Non-religious God

[SaidNobody]

I thought of this, last night, when I was getting ready for bed.

I've been telling this story for a very long time and it finally occurred to me that I've never explained why I didn't visit with the bishop during that painful time. So, this post is actually for any TBM/COB lurkers, out there.

Before we moved into our present ward, my father shafted my ex and me on a business deal. That business deal was the reason we moved to Utah. We put everything on the line for him and he shafted us. It really caught us off guard, because my father had had a long-standing reputation as an honorable man while my mother was living. In fact, my family didn't believe us because of this reputation. It was bad enough that moving was really the right thing to do. It tore me apart. It estranged me from my entire family

I started to respond to your previous on my phone, but thought better of it, and by the time my computer could reboot, you had posted this.

But it only reinforces what I was going to say anyway. I was known was "SPG" on former NOM, and honestly, I don't think I remember you if you were on there. If you were there, forgive me.

I was sort of known for my crazy talk, which I will engage in a little here.

I had a big beautiful environment once. I was going to heaven. I had eternal friends and family. I was one of the elect., blah, blah, blah. I was respected not only for my own good works, but for my lineage as well. And, following my father's advice, I sought the truth so I could know for myself. And well, here I am.

But one of the reasons I promote the church is because, it works for some people. It works for many people. They get to have that "it's going to be OK feeling." Yeah, I know it is all crap, because there is no promise, and that you can get crushed by some gross, twisted life event. Because no one asks for those kind of events and they still happen.

When I worked in the SLC area, I did a lot of home installs of home theater, so I saw some of the finest homes. Like the $17million ski-cabins in Park City. But the homes I like most were obviously well-off Mormons. Their homes were nice, warm, functional, and built for family. Big pictures of family and church on the walls. I wanted to be part of those illusions more then I wanted to part of vulgar display of wealth of the truly rich.

But riches and family, they are illusions. They are conditional. I know we want to think they aren't, but they are. They don't just "accept us the way we are." I know we think they will, we want them to, etc.

Some people go through big changes and they struggle to be accepted, like maybe they are gay or something. Many families won't even go that far because these families are built on illusions. We all go to grandma's house because she is nice, loyal, faithful, etc. But if grandma joins a biker clubs, as she probably wants to, that illusion is destroyed. So grandma becomes trapped in a role that she may not like.

The meanest thing to do is tell someone, "oh, that didn't hurt as much as you are making it seem." I heard that a lot growing up. I cannot compare my pain to yours. But, speaking for myself, most of my pain is because I expected them to know better. The physical trauma mended, but the emotional betrayal didn't. I expected them to know better.

And thus, came one of my most important life lessons: Almost all pain is based on expectations. We wake up sometimes and expect to see someone. We want to go somewhere because we expect that we were welcome. But that is the truth about life, we have no right to expect anything. Not really. When we justify our expectations, it is because we are playing a game with someone. And yes, when the expectation isn't met, we feel betrayed. But, we must keep in mind, that some degree, in truth, we are dealing with naked apes. That part of us that isn't animal, can be very fragile.

People expected the founders of the LDS to be better than they seem to be. People expected the founding fathers of America to be better then seem to be. People expected more evidence that Jesus walked on the water.

And, we are hurt when things don't pan out. And, sadly, there is only one way to heal. Release our expectations. I love my father. . . now. He had his issues, hurt some people, me included. But, given context, he was hurt too.

Hurt people, hurt others. It's a rule, pretty much. My mission, which I have chosen to accept, is to not be hurt. I don't want to hurt others. And while I might think I am righteous sometimes, I am not blind to the pain I cause, even unintentionally. So, my method of not hurting others is to heal my hurts. Not bury them, but actually heal them. And as I said, expectations are the pain. They are go deeper then we might think, but none are truly justified.

[alas]

I thought of this, last night, when I was getting ready for bed.

I've been telling this story for a very long time and it finally occurred to me that I've never explained why I didn't visit with the bishop during that painful time. So, this post is actually for any TBM/COB lurkers, out there.

Before we moved into our present ward, my father shafted my ex and me on a business deal. That business deal was the reason we moved to Utah. We put everything on the line for him and he shafted us. It really caught us off guard, because my father had had a long-standing reputation as an honorable man while my mother was living. In fact, my family didn't believe us because of this reputation. It was bad enough that moving was really the right thing to do. It tore me apart. It estranged me from my entire family

I started to respond to your previous on my phone, but thought better of it, and by the time my computer could reboot, you had posted this.

But it only reinforces what I was going to say anyway. I was known was "SPG" on former NOM, and honestly, I don't think I remember you if you were on there. If you were there, forgive me.

I was sort of known for my crazy talk, which I will engage in a little here.

I had a big beautiful environment once. I was going to heaven. I had eternal friends and family. I was one of the elect., blah, blah, blah. I was respected not only for my own good works, but for my lineage as well. And, following my father's advice, I sought the truth so I could know for myself. And well, here I am.

But one of the reasons I promote the church is because, it works for some people. It works for many people. They get to have that "it's going to be OK feeling." Yeah, I know it is all crap, because there is no promise, and that you can get crushed by some gross, twisted life event. Because no one asks for those kind of events and they still happen.

When I worked in the SLC area, I did a lot of home installs of home theater, so I saw some of the finest homes. Like the $17million ski-cabins in Park City. But the homes I like most were obviously well-off Mormons. Their homes were nice, warm, functional, and built for family. Big pictures of family and church on the walls. I wanted to be part of those illusions more then I wanted to part of vulgar display of wealth of the truly rich.

But riches and family, they are illusions. They are conditional. I know we want to think they aren't, but they are. They don't just "accept us the way we are." I know we think they will, we want them to, etc.

Some people go through big changes and they struggle to be accepted, like maybe they are gay or something. Many families won't even go that far because these families are built on illusions. We all go to grandma's house because she is nice, loyal, faithful, etc. But if grandma joins a biker clubs, as she probably wants to, that illusion is destroyed. So grandma becomes trapped in a role that she may not like.

The meanest thing to do is tell someone, "oh, that didn't hurt as much as you are making it seem." I heard that a lot growing up. I cannot compare my pain to yours. But, speaking for myself, most of my pain is because I expected them to know better. The physical trauma mended, but the emotional betrayal didn't. I expected them to know better.

And thus, came one of my most important life lessons: Almost all pain is based on expectations. We wake up sometimes and expect to see someone. We want to go somewhere because we expect that we were welcome. But that is the truth about life, we have no right to expect anything. Not really. When we justify our expectations, it is because we are playing a game with someone. And yes, when the expectation isn't met, we feel betrayed. But, we must keep in mind, that some degree, in truth, we are dealing with naked apes. That part of us that isn't animal, can be very fragile.

People expected the founders of the LDS to be better than they seem to be. People expected the founding fathers of America to be better then seem to be. People expected more evidence that Jesus walked on the water.

And, we are hurt when things don't pan out. And, sadly, there is only one way to heal. Release our expectations. I love my father. . . now. He had his issues, hurt some people, me included. But, given context, he was hurt too.

Hurt people, hurt others. It's a rule, pretty much. My mission, which I have chosen to accept, is to not be hurt. I don't want to hurt others. And while I might think I am righteous sometimes, I am not blind to the pain I cause, even unintentionally. So, my method of not hurting others is to heal my hurts. Not bury them, but actually heal them. And as I said, expectations are the pain. They are go deeper then we might think, but none are truly justified.

SPG, I had started wondering if this was you. It just sounded like your philosophy, and crazy talk. Welcome to the new NOM, my friend.

You are right about having expectation is what gets us hurt. I still waffle between knowing that it is expectations that get us hurt, and knowing that the only way to know love is to allow yourself to have expectations. So, I sort of try to stay in the middle, which I am not sure is good either. Like for Mother's Day, I only half expect my kids to call. So, the half that expects to hear from them is going to take my phone shopping so I can answer when they call. And when my expectation are fulfilled, I am happier than if I had not had any expectation. And when my half expectations are not filled, because my daughter is busy being a mother, and my other daughter has had her phone canceled for lack of payments again, I am not as disappointed as if I had full expectations.

[SaidNobody]

Dup

[SaidNobody]

SPG, I had started wondering if this was you. It just sounded like your philosophy, and crazy talk. Welcome to the new NOM, my friend.

You are right about having expectation is what gets us hurt. I still waffle between knowing that it is expectations that get us hurt, and knowing that the only way to know love is to allow yourself to have expectations. So, I sort of try to stay in the middle, which I am not sure is good either. Like for Mother's Day, I only half expect my kids to call. So, the half that expects to hear from them is going to take my phone shopping so I can answer when they call. And when my expectation are fulfilled, I am happier than if I had not had any expectation. And when my half expectations are not filled, because my daughter is busy being a mother, and my other daughter has had her phone canceled for lack of payments again, I am not as disappointed as if I had full expectations.

Hey alas, thanks.

Expectations hurt, but I'm not sure how you do without them. Like, I expect my daughter to speak respectfully to us, Her parents. Of course, I get hurt with that one from time to time. But, it is a pain I willingly embrace. To not expect her respect would basically ruin her life.

I think it is a balance. In a technical sense, I have no right to expect anything from her, but because I love her, I will always expect good things from her. But, I always know (but not expect) that I can get disappointed.

[Give It Time]

Hey SPG, thanks for your thoughtful and caring response. I agree that expectations cause hurt. Expectations are an attachment. I disagree about the hurting people hurt people. I believe it can happen, but isn't a rule. However, if that applies to you, I'm glad you find a way to head it off. I have learned that it all comes down to how we treat one another and I'm glad you've found a way to tap into your better self

Leia/Hypatia/Anya/Give It Time

[SaidNobody]

Hey SPG, thanks for your thoughtful and caring response. I agree that expectations cause hurt. Expectations are an attachment. I disagree about the hurting people hurt people. I believe it can happen, but isn't a rule. However, if that applies to you, I'm glad you find a way to head it off. I have learned that it all comes down to how we treat one another and I'm glad you've found a way to tap into your better self

Leia/Hypatia/Anya/Give It Time

Hurting others is not always an overt action. Even when we withdraw because we are in pain, it does hurt others. When we are not fully engaged where as we would normally be, it hurts others. I used to think I could disagree with this rule as well. But it seems pretty much cut in stone to me now.

I think I remember you by some of your other names. Course it has been a while. So I won't make a fool of myself by pretending I remember discussions we might have had.

[Give It Time]

That's fine. You make a good point. It's like giving someone the cold shoulder is an abuse tactic, but if I were to talk to the person at whom I'm angry, I would definitely say some things we both regret. Or I simply don't have the words, at the time, to say them.

[SaidNobody]

That's fine. You make a good point. It's like giving someone the cold shoulder is an abuse tactic, but if I were to talk to the person at whom I'm angry, I would definitely say some things we both regret. Or I simply don't have the words, at the time, to say them.

This is true, but compassion plays a part too. When one is hurting and other empathize, it causes pain in others.

[Give It Time]

That's fine. You make a good point. It's like giving someone the cold shoulder is an abuse tactic, but if I were to talk to the person at whom I'm angry, I would definitely say some things we both regret. Or I simply don't have the words, at the time, to say them.

This is true, but compassion plays a part too. When one is hurting and other empathize, it causes pain in others.

This doesn't happen when one is married to an abuser, but I need to stop saying that. I know I've hurt non-abusivd people with my silence.

[SaidNobody]

That's fine. You make a good point. It's like giving someone the cold shoulder is an abuse tactic, but if I were to talk to the person at whom I'm angry, I would definitely say some things we both regret. Or I simply don't have the words, at the time, to say them.

This is true, but compassion plays a part too. When one is hurting and other empathize, it causes pain in others.

This doesn't happen when one is married to an abuser, but I need to stop saying that. I know I've hurt non-abusivd people with my silence.

Very often, abusers have been abused. While abusers are not to blame for their pain, they are responsible for it. Pain is often amplified because we feel like no else understands, so we hurt others to make them understand. Either through revenge or abusing others.

Very often, those in a lot of pain cannot empathize with others because their pain is too great.

A fair amount of people hurt me, and some of those have matured enough to regret it. They would look upon my struggles as something they might have contributed to. The best thing I can do is be OK.

[Give It Time]

Sometimes they do it, because they want to be large and in charge and abuse is an effective way to get things done, in the short term. There are also abusers who are just plain sadistic and enjoy watching people suffer and they feel no empathy because they are on the ASPD spectrum.

Where does my compassion lie for people like this? Well, they have their daily struggles just like the rest of us. They try to shoulder them bravely, like the rest of us, but since the rest of us aren't behaving according to their world order, they lash out to bring people in line. They call this "stressing out". They seem to do it much more than others and that stressing out isn't about "losing it", it's about trying to gain control of the other person/people.

Then, because their ability to empathise is limited, they can't experience some things on as deep an emotional level and I think that's kind of sad. So, there's my compassion, but if I witness regular mistreatment. Regular mistreatment. I will give them a wide berth. I'm not their therapist.

[SaidNobody]

Sometimes they do it, because they want to be large and in charge and abuse is an effective way to get things done, in the short term. There are also abusers who are just plain sadistic and enjoy watching people suffer and they feel no empathy because they are on the ASPD spectrum.

Where does my compassion lie for people like this? Well, they have their daily struggles just like the rest of us. They try to shoulder them bravely, like the rest of us, but since the rest of us aren't behaving according to their world order, they lash out to bring people in line. They call this "stressing out". They seem to do it much more than others and that stressing out isn't about "losing it", it's about trying to gain control of the other person/people.

Then, because their ability to empathise is limited, they can't experience some things on as deep an emotional level and I think that's kind of sad. So, there's my compassion, but if I witness regular mistreatment. Regular mistreatment. I will give them a wide berth. I'm not their therapist.

Sometimes our very nature can hurt others. And it doesn't always have to be violence or mean.

Pain isn't always high visibility. Take the mother that is insecure and so does too much for her son. The son takes that insecurity to a deeper level, then becomes violent to mask his insecurity.

Hurt is connected to identity and identity is relatived to environment. Bad people aren't always bad souls. Mostly, bad people are hurting deeply themselves.

I don't know about sadists and psychos. Biology plays a role.

[Give It Time]

Good points.

[SaidNobody]

Good points.

My willingness to believe in God is in part about this flow of pain as if it were water. Emotion isn't just expression, it flows as if in it's own space. It is as if stuff moves around us, effects us, but isn't exactly in the same space.

There is a physical component to it like magnetism, but also an invisible aspect of it.

[Give It Time]

I'm going to put some of the money I spend on therapy to use and let you know that, at this time, I have nothing new to say on the subject.

I'm not giving you the cold shoulder. Just nothing more to say, right now.

[SaidNobody]

I'm going to put some of the money I spend on therapy to use and let you know that, at this time, I have nothing new to say on the subject.

I'm not giving you the cold shoulder. Just nothing more to say, right now.

I'm not even going to take that personal. I challenge the most sane.

[Give It Time]

I'm going to put some of the money I spend on therapy to use and let you know that, at this time, I have nothing new to say on the subject.

I'm not giving you the cold shoulder. Just nothing more to say, right now.

I'm not even going to take that personal. I challenge the most sane.

Thank you

[alas]

Sometimes they do it, because they want to be large and in charge and abuse is an effective way to get things done, in the short term. There are also abusers who are just plain sadistic and enjoy watching people suffer and they feel no empathy because they are on the ASPD spectrum.

Where does my compassion lie for people like this? Well, they have their daily struggles just like the rest of us. They try to shoulder them bravely, like the rest of us, but since the rest of us aren't behaving according to their world order, they lash out to bring people in line. They call this "stressing out". They seem to do it much more than others and that stressing out isn't about "losing it", it's about trying to gain control of the other person/people.

Then, because their ability to empathise is limited, they can't experience some things on as deep an emotional level and I think that's kind of sad. So, there's my compassion, but if I witness regular mistreatment. Regular mistreatment. I will give them a wide berth. I'm not their therapist.

I do think some people hurt others because they get some satisfaction out of it. One really strong memory I have is when my brother just older than I and myself did something, no memory of what got us in trouble, but my dad decided that we had both earned a spanking. My brother was 5 or 6, and I was just 4. But my brother was trying hard to be a big boy and not cry, and I watched my dad keep spanking and keep spanking until my brother broke his resolve and cried. Then I saw the delighted, satisfied, pleasure, on my dad's face and realized that he got some kind of sick joy out of making us cry. He proved he was bigger, or whatever, but he sure got some kind of pleasure out of it. So, my obstanite 4 year old self decided that I would NEVER give him the satisfaction of seeing me cry again. So, it was my turn to get spanked, and my dad did the same as he did with my brother, and kept spanking in an effort to make me cry. But I would have died before I gave that a** hat the satisfaction of seeing my cry. But he spanked until he just got tired of it all, probably like 15-30 minutes of pounding my behind with a flat metal ruler. My bottom was actually bleeding before he stopped, but I did not cry. He never spanked me again, which I am not sure was remorse or what.

When people hurt others because they are hurting themselves, it has a different feel to it than when they get some kind of satisfaction out of it. My mother sometimes crossed the and became abusive, but with her, it felt like she was doing the best she knew how in a stressful situation. Like one time she beat my brother just older than me because he started a fire on his bedroom floor, and then went off and left it burning and she was so angry because he knew better, and he could have burned the whole house down.

With my dad, things always felt like he wanted an excuse to hurt us kids because he enjoyed the power. He did things to my mother that were nothing but mean, like dig out her favorite rose bush, and then act happy that she was hurt and angry.

[Give It Time]

Sometimes they do it, because they want to be large and in charge and abuse is an effective way to get things done, in the short term. There are also abusers who are just plain sadistic and enjoy watching people suffer and they feel no empathy because they are on the ASPD spectrum.

Where does my compassion lie for people like this? Well, they have their daily struggles just like the rest of us. They try to shoulder them bravely, like the rest of us, but since the rest of us aren't behaving according to their world order, they lash out to bring people in line. They call this "stressing out". They seem to do it much more than others and that stressing out isn't about "losing it", it's about trying to gain control of the other person/people.

Then, because their ability to empathise is limited, they can't experience some things on as deep an emotional level and I think that's kind of sad. So, there's my compassion, but if I witness regular mistreatment. Regular mistreatment. I will give them a wide berth. I'm not their therapist.

I do think some people hurt others because they get some satisfaction out of it. One really strong memory I have is when my brother just older than I and myself did something, no memory of what got us in trouble, but my dad decided that we had both earned a spanking. My brother was 5 or 6, and I was just 4. But my brother was trying hard to be a big boy and not cry, and I watched my dad keep spanking and keep spanking until my brother broke his resolve and cried. Then I saw the delighted, satisfied, pleasure, on my dad's face and realized that he got some kind of sick joy out of making us cry. He proved he was bigger, or whatever, but he sure got some kind of pleasure out of it. So, my obstanite 4 year old self decided that I would NEVER give him the satisfaction of seeing me cry again. So, it was my turn to get spanked, and my dad did the same as he did with my brother, and kept spanking in an effort to make me cry. But I would have died before I gave that a** hat the satisfaction of seeing my cry. But he spanked until he just got tired of it all, probably like 15-30 minutes of pounding my behind with a flat metal ruler. My bottom was actually bleeding before he stopped, but I did not cry. He never spanked me again, which I am not sure was remorse or what.

When people hurt others because they are hurting themselves, it has a different feel to it than when they get some kind of satisfaction out of it. My mother sometimes crossed the and became abusive, but with her, it felt like she was doing the best she knew how in a stressful situation. Like one time she beat my brother just older than me because he started a fire on his bedroom floor, and then went off and left it burning and she was so angry because he knew better, and he could have burned the whole house down.

With my dad, things always felt like he wanted an excuse to hurt us kids because he enjoyed the power. He did things to my mother that were nothing but mean, like dig out her favorite rose bush, and then act happy that she was hurt and angry.

Your dad probably gave up, because it didn't work. He probably switched tactics. It was a long time and I'm sure he didn't say, "alas, that spanking didn't have the desired effect, I'm going to try..."

See, I don't think hurting people hurt people is a rule. I think it's a guideline. To clarify, I'm talking about the intentional knowing they are hurting someone, not the "taking offense" that is something like hurt feelings when someone isn't taking to you, because they're afraid they'll say something they'll regret. There are a lot of ways a person can behave who is hurting and there are a lot of factors at play on this. But people who are hurting can

Drink
Exercise
Eat
Withdraw
Run away
Annoy others by giving service to them (rather than for them)
Drive recklessly on (hopefully) a lonely stretch of road
Put money in a blender, flush it down the toilet, throw it out the window
Clean house
Write in a journal or write a novel
Bury their head in soft upholstery and scream and pound the cushions
Tell jokes


There are lots of possibilities. There are a lot of circumstances that can be behind any given moment. For instance, I'm not sure I'd behave all that differently than your mom in that instant, because there's a combination of pain and blind panic.

So, I think there are a lot of different ways to channel pain and it's possible to change the way we channel that pain, for instance, SaidNobody chooses to act pre-emptively.

[SaidNobody]

Alas,

I went through that too. An older brother(s) decided to make me cry. The one that used a 2x4 actually did, but I survived several without crying, leaving me purple from head to toe. Good times....

But, they were more messed up then I was. I actually help stop a long chain of pain. Pain isn't solid matter. You can dispel it with the right perspective. But left untreated, it will spread.

The look of satisfaction that comes from hurting others is like a twisted sense of justice. They think the person deserves it.