthood until all that should have been descendents of Able been given priesthood. Now, this assumed Able was murdeded before he was able to have children, so all theses spirits who were supposed to have been born into his line, have to wait till Able is resurrected and has children---sometime during the milenium. Then all those generations of Able's descendents, have to be born and given priesthood some 6 thousand years to get them all born, THEN the descendents of Cain can get priesthood. But at the same time, mission presidents were teaching missionaries "any day now" and missionaries were promising blacks that they would live to get the priesthood. Yeah, I have a black friend who got interested in the church in 1973, and was promised by the missionaries that she would marry in the temple if she joined. Well, I knew her in 1989, and she had not married, but she could have. The missionaries promise sort of came true, she just never found her guy. So, there were some apostles getting stronger in insisting that blacks and priesthood was just not going to happen until well into or past the milenium. At the same time, others were saying how BY said the day would come when the blacks would...so, things were kind of going both directions at the same time.

So, I don't see a revolution, so much as just gradual change. Things stop being emphasized, and before you know it, something else is being taught instead. How many years before the church disavowed the "blacks were less valiant in the preexistence"? Not until the essay came out. They just sort of stopped teaching it, for 40 years, then started teaching something else, and firing idiots who taught at BYU who didn't know how the church works, and said out loud the old teaching.

I gotta say WOW! I was on a mission in So. Cal. from 1975-77, and never heard a hint about "any day now". Maybe it was because our Mission president was Harold B. Lee's son in law.

[Palerider]

I know someone irl that told me directly that even it the church admitted the BOM was a) completely made up by JS, 2) plagiarized from other books or 3) dropped on earth by aliens they would still believe it was scripture due to the amazing spiritual experiences they've had in relation to its teachings.....

I don't necessarily or automatically discount spiritual experiences brought on by BofM teachings. This is where I parse things pretty closely.

In the Old Testament particularly, God would bless Israel not for THEIR righteousness but because his name was upon them. He would say essentially, I'm doing this for my name's sake, not because of your righteousness.

Imagine God saying in essence, "Well, I know you're searching for me and I know this book has writings about me but because it's a phony book and not quite 100% accurate in doctrine....I'm not going to answer your prayers...."

If he did that, no one in ANY church would recieve the testimony of Christ because there is no pure or completely true religion anywhere on earth.

But Mormons can't see this concept as even a possibility. "I received a testimony of Christ here or an answered prayer here....Oh my GOSH! The whole thing must be true!!!"

Not necessarily so.

They easily see this in other churches. They say, "Yeah, you can get a testimony of Christ in another religion but you can't get the big one and the Holy Ghost unless you're baptized over here..."

BULL....

The difference isn't in the church, it's in how you're looking.

[Give It Time]

I see the church retrenching on some things, but at the same time progressing on others. For example, just with the guy issue, we have Oak's talk, but we have a website for gays sponsored by the church. The church has kind of backed off the things Oaks said as the proper way to handle your gay children and their spouse, but at the same time we have the POX.

I saw this same retrenchment and progress before 1978. We had apostles saying black's will not be given the priesthood until all that should have been descendents of Able been given priesthood. Now, this assumed Able was murdeded before he was able to have children, so all theses spirits who were supposed to have been born into his line, have to wait till Able is resurrected and has children---sometime during the milenium. Then all those generations of Able's descendents, have to be born and given priesthood some 6 thousand years to get them all born, THEN the descendents of Cain can get priesthood. But at the same time, mission presidents were teaching missionaries "any day now" and missionaries were promising blacks that they would live to get the priesthood. Yeah, I have a black friend who got interested in the church in 1973, and was promised by the missionaries that she would marry in the temple if she joined. Well, I knew her in 1989, and she had not married, but she could have. The missionaries promise sort of came true, she just never found her guy. So, there were some apostles getting stronger in insisting that blacks and priesthood was just not going to happen until well into or past the milenium. At the same time, others were saying how BY said the day would come when the blacks would...so, things were kind of going both directions at the same time.

So, I don't see a revolution, so much as just gradual change. Things stop being emphasized, and before you know it, something else is being taught instead. How many years before the church disavowed the "blacks were less valiant in the preexistence"? Not until the essay came out. They just sort of stopped teaching it, for 40 years, then started teaching something else, and firing idiots who taught at BYU who didn't know how the church works, and said out loud the old teaching.

I gotta say WOW! I was on a mission in So. Cal. from 1975-77, and never heard a hint about "any day now". Maybe it was because our Mission president was Harold B. Lee's son in law.

I heard both.

I read what alas wrote and I see this as possible scenario.

Twelve, no fifteen, men. Draw a circle. Place an issue at midnight. Place the polar opposite view at six. Fill in varying points of view with the right leaning views placed on the 12-6 side; place the left-leaning views on the 6-12 side. Starting at 12, assign a different Q15 member to a place on that clock, spacing out the names every four minutes around the clock. Have each apostle publicly speak on that subject to support their assigned position on that clock. A broken clock may be right twice a day, but if they hedge their bets in this manner, one of those apostles will be right on how the church ends up handling that issue. If he's wrong, he's wrong by two minutes and most people would allow for a two minute margin of error on prophecy.

In addition, there will be other apostles who will be close to that position on the clock, so the leaders may be fallible but they cannot, as a group, be wrong. Someone will magically be in the place the church eventually goes on that issue and the remaining brethren will simply fall in line.

Why do they take varying points of view?

Mystery solved.

[moksha]

La Revolución has begun Monsieur Laban. Viva la Book of Mormon!

McConkité, Packerité, Bédarité
-- Motto of the Mormon Revolution

[Corsair]

La Revolución has begun Monsieur Laban. Viva la Book of Mormon!

Based on the staging of this Brick of Mormon scene, it's going to look awfully suspicious when Nephi goes wandering around Jerusalem in Laban's blood stained outfit as his disguise. I'm not sure this is the Mormon Revolution I was looking for.

[oliver_denom]

La Revolución has begun Monsieur Laban. Viva la Book of Mormon!

Based on the staging of this Brick of Mormon scene, it's going to look awfully suspicious when Nephi goes wandering around Jerusalem in Laban's blood stained outfit as his disguise. I'm not sure this is the Mormon Revolution I was looking for.

Laban was drunk, maybe Nephi took all his clothes off first. I hear tequila can have that effect.

[Corsair]

Laban was drunk, maybe Nephi took all his clothes off first. I hear tequila can have that effect.

This makes the story both morbidly and hilariously worse. Let's look at Nephi's stream of consciousness as this event unfolds:

"Whoa, he's passed out. I'll take his clothes!"

"Oh man, now he's passed out naked in the street. And he's hung like a curelom. This is looking both suspicious and gay! Laban's going to be pissed when he wakes up. Here's a solution: I'll cut off his head!"

"Holy poop! That is a lot of blood! Good thing I made sure he was naked before I killed him. Shoot, that sounds really guilty. I better get out of here."

"Did I really just leave the naked, headless body of a prominent city official dead in the street? Will that look weird when someone inevitably stumbles across him? There is no chance we can ever move back to Jerusalem now. I better get those plates and get out of town. Maybe this will work better if I bring along one of Laban's servants."

[oliver_denom]

Laban was drunk, maybe Nephi took all his clothes off first. I hear tequila can have that effect.

This makes the story both morbidly and hilariously worse. Let's look at Nephi's stream of consciousness as this event unfolds:

Somewhere in Jerusalem one of Laban's servants saw Nephi undressing his boss in an ally and decided to look the other way, "Not again. I didn't see a thing."

[moksha]

"Maybe I could say that Laban's head cutting was a consensual act between two adults. Perhaps Chief Executive Magistrate Weinstein will believe it."
-- Nephi

[2bizE]

Wishful thinking or a real possibility? I guess I keep seeing retrenchment (Oaks) so I'm doubtful.

http://www.sltrib.com/pb/opinion/commen ... -evolution

I liked this article and I think this is coming. Here's why...Mr. Oaks.
He is an oppressor. He is a bully. People do not like this and are revolting in different ways. Some are leaving, especially the younger crowd. Some are starting to voice opinions. Did you see how many people on reddit have posted selfies about leaving? As his true nth continues, it will become easily for people to leave. It will get to the point here it will be like a Damon that breaks. The church will go from less than 30,000 people leaving annually to more like 100,000. The millennials are going to set the example and many will leave. If you have 4 kids and they all leave the church in early adulthood, would it make it easier for you to leave too?