Forgiveness

[Give It Time]

I hope you'll forgive me, but I used to listen to Dr. Laura. While my views on her have certainly changed, she said something I frequently paraphrase. It's usually said to someone who is finally opening their eyes to the toxicity in their relationship.

What you want is a Irish Setter. What you have is a crocodile in your pool.

Usually followed by, Let's call it what it is so we can deal with truth.

People who have been through difficult circumstances at the hands of others are frequently told to forgive. I kind of think it is frequently the succor of the clueless and uncomfortable who haven't yet figured out a simple hug is all that's needed.

I can tell you, I've been on the receiving end if those words over recent years and I find those words inconsiderate and annoying.

First response from me: how do you know I haven't forgiven? When I talk about this offender, I simply tell the story. I don't get upset, yell or cry. I didn't introduce the story. You asked me how this principle applied in my life and this story illustrates how this principle misfired. I wish I had a different story to share, but I can't unlive my life for you. Accepting the fact that a person is how they are and it's best not to have them in my life is not being unforgiving or holding a grudge.

It is possible to forgive the crocodile for presenting himself as an Irish Setter. It's possible to forgive myself for being wilfully blind to the fact that the Irish Setter was actually a crocodile, but the fact remains that it is a crocodile. The best thing to do is act on that information.

My second reaction is that if felt like the person telling me to forgive was trying to shut me down.

Again, this was another one of those instances of "and how does this principle apply in your life, Sister Time." I answer the question truthfully and get the fofgiveness line. I think I'll start saying no comment.

It was during this time period when I started hearing about never telling a traumatized person to forgive. Amen. Cause, I gotta tell ya, I'm not a violent person, but I sure want to smack the person who tells me to forgive in the teeth.

Then, there's this new idea of forgiving so you don't take up that offense, as well. I've been thinking about this. I don't think it holds true. I think it's not only possible to be angry at someone for having mistreated you in a certain way and not engage in that behavior, yourself, but I think it's extremely likely to not engage in that behavior.

I did recently read a spiritual thought that forgiveness is for us and not our tormentors and that if we don't forgive, we remain a victim. Now, that thought, I consider interesting and will cogitate on it, awhile. In fact, it's part of why I wrote this post.

Finally, the bishop and I met, today. He prayed on my behalf. He prayed that I would forgive. First time he's said that word to me and he knows I don't like it. What he usually says is "unrepented sin".

Awhile back on NOM 1.0, a wise poster pointed out that Mormons don't want healthy forgiveness that is the type where the agrieved let's go of the pain for healthy reasons and makes healthy choices from there. Mormons want reconciliation and they want it without apologies or repentance on the part of the perpetrator. In other words, Mormons want things swept under the rug.

I've been thinking about my bishop's prayer, today. There really is only one person I am aware of that I am mad at: my former bishop. He really did a number on my life and the lives of my children. Yet, not forgiving the bastard does feel like I'm letting him live in my head, rent free. It's my work to do. I can forgive when I feel ready, but reconciliation is another matter.

If I were to ask my present bishop what forgiveness from me looked like, I'm sure he'd say that I returned to full fellowship and participation. Thing is. I have forgiven the ward, for the most part. I recognize they were just following the leader. I've forgiven the church, but the church is a certain type of animal when I was expecting another. Said animal is dangerous to me. I can forgive all the bishop wants, but that won't change the nature of the beast and the fact that I will never be fool enough to climb in the cage without protection, again. They're lucky I'm getting in the cage, at all.

[Anon70]

Interesting post. Reminded me of a time I was told to forgive a woman who had gossiped about me and my family. Everything she had said was a lie. She was not held accountable--she was upset with me for not accepting a calling in her auxiliary (my first ever "no" when I had other callings, worked full time AND was in school for my master's).

Apparently her resentment justified the gossip but I had no justification for calling her out on it. The bishop was her husband and he said I had to forgive her. I said sure but she also has to apologize and make it right. He disagreed.

So I refused to meet with his wife to "forgive" her. I was absolutely polite and cordial in public with her. The next three times the bishop spoke he spoke on how it doesn't matter how you are treated, the greater responsibility is on you to forgive. Not on the transgressors to repent or ask for forgiveness. Three times.

I did forgive but this woman has done nothing but continued on her way in life as a vicious gossip and toxic personality. How did my forgiveness help her?

[Give It Time]

Interesting post. Reminded me of a time I was told to forgive a woman who had gossiped about me and my family. Everything she had said was a lie. She was not held accountable--she was upset with me for not accepting a calling in her auxiliary (my first ever "no" when I had other callings, worked full time AND was in school for my master's).

Apparently her resentment justified the gossip but I had no justification for calling her out on it. The bishop was her husband and he said I had to forgive her. I said sure but she also has to apologize and make it right. He disagreed.

So I refused to meet with his wife to "forgive" her. I was absolutely polite and cordial in public with her. The next three times the bishop spoke he spoke on how it doesn't matter how you are treated, the greater responsibility is on you to forgive. Not on the transgressors to repent or ask for forgiveness. Three times.

I did forgive but this woman has done nothing but continued on her way in life as a vicious gossip and toxic personality. How did my forgiveness help her?

That is an excellent question.

[Give It Time]

This is a new post, because Anon70's question should stand alone.

I once knew a fraudster. He'd defraud members and skip town with a cackle. He'd go underground about three years and then crawl back out to try to do business with his previous victims. When those victims told him they'd have nothing to do with him, he say, "But you're Mormons, you're supposed to forgive."

[Give It Time]

More thoughts on forgiveness.

My sister once tried to frame me. Not for a crime, but for something that definitely would have destroyed my relationship with my father. When I called her on it, she said, "Give! I'm so sorry! I would never do anything to hurt you!"

I was all WTF?! But you did!

And what really pissed me off about the apology is I now looked like the bad person if I didn't accept it.

My sister is a big one for quoting the scriptures that we must forgive everyone.

It was this incident, that fraudster, the people who've tried to shut me down by telling me to forgive and a few other incidents of stinking rotten apologies that I've come to the conclusion that if it is one person telling another person to forgive, that one person is trying to get that other person under their thumb. And I've believed that one for awhile.

Having said all that, forgiveness is for the forgiver and not the forgiven and I really do think we need new words to differentiate the types of forgiveness there are.

One other thing. The same person who said to forgive so you don't perpetually remain a victim also said you'd be a fool to forgive a person the third time. Interesting. Clarity or shifting the goal posts? I'm not sure which.

/end until I process more.

[alas]

People use the concept of forgiveness to make people be quiet about things that make them uncomfortable to hear about. People use the concept of forgiveness to sweep their own misbehavior under the rug.

I actually used to tell my clients that anybody telling them to forgive was doing it for themselves and not for my client. I used to tell them that working on healing is really working on forgiveness. I would point out that all the stories in church about "people who refused to forgive" we're actually about people who had not been allowed to heal from their injuries and are walking around still wounded. It s the pain of the wound that causes the anger and bitterness.

People can "forgive" before they heal. I saw it all the time with child sexual abuse victims. They forgave the perpetrator by blaming themselves. In therapy I had to bring them back around to their anger, get them to unforgive, by holding the perpetrator accountable.

People misunderstand, like you said, that forgiveness and reconciliation are two very different things. They misunderstand that a person does not decide to forgive. They decide to heal and then forgiveness comes automatically. After they heal the injuries.

Religion with its emphasis on forgiveness was not invented by therapists. No, the therapists would have said don't worry about forgiving. Just worry about healing the injury and everything else will fall into place.

[Anon70]

People use the concept of forgiveness to make people be quiet about things that make them uncomfortable to hear about. People use the concept of forgiveness to sweep their own misbehavior under the rug.

I actually used to tell my clients that anybody telling them to forgive was doing it for themselves and not for my client. I used to tell them that working on healing is really working on forgiveness. I would point out that all the stories in church about "people who refused to forgive" we're actually about people who had not been allowed to heal from their injuries and are walking around still wounded. It s the pain of the wound that causes the anger and bitterness.

People can "forgive" before they heal. I saw it all the time with child sexual abuse victims. They forgave the perpetrator by blaming themselves. In therapy I had to bring them back around to their anger, get them to unforgive, by holding the perpetrator accountable.

People misunderstand, like you said, that forgiveness and reconciliation are two very different things. They misunderstand that a person does not decide to forgive. They decide to heal and then forgiveness comes automatically. After they heal the injuries.

Religion with its emphasis on forgiveness was not invented by therapists. No, the therapists would have said don't worry about forgiving. Just worry about healing the injury and everything else will fall into place.

OHMYGOSH I love this! I wish you were my therapist! Lol

[Give It Time]

People use the concept of forgiveness to make people be quiet about things that make them uncomfortable to hear about. People use the concept of forgiveness to sweep their own misbehavior under the rug.

I actually used to tell my clients that anybody telling them to forgive was doing it for themselves and not for my client. I used to tell them that working on healing is really working on forgiveness. I would point out that all the stories in church about "people who refused to forgive" we're actually about people who had not been allowed to heal from their injuries and are walking around still wounded. It s the pain of the wound that causes the anger and bitterness.

People can "forgive" before they heal. I saw it all the time with child sexual abuse victims. They forgave the perpetrator by blaming themselves. In therapy I had to bring them back around to their anger, get them to unforgive, by holding the perpetrator accountable.

People misunderstand, like you said, that forgiveness and reconciliation are two very different things. They misunderstand that a person does not decide to forgive. They decide to heal and then forgiveness comes automatically. After they heal the injuries.

Religion with its emphasis on forgiveness was not invented by therapists. No, the therapists would have said don't worry about forgiving. Just worry about healing the injury and everything else will fall into place.

I agree religion tries, but is behind the times on this issue.

This is excellent assessment and definitely a better place to put my energy. Thank you.

[Give It Time]

I've been thinking about the incident that triggered this thread. First of all, I'd just been coming across the concept of forgiveness, lately.

But then...

The bishop prayed before opening our conversation. He prayed that there'd be some sort of service the ward could do for me and he prayed that I'd forgive.

His praying for my forgiving caught my attention. We had discussed, at length, the importance of not telling abuse victims to forgive and I verified for him that I didn't appreciate that.

I think, in hindsight, that he put the "F" word in a prayer, rather than direct counsel to me, intentionally. See, he isn't saying it to me directly.

I don't recall his petitioning the Lord for, nor inquiring as to the progress of my healing and the healing is what had launched our conversations in the first place.

He's has either been subsumed back into the machine or he was never truly unplugged from it. My guess is the latter.

So, all these well meaning and anywhere from vaguely all the way up to extremely controlling people that may or may not mean well are just going to be shown the door. When I see or hear the word "forgiveness" I will simply replace it with the word "healing". Cause you know why? That letting go happens when you aren't looking. You just look at your hands and realize you dropped the pain when you were busy with something else.

[alas]

I've been thinking about the incident that triggered this thread. First of all, I'd just been coming across the concept of forgiveness, lately.

But then...

The bishop prayed before opening our conversation. He prayed that there'd be some sort of service the ward could do for me and he prayed that I'd forgive.

His praying for my forgiving caught my attention. We had discussed, at length, the importance of not telling abuse victims to forgive and I verified for him that I didn't appreciate that.

I think, in hindsight, that he put the "F" word in a prayer, rather than direct counsel to me, intentionally. See, he isn't saying it to me directly.

I don't recall his petitioning the Lord for, nor inquiring as to the progress of my healing and the healing is what had launched our conversations in the first place.

He's has either been subsumed back into the machine or he was never truly unplugged from it. My guess is the latter.

So, all these well meaning and anywhere from vaguely all the way up to extremely controlling people that may or may not mean well are just going to be shown the door. When I see or hear the word "forgiveness" I will simply replace it with the word "healing". Cause you know why? That letting go happens when you aren't looking. You just look at your hands and realize you dropped the pain when you were busy with something else.

I found it helpful to tell people, "I am working toward forgiveness by working on healing the injuries." That simple statement help them refocus on what I might actually need, rather than pushing the false idea that forgiveness causes healing, it makes them refocus on the idea that it is healing that leads to forgiveness. If that doesn't work, I reminded them that BIG injuries, such as compound fractures need medical attention, that time alone and forgiveness alone do not heal them properly. They need medical attention.

And while spiritual injuries, like the crappy way your ward treated you, need spiritual help to heal, bishops often do not know what kind of help you need to heal.

The part of reconciliation people don't get, is that trust has to be earned. Forgiveness does not restore trust. It takes restitution to regain trust. So, how do you reconcile with your ward? Your ward needs to step up and show some genuine remorse, it needs to reach out with love, and be patient while you learn how to trust them again.

I never got there. I still cannot trust Mormon women, because I had some judge me as "having seduced my father." I have forgiven them, but I am not willing to put myself in the line of fire. My bishop's response was to make that kind of treatment my fault by telling me that I should never tell anyone about the abuse, and use the example of people should not talk about "past sin" such as if they committed adultery and have repented of it, they have no reason to ever talk about it. So, he revealed that no matter how often he told me it was not my fault, he still treated it like it was my sin. If the people who are supposedly helping tell you things like that, how do you trust anyone ever again? And, one of the women who told me that was his wife.

[Give It Time]

I've been thinking about the incident that triggered this thread. First of all, I'd just been coming across the concept of forgiveness, lately.

But then...

The bishop prayed before opening our conversation. He prayed that there'd be some sort of service the ward could do for me and he prayed that I'd forgive.

His praying for my forgiving caught my attention. We had discussed, at length, the importance of not telling abuse victims to forgive and I verified for him that I didn't appreciate that.

I think, in hindsight, that he put the "F" word in a prayer, rather than direct counsel to me, intentionally. See, he isn't saying it to me directly.

I don't recall his petitioning the Lord for, nor inquiring as to the progress of my healing and the healing is what had launched our conversations in the first place.

He's has either been subsumed back into the machine or he was never truly unplugged from it. My guess is the latter.

So, all these well meaning and anywhere from vaguely all the way up to extremely controlling people that may or may not mean well are just going to be shown the door. When I see or hear the word "forgiveness" I will simply replace it with the word "healing". Cause you know why? That letting go happens when you aren't looking. You just look at your hands and realize you dropped the pain when you were busy with something else.

I found it helpful to tell people, "I am working toward forgiveness by working on healing the injuries." That simple statement help them refocus on what I might actually need, rather than pushing the false idea that forgiveness causes healing, it makes them refocus on the idea that it is healing that leads to forgiveness. If that doesn't work, I reminded them that BIG injuries, such as compound fractures need medical attention, that time alone and forgiveness alone do not heal them properly. They need medical attention.

And while spiritual injuries, like the crappy way your ward treated you, need spiritual help to heal, bishops often do not know what kind of help you need to heal.

The part of reconciliation people don't get, is that trust has to be earned. Forgiveness does not restore trust. It takes restitution to regain trust. So, how do you reconcile with your ward? Your ward needs to step up and show some genuine remorse, it needs to reach out with love, and be patient while you learn how to trust them again.

I never got there. I still cannot trust Mormon women, because I had some judge me as "having seduced my father." I have forgiven them, but I am not willing to put myself in the line of fire. My bishop's response was to make that kind of treatment my fault by telling me that I should never tell anyone about the abuse, and use the example of people should not talk about "past sin" such as if they committed adultery and have repented of it, they have no reason to ever talk about it. So, he revealed that no matter how often he told me it was not my fault, he still treated it like it was my sin. If the people who are supposedly helping tell you things like that, how do you trust anyone ever again? And, one of the women who told me that was his wife.

Wow! I'm sorry for that cruddy treatment. Know what? I used to be like that. I used to say and do those things. I was unbelievably clueless.

Thank you for the words to use when people push forgiveness. That should help politely shut down the conversation. I told the bishop that a lot of the reason I've stayed away was because the way the previous Bishop handled things indicated the church is fine with abuse. After that, it was interesting to see how things changed. People who had been cold and mean acted sorry. People who'd been kind acted hurt.

I was thinking about that service. It is particularly about a battle in the early part of the divorce. If I let them do this service, then a lot of the breach will be perceived as healed. However, there will be an implied obligation that I then become fully active. The problem with the service is that it would be done in a Mormon way. It would probably be done by people who have no idea what is behind the battle. If this were about healing, the previous Bishop would be standing on my front porch, palms up, seeking my forgiveness. He would have behind him all the people still living in the area who were party to the mistreatment. No, this isn't about forgiveness and healing. This is fellowship to bring back a sheep who is misrepresented to be lost and deceived.

So, the present Bishop may mean well from the Mormon paradigm. The problem is it's the Mormon paradigm and he's refusing to lift his head out of the handbook. What it would take for healing is logical, is difficult, but is possible, but they'd rather put a band-aid on that proverbial broken leg and then chastise me when I get upset that the proper healing methods weren't utilized. Pardon me, but it's my leg.

[alas]

The problem with needing repentance from the old bishop is that he is not sorry. Your current bishop is sorry his predecessor was a jerk. Which isn't a great situation for establishing trust.

In the book Forgive and Forget, the author says you cannot forgive an institution. He says you have to break it down one person at a time. So, don't try to rebuild trust in the whole institution, but in individual people. Can you trust your current bishop to be a friend? Can you trust *enough* of the women in Relief Society to have friends? Can you set boundaries with the specific people that you cannot trust?

OR, do you think that the problems in the church are systematic?

I am not sure I agree with the author of Forgive and Forget. Well, at least as far as reconciliation with the institution. You can forgive the people one at a time, and still judge the institution as a whole as in need of forgiveness, the kind of forgiveness you do from far far away. See, I think institutions have cultures. Cultures can be just like people, they can be basically kind or selfish. They can be abusive. Now, not everybody in an institution will be abusive if the institution has a culture that is abusive, but enough of them will adopt the culture of the larger organization.

OK, an example away from the church. Incest families are DYSFUCTIONAL. The mother not only fails to protect her child, she is not someone her daughter can go to for protection. Also, she is responsible for some of the family dynamics that make the father think in terms of the daughter being sexually available to him. So, the family is an institution. A sick institution. Does the victim forgive the father for his sins, then the mother for hers? What about reconciliation? If the mother stays with the abuser after she knows, then she sides with the abuser against his victim. The siblings are frequently angry with the victim for telling and breaking up the family. They are also siding with the abuser and saying the victim should have just tolerated the abuse. So, does the victim reconcile with her mother? What about her siblings? They are all part of the same sick system.

Some victims do reconcile with their mother and siblings, others cut their family out of their lives forever. Each family has more or less of the sick culture. Some mothers knew about the abuse and did nothing. Some siblings knew. Some victims got enough love from family that it was worth reconciling, others felt like they lost nothing by cutting off their family.

So, back to your ward. Only you can decide if you can reconcile with your ward, or if you forgive from far away.

Me, I decided the church as a whole is toxic *for me.* The culture is more abusive than *I* want to be part of. But then, I don't get anything out of being part of it. And I don't have children to stay active because I want to see them married. But you might get social or other benefits out of it. I tried for a long time trying to set good boundaries to try to stay part. I survived long enough to see my son married. Eventually, I decided I just could not do it. Reconciliation failed.

[Give It Time]

I've been thinking there could be a service exchange. The ward does the service and I teach a lesson on abuse. Not that they'd go for it, but I decided to prepare a lesson, just in case. It's how I found the reference I use in the smoking gun thread. I've been dealing with DV that led to loss of life. If I tossed aside that life simply for the sake of chores I can do myself or have hired out, then it would be a very long time before I could face myself in the mirror. I decided not to go with the service exchange. I hired contractors to do the work. They will do the work well. They will do quality work. The only expectation from me is that the funds will clear. Which they will. If there's a problem with the work, I have recourse.

I have been thinking about healing vs forgiving in my situation, this afternoon. My younger son hasn't come out and said it, but I don't think he has a testimony. I don't know where my current bishop's heart is. I do think he is a company man and, at the end of the day, I would be foolish to trust him. I think if I want to heal from the pain this ward has inflicted, I believe it will be best done from a distance. A move is in order. I think pulling away from the church, for awhile may be in order. That's so I don't hear the doctrines that gave the people in the ward permission view me the way they did. I wish I could pull away from extended family, friends and Facebook, because they'll all bring their reminders. As I write this, some sort of non-LDS mission that takes me someplace completely new and has me nearly completely incommunicado with my old life for 18 months to 2 years would be ideal.

I don't have to go the whole distance, but I can do it one step at a time. Moving, preferably out of state would be the biggest bang for the buck. After that, one step at a time.