This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
alas wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:43 pm
Then in primary we heard how it was so wonderful that Joseph was 14 when God selected him as a prophet. Such a young boy would be open and not have made up his mind....bla bla bla. I look at the boys who were 14. I was so unimpressed. They were arrogant, spoiled, opiated. Hardly the kind of person who would be humble and teachable. It was not "wonderful" that God would pick a 14 year old boy. It was stupid. I tried to imagine God appearing to a 14 year old boy, and all I could imagine was this boy throwing a spit wad at God, just before telling a fart joke. Yeah, a 14 year old boy can be serious for long enough to hear God, when they can't pay attention for 30 seconds in class.
I just could not believe that God would pick a 14 year old boy, because that meant God was stupid. Never got over that feeling.
Me Too! And sometimes I'd question it and get "kids were more mature in those days"...which also covered getting married at 14
I was recently asked to ensure that 'the priesthood' took a weekly assignment to put the foldable chairs out in preparation for SS. It made my head hurt. (1) it was over-engineering - each member was perfectly capable of grabbing a chair to sit on (2) Why are the sisters thought to be so feeble and the men so gallant? Ridiculous, and to be candid: insulting.
Luckily a few weeks passed and now everyone pitches.
At the halfway home. I'm a full-grown man. But I'm not afraid to cry.
MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:51 pm
Alas posted somewhere about fMH being dead. It pretty much is, but I’ve been thinking a lot about different feminist issues recently, and so I may post some of them here once in a while. Here's the first, and I realize that many people may not agree with it, and that's okay.
MerrieMiss,
I read this post with mixed feelings. I really admire that you could see this an articulated the way you did. I think my group was perhaps a little different. And yet the same. As young men we set up the meetings. One of the elders would usually take us out one hour before the meeting and we would set it up. The women simply didn't come with us.
I don't think that they felt helpless. But I know that as men we felt as if we had something to make up for. That there was some sort of double standard that we had to repent for or balance the karma for. So whether the women helped or not on any given event, the men always felt obligated to try and lighten their load. We would do all of the carrying and lifting. But I think it was because of some sort of obligation we felt because of some sort of double standard we kept.
MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:51 pm
Alas posted somewhere about fMH being dead. It pretty much is, but I’ve been thinking a lot about different feminist issues recently, and so I may post some of them here once in a while. Here's the first, and I realize that many people may not agree with it, and that's okay.
MerrieMiss,
I read this post with mixed feelings. I really admire that you could see this an articulated the way you did. I think my group was perhaps a little different. And yet the same. As young men we set up the meetings. One of the elders would usually take us out one hour before the meeting and we would set it up. The women simply didn't come with us.
I don't think that they felt helpless. But I know that as men we felt as if we had something to make up for. That there was some sort of double standard that we had to repent for or balance the karma for. So whether the women helped or not on any given event, the men always felt obligated to try and lighten their load. We would do all of the carrying and lifting. But I think it was because of some sort of obligation we felt because of some sort of double standard we kept.
I'm not trying to speak for you, but my impression that if there was anxiety over the women doing too much, it was about sex. Either guilt for sexual fantasies or desire to act them out and the whole chair thing was a modern day dragon slaying to either win the favor of the fair maiden or seek forgiveness from the Lord for lustful thoughts about the fair maiden.
I've also known quite a few men who have shown a fair amount of sour grapes about doing all the heavy lifting while the women gossip. Of course, they take it out on the women, rather than the patriarchy.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren
Give It Time wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:54 pm
I'm not trying to speak for you, but my impression that if there was anxiety over the women doing too much, it was about sex. Either guilt for sexual fantasies or desire to act them out and the whole chair thing was a modern day dragon slaying to either win the favor of the fair maiden or seek forgiveness from the Lord for lustful thoughts about the fair maiden.
I've also known quite a few men who have shown a fair amount of sour grapes about doing all the heavy lifting while the women gossip. Of course, they take it out on the women, rather than the patriarchy.
Thank you for not trying to speak for me. That can taste like foot sometimes. The whole sexual fantasies thing doesn't really make sense to me. That was never quite my motive for acting the gentleman. I was more of a "put in my seven years" type then the dragon slayer. I never really saw anyone trying to take their frustration out on the women. and if I had lustful thoughts of the maidens I didn't really feel bad about it. However, I ddidn't share them with the elders.
But, honestly, the whole "Curse of Eve" never sat easy with me. I remember telling a friend, "if our women folk are cursed, why the hell are we not demanding God lift the curse?" (That was back when I actually thought we could do that sort of thing.) Turns out, the whole "Curse of Eve" thing is very convenient for the authorities. Honestly, I think it was thrr double standard that killed it for me. I couldn't play along.
Give It Time wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:54 pm
I'm not trying to speak for you, but my impression that if there was anxiety over the women doing too much, it was about sex. Either guilt for sexual fantasies or desire to act them out and the whole chair thing was a modern day dragon slaying to either win the favor of the fair maiden or seek forgiveness from the Lord for lustful thoughts about the fair maiden.
I've also known quite a few men who have shown a fair amount of sour grapes about doing all the heavy lifting while the women gossip. Of course, they take it out on the women, rather than the patriarchy.
Thank you for not trying to speak for me. That can taste like foot sometimes. The whole sexual fantasies thing doesn't really make sense to me. That was never quite my motive for acting the gentleman. I was more of a "put in my seven years" type then the dragon slayer. I never really saw anyone trying to take their frustration out on the women. and if I had lustful thoughts of the maidens I didn't really feel bad about it. However, I ddidn't share them with the elders.
But, honestly, the whole "Curse of Eve" never sat easy with me. I remember telling a friend, "if our women folk are cursed, why the hell are we not demanding God lift the curse?" (That was back when I actually thought we could do that sort of thing.) Turns out, the whole "Curse of Eve" thing is very convenient for the authorities. Honestly, I think it was thrr double standard that killed it for me. I couldn't play along.
I figured it didn't apply to you. Those were just the reports from the men who said something. There were others who may have said something out of earshot or not said anything, at all.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren
I was only an active member for a short time, but I've spent time around lots of lds families and of course have gone to activities, etc. and I must say I think this is not necessarily a mormon thing. I have certainly noticed this in some women in the church, but it seems to come down to the individual. I never really thought of it as a "childish" thing to do, that's interesting observation. I suppose that's the case for some, but some women I remember from church were always staying busy with clean up, putting things away (including chairs and tables) and were always so busy it seemed. I do notice some women do put themselves or are put in a position of "helplessness" as you put it. I see that more with women who decided not to pursue education and have no experience with working in a traditional setting. I always wonder what would happen if their husbands were to pass away suddenly. Probably the family would help out, I don't know. I grew up in a family / environment where you take care of yourself and don't expect a hand out, don't expect others to give you things or help you out and you do as much on your own as possible. It seems the church does teach this, with the "self-reliance" talks and whatnot, but I also notice some people depend heavily on others. Again though, I think this comes down to upbringing and personality more than the church.
