Humility and Pride

[Linked]

"The central feature of pride is enmity—enmity toward God and enmity toward our fellowmen...The antidote for pride is humility—meekness, submissiveness." - Beware of Pride, Ezra Benson

Pride/Humility was always an interesting subject for me at church. I read Ezra Benson's talk "Beware of Pride" in seminary and it really helped me see some of my biases. I would occasionally declare a war on pride where I would try to recognize my pride and stop it. Pride can prevent us from learning and growing by blinding us to the wisdom of another. By being humble and recognizing we don't know everything we can open ourselves to learning and growing.

This leads to an interesting dilemma though; what should we be humble toward? Humility basically admits that you may be wrong, but what is right? What can we trust enough to be humble toward it? In my experience, no person, organization, government, or church has earned that. No god has revealed itself to me, so I don't know how I can trust a god. The only thing I can trust is reality, so I choose to work toward humbling myself to reality.

Throughout the middle ages Aristotle and ancient Greece were held up as the standard for knowledge of the world, but many of those views have been eclipsed. The LDS church tells us that we need to humble ourselves before God, and that God's will is made known through the church and the prophets. But in my view that is false based on the prophetic track record and the realities of human nature. The best tool we have for determining reality is the scientific method where our understanding of reality is constantly questioned, tested, and refined.

[Corsair]

I like this sentiment. I have tried to teach my children how to think, not what to think. One of the best ways I have worke with disagreements in religion, politics, and science is getting others to agree on basic epistemology. "How would be know that one way or another is best?" "How could we test if this idea is better than another?" "How should we determine if this statement is doctrinally (politically, economically, scientfically, financially) sound?"

[blazerb]

One of the best ways I have worke with disagreements in religion, politics, and science is getting others to agree on basic epistemology. "How would be know that one way or another is best?" "How could we test if this idea is better than another?" "How should we determine if this statement is doctrinally (politically, economically, scientfically, financially) sound?"

Easier said than done with many people, but I like the concept.

[Ghost]

This isn't something I've thought of much in recent years, but it is interesting to consider. In the past I guess I've though of humility as deference to a higher power as well as recognition of how little I know. I still experience the latter more than ever.

But what is "real" seems more and more arbitrary or perspective-based to me these days. Losing some of the certainty that comes with adherence to a religious tradition might technically be even greater humility, depending on how you look at that, but is that a virtue or simply a consequence?

[Give It Time]

I happen to think that humility is one of the most important traits a person can have. Humility is a necessary component to learning. My beliefs no longer entirely align with our founder's, but I do believe he had a good answer when he was asked (or asked himself) why we are here. Really, it's almost as good an answer as any. I do believe learning is an integral part of why we are here.

However, the OP makes an excellent point that we need to be careful toward what he are humble. I agree reality and objective facts are about right. I would say truth, but that's not objective. I would say love and relationships, but love and trust can be misplaced and betrayed.

[Mad Jax]

I have never genuinely bought the admonition against pride or the prescription to be humble. Feeling pride in something is what motivates somebody to achieve. When somebody's pride is improperly placed, reality will make sure that person understands soon enough, in which case that person knows full well when humility is in order. There is a place for explaining this to a person when they seem to be missing it, but the church doesn't do it right IMO and neither does any Christian religion.

[Linked]

I like this sentiment. I have tried to teach my children how to think, not what to think. One of the best ways I have worke with disagreements in religion, politics, and science is getting others to agree on basic epistemology. "How would be know that one way or another is best?" "How could we test if this idea is better than another?" "How should we determine if this statement is doctrinally (politically, economically, scientfically, financially) sound?"

Good strategy. I have found when I do that it makes TBMs uncomfortable because epistemology is not on their side.

This isn't something I've thought of much in recent years, but it is interesting to consider. In the past I guess I've though of humility as deference to a higher power as well as recognition of how little I know. I still experience the latter more than ever.

But what is "real" seems more and more arbitrary or perspective-based to me these days. Losing some of the certainty that comes with adherence to a religious tradition might technically be even greater humility, depending on how you look at that, but is that a virtue or simply a consequence?

That definition of humility is a good one. With my disillusionment with religion I don't think there is a singular "higher power" people should defer to; I think that just leads to problems. But recognizing how little we know about some things is a great way to start learning. And we can recognize how much others know about those things. Also, I think one aspect of humility is recognizing when we actually do know something; humility to the reality that we are the expert.

I agree, real is tough. As much as I get frustrated when a religious person says that we can't trust science because it changes, they are not wrong. But if we can bear to accept the uncertainty inherent in our situation then we are free to explore what is probably or probably not real. And if everyone recognizes we are dealing in probabilities, then the discussions can be more civil and rewarding.

I happen to think that humility is one of the most important traits a person can have. Humility is a necessary component to learning. My beliefs no longer entirely align with our founder's, but I do believe he had a good answer when he was asked (or asked himself) why we are here. Really, it's almost as good an answer as any. I do believe learning is an integral part of why we are here.

However, the OP makes an excellent point that we need to be careful toward what he are humble. I agree reality and objective facts are about right. I would say truth, but that's not objective. I would say love and relationships, but love and trust can be misplaced and betrayed.

Good points, thank you. I actually used the word truth as I was writing up the original post, but took it out because the word doesn't mean what I wish it meant. Hopefully we can each find a truth and rewarding love and relationships worthy of some humility.

I have never genuinely bought the admonition against pride or the prescription to be humble. Feeling pride in something is what motivates somebody to achieve. When somebody's pride is improperly placed, reality will make sure that person understands soon enough, in which case that person knows full well when humility is in order. There is a place for explaining this to a person when they seem to be missing it, but the church doesn't do it right IMO and neither does any Christian religion.

I think this is a semantics issue. Benson made the word "pride" a very specific, and negative trait in this talk. Growing up my mom would never use the word "proud". She was never proud of me, she was often pleased with me though. The pride you speak of is not negative, Uchtdorf actually gave a talk a few years ago to set that straight. I still subscribe to the idea that we shouldn't let our biases get in the way of us learning something new, that's how I view the pride/humility stuff anyway.

Other Meanings of Pride

I also remember one interesting side effect of President Benson’s influential talk. For a while it almost became taboo among Church members to say that they were “proud” of their children or their country or that they took “pride” in their work. The very word pride seemed to become an outcast in our vocabulary.

In the scriptures we find plenty of examples of good and righteous people who rejoice in righteousness and at the same time glory in the goodness of God. Our Heavenly Father Himself introduced His Beloved Son with the words “in whom I am well pleased.”2

Alma gloried in the thought that he might “be an instrument in the hands of God.”3 The Apostle Paul gloried in the faithfulness of members of the Church.4 The great missionary Ammon gloried in the success he and his brothers had experienced as missionaries.5

I believe there is a difference between being proud of certain things and being prideful. I am proud of many things. I am proud of my wife. I am proud of our children and grandchildren.

I am proud of the youth of the Church, and I rejoice in their goodness. I am proud of you, my dear and faithful brethren. I am proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with you as a bearer of the holy priesthood of God.

So what is the difference between this kind of feeling and the pride that President Benson called “the universal sin”?6 Pride is sinful, as President Benson so memorably taught, because it breeds hatred or hostility and places us in opposition to God and our fellowmen. At its core, pride is a sin of comparison, for though it usually begins with “Look how wonderful I am and what great things I have done,” it always seems to end with “Therefore, I am better than you.”

[deacon blues]

I think Ezra Benson's talk borrowed some ideas from C.S. Lewis. See Lewis's book "Mere Christianity."

[Not Buying It]

I have never genuinely bought the admonition against pride or the prescription to be humble. Feeling pride in something is what motivates somebody to achieve. When somebody's pride is improperly placed, reality will make sure that person understands soon enough, in which case that person knows full well when humility is in order. There is a place for explaining this to a person when they seem to be missing it, but the church doesn't do it right IMO and neither does any Christian religion.

It's not like the Brethren are all that humble. Sometimes they put on a show of being humble, but their pompous behavior, doctrinaire assertions of authority, and blather about their "apostolic mantle" and stuff belie that. Especially Elder "more righteous than you are" Bednar and Elder "I'm obnoxiously blatant about thinking I deserve to be an apostle" Rasband.