Quinn's latest book on church finances

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Article from the tribune discussing Quinn's new book on finances. Looks like some counter points made by Daymon Smith too. Quinn seems to be taking the faith promoting route on the subject.

http://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/20 ... ots-of-it/

[Palerider]

After reading the article I would agree with Quinn that the salaries GAs receive look comparatively small along side those of corporate America CEOs. But then, once a person has a certain income level, along with a truck load of unseen benefits, a luxurious lifestyle isn't terribly critical. Like Pharisees who fast with disfigured faces so that they can be seen of men. Verily they have their reward.

I think what drives LDS leadership is prestige, power and adulation. They may not be all that influential on the world stage but in their own little pond they are HUGE fish.

[moksha]

It should be noted that Quinn paints a rosier picture of the Church and its leaders with charts and figures than Church apologists do with their denials and obfuscations. Surprise! Honesty can be faith-promoting.

Now for the irony department: For a group always claiming to not be part of the world, they sure do own more than a proportional part of that world.

[Emower]

After reading the article I would agree with Quinn that the salaries GAs receive look comparatively small along side those of corporate America CEOs. But then, once a person has a certain income level, along with a truck load of unseen benefits, a luxurious lifestyle isn't terribly critical. Like Pharisees who fast with disfigured faces so that they can be seen of men. Verily they have their reward.

I think what drives LDS leadership is prestige, power and adulation. They may not be all that influential on the world stage but in their own little pond they are HUGE fish.

Not to threadjack, but this was the issue for me about the salaries. The difference between 20k and 120k is yuuuuge, but the difference between 120k and 220k is much less as it relates to quality of life.

[BriansThoughtMirror]

For a group always claiming to not be part of the world, they sure do own more than a proportional part of that world.

Haha! Nice.

I think this was a pretty fair treatment of church finances. I'm much less appalled by them than I once was. I think the church's financial empire makes sense from an early Mormon doctrinal point of view. They are still trying to build the kingdom of God on the earth. They are being self reliant. They are building something of a powerful cultural force. It's consistent with long held Mormon values. I like how Quinn describes hard work and financial success being just as spiritual as religious things within Mormonism. Brigham Young would have been proud.

It is kind of weird looking, though, from a traditional Christian point of view, or even from a Book of Mormon point of view. I don't think those three views line up in a lot of ways. Also, I am still really bothered by the salary thing. I really believed the church didn't pay its leaders for most of my life. When I go back through church literature, I can see that to someone in the know, they didn't usually LIE about it, they just said things in such a way that allowed us all to think no one was paid. And we saw that as evidence that the church was true and other churches, with their paid clergies, were apostate. I think that was dishonest, and the church profited from our ignorance.

I don't see the church as a greedy empire. I do think they lack a lot of transparency because if you saw all the numbers laid out, it would all look a lot more temporal than spiritual, and the church benefits from not having that image made public.

EDIT-
Here are some fun links about average pastor salaries. I know the GAs aren't really pastors, so I don't know how good of a comparison this is.

http://www1.salary.com/Pastor-Salaries.html
Median US pastor salary = $92,995
Utah pastor salaries range $85,000 - $88,000
(These are the highest estimates I've found)

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christianc ... -churches/
(Written in 2013) Average US pastor salary = $28,000

So, I don't think that $120,000 is exorbitant for a CEO. But it's a lot for clergy, even in UT, unless you are one of those famous megachurch pastors, who make more. Yeah, the whole transparency/misrepresentation without actually lying thing still bothers me.

[Hagoth]

After reading the article I would agree with Quinn that the salaries GAs receive look comparatively small along side those of corporate America CEOs.

I have no problem with these guys being paid. What I do have a problem with is the secrecy and the fact I was taught (and told to teach on my mission) that our church has no paid clergy.

And sure, some of them could be paid much better if they were CEOs of large companies, but some of them came from backgrounds in church education or internal church middle management. Overall they're doing quite well, but for some reason it's sinful and disrespectful to want to know exactly how well. The way they guard this information tells me that they know members would be upset if they knew the whole story. Financial secrecy in non-prophet, I mean non-profit organizations is a red flag

Also, how many other companies give you full salary and benefits until you die? Most GAs have already had a lucrative career elsewhere and now are enjoying a second career as churchmen until death does them part.

[Just This Guy]

I take the whole thing of the stipends being "small" with a major gain of salt.

1. We know of about $120k/yr. How much do we not know of? How much are they paid from the other wings of the church? Unless someone is able to get a copy of one of the 12's full 1040 return, there is still a lot that is being hidden.
2. We know that GAs are given a onetime allotment to clear up any debts. 120K a year goes a lot further when they have paid off your mortgage.
3. $120K/yr is over twice the average income in the US, infact, $120k is more than 94% of the US makes according to the Wall Street Journal based on 2014 income data. A "small" stipend that is more than not only the vast majority of the US makes, but a incredibly large majority of the entire world. Spin it however you want, it is still a lot for most people.

For a church that goes on and on about its lay leadership and the BOM specifically talks about the evils of priestcraft, they are now exactly what they claim is evil.

[wtfluff]

And sure, some of them could be paid much better if they were CEOs of large companies, but some of them came from backgrounds in church education or internal church middle management.

The vast majority (of the Q15 at least) would be retired at this point in their lives, living off of their own retirement savings.

Instead, they are treated like rock stars, and their "modest stipend" comes from normal folks, who should be using that money to save for their own retirement. (Or feed their own f*****g family in some cases.)

[Palerider]

After reading the article I would agree with Quinn that the salaries GAs receive look comparatively small along side those of corporate America CEOs.

I have no problem with these guys being paid. What I do have a problem with is the secrecy and the fact I was taught (and told to teach on my mission) that our church has no paid clergy.

And sure, some of them could be paid much better if they were CEOs of large companies, but some of them came from backgrounds in church education or internal church middle management. Overall they're doing quite well, but for some reason it's sinful and disrespectful to want to know exactly how well. The way they guard this information tells me that they know members would be upset if they knew the whole story. Financial secrecy in non-prophet, I mean non-profit organizations is a red flag

Also, how many other companies give you full salary and benefits until you die? Most GAs have already had a lucrative career elsewhere and now are enjoying a second career as churchmen until death does them part.

I think the Apostle Paul and possibly others recognized that a laborer was worthy of his hire and yet they saw fit not to accept payment other than food and accommodations as they traveled. And that was only when they were available. Sometimes Paul would actually go to work in his profession so as not to be a burden to the church. Imagine one of the LDS apostles doing THAT!

The concept of preaching for filthy lucre has been something that the church has pointed the finger at as a corruption in other churches since it's inception. So it only seems "judicious" in leaderships' minds to quietly pay a comfortable living to themselves (which comes from those who struggle economically) while inferring that the church has an "economically virtuous" non-paid clergy.

I've actually been thinking lately of writing a book called: The Mormons: Having their cake and eating it too.

There are SO many places where they do this Illogical thing of having it both ways.

1. Joseph Smith was a near idiot and couldn't have possibly written the BoM yet he was one of the most "intelligent" men of his generation.

2. Listen to every word of conference because it's the word of the Lord to his people...except when one of them is speaking as a man which will be edited out of your Ensigns. And we're not going to tell you when that happens.

3. The BoM is a true historical book... except it isn't... and we have archeological evidence that it is historical....except there isn't any evidence... and it shows a lack of faith if you look for evidence.

The list is much longer as you all know. I just get tired of the church having things both ways as long as it suits their agenda.

[GoodBoy]

The GA's salaries are one thing, the perks and benefits they get are another. Do they need to spend their salaries on the normal things that most of us need to pay for, or are many of those things provided for them so that their salaries can go directly into savings?

Does anyone know if they get provided a vehicle, gas cards, tuition waivers for their kids at church schools, travel expenses for them and their spouses paid for, health care, housing, tithing, taxes, etc.?

[moksha]

So, I don't think that $120,000 is exorbitant for a CEO. But it's a lot for clergy, even in UT, unless you are one of those famous megachurch pastors, who make more.

Lenny Bruce once said that any pastor who owned more than two suits was a huckster. While not going to that extreme, I do suspect that any pastor who has his own private jet is a huckster. Some of the Televangelists brag about owning more than one jet. So, kudos to the LDS Authorities who have never sought their own private jets.

[Give It Time]

So, I don't think that $120,000 is exorbitant for a CEO. But it's a lot for clergy, even in UT, unless you are one of those famous megachurch pastors, who make more.

Lenny Bruce once said that any pastor who owned more than two suits was a huckster. While not going to that extreme, I do suspect that any pastor who has his own private jet is a huckster. Some of the Televangelists brag about owning more than one jet. So, kudos to the LDS Authorities who have never sought their own private jets.

Yet.

They do travel a lot.

[blazerb]

The vast majority (of the Q15 at least) would be retired at this point in their lives, living off of their own retirement savings.

Instead, they are treated like rock stars, and their "modest stipend" comes from normal folks, who should be using that money to save for their own retirement. (Or feed their own f*****g family in some cases.)

For me, it was worth noting how much money a GA would have to have in the bank in order to guarantee $120k/year with a COLA each year from retirement savings. I believe financial planners say you can withdraw about 4% of what you have in the retirement account each year. If the account is invested wisely and conservatively, that will allow the rest to build up enough so that what you withdraw will stay about constant when corrected for inflation. So, a person would have to have $3 million in the retirement account in order to have what the GA's have. That's not counting the extra perks like health care, education for grandchildren, etc. I think GA's are very well compensated.

[1smartdodog]

I would be interested how much they pay for health insurance and medical expenses. I suspect nothing but I could be wrong. That is what is kill many people in the US

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

I would be interested how much they pay for health insurance and medical expenses. I suspect nothing but I could be wrong. That is what is kill many people in the US

The church runs its own insurance company DMBA for all employees and missionaries. Whether the GAs pay premiums out of the stipend is a good question.