A Turn for the Worse

[Linked]

Dang. I just wrote a literal novel. Like 10-12 paragraphs. But NOM logged me out and I lost it all. There are not enough swear words in the world right now. I may try to revisit. But damn. Couldn't save it by hitting back on the browser. SOB.

Oh man. I am sorry, that is super frustrating. I would love to read what you wrote, but I understand if it's not in the cards.

Always use Ctrl+C with long posts

[Enoch Witty]

Always use Ctrl+C with long posts

I usually do! Then everything goes right for so long that I get comfortable, and this is what happens. And get this: it just happened again, but this time I did press control-C. But then I fat-fingered after pressing control-A and pressed control-C again rather than control-V. I was about to lose my f***ing mind. But, tender mercy, this time I had logged back in so I was able to recover my post using the back button.

All that being said, here's an alternate version, quite different from the original version in form but mostly similar in function. Perhaps a little more pointed, because having that first post erased put me in a more direct, less wishy-washy mood.

Why are you still married, Linked? You don't have to answer me, but ask yourself. From my perspective here on NOM, you're still married because of the kids. You don't often have nice things to say about your wife, other than that she's a good mom. It does sound like you don't share many interests, don't have a good sex life, and enjoy time separate more than time together. I haven't had divorce in my immediate family, so I can't speak from experience on what it will be like for your kids or yourself. But I can tell you that kids can tell when parents aren't getting along. It leads to them walking on eggshells and possibly blaming themselves for their parents' disputes. Even though a divorce might initially cause all kinds of confusion and angst for your kids, it might (only you can know for sure) be better for them to have parents who live separately and happily than parents who live together but unhappily. All I have here is the perspective from what you've shared on NOM. And frankly, it seems to me like you don't really like your wife. Is it really better to stay married for the kids? Obviously there's a lot of logistics and personal circumstances at play, so I'm not advocating one way or the other... but you don't give the appearance that there's much positivity in the marriage.

Maybe (hopefully?) what I've written above does not ring true at all. Maybe it even offends you a little. That's good news! Maybe you love your wife more than you let on, and NOM is just the place you come to vent. I recognize the importance of venting, but if what I've written above rubs you the wrong way, I suggest venting in a more positive way.

My wife and I are lucky in that we are both peacekeeper personality types, so we rarely fight, and when we do, we're usually mutually apologizing within 10-15 minutes. To some extent we're extremely lucky based on our matching personality types, but I also credit our generally harmonious marriage to one thing (unspoken between us) I've made a point of doing and that I believe my wife does too: we never talk badly about each other behind each other's backs.

This includes mental complaints too. It's possible to let a person's quirks and idiosyncrasies drive you crazy. I had a couple roommates with habits that just drove me absolutely bonkers. But when I find my wife doing similar things (for example, loading the dishwasher *gasp* the wrong way), I just shrug it off. It's not that I'm just accepting of her behavior that annoys me, it's that I have a mental idea that we are a team and that makes it a non-issue, legitimately. In my case, it's largely mindset about how I view the relationship. I don't honestly know how I got there. I certainly did not get along with ex-gfs or most family this well. But I think it's in large part that I don't complain to others about my wife.

Voicing complaints about your spouse to others and having them offer sympathy can feel nice, but it also creates an "us versus spouse" kind of situation with the person you're confiding in. Having them offer sympathy is natural, but it also reinforces that the behavior of your spouse is negative. In some situations, like abuse or unhealthy manipulation, a third-party may be necessary to help the abused see the light and get out of the relationship. But in my opinion, complaining to friends or family or internet strangers about relatively minor stuff in a normal, non-toxic relationship only builds resentment.

Sometimes I do need to vent, or to seek advice on a marital issue from a third party. When I do, it's all about framing. I try to present things positively, not make my wife the bad guy in the story, and focus on what I can change, rather than how to get her to change.

This is a lot of relationship advice from someone who is totally unqualified to give it, but let's go back to how I started: from what you share on NOM, I honestly wonder why you aren't divorced yet. What is your marriage offering you or your wife or your kids? If your marriage is actually pretty good and NOM is just the place you come to vent, consider the implications there. More and more people are going to start wondering why you aren't divorcing this lady, and voicing that, and it's going to get in your head, and then you're going to get divorced.

If things at home are honestly as shaky and unpleasant as you make them seem from your posts, I mean, that's pretty much where I'm at: Talk to a lawyer. Get a divorce. You'll be better off. Your posts make it sound like your wife is trying to leverage the marriage to manipulate you into doing exactly what she wants. Why let her? You have just as much right to that leverage as she does.

...But I'm experienced enough in life to know that there are two sides to every story, and that there's a good chance that you have lots of good times with your wife that you don't really share here, then you have an issue and come here to vent, so we only get the negatives and not the positives. But then again, you do post positive stories... of when your wife leaves town.

I dunno, man. I'm a hopeless romantic that views divorces as rather sad, so it's not really my nature to be like, "Hey, get a divorce." But what you've shared here on NOM makes me wonder what your marriage offers to you or your family. If the answer to that is "lots," I'd consider making a point of posting twice as many positive stories as negative. What you choose to share may change your mindset altogether. But if all you have in you to share is negative stories and problems... I think that says a lot, man.

Good luck. I am by no means an expert at life, so consider my advice worth what you paid for it.

[Red Ryder]

Ouch Enoch Witty! That's harsh... I thought my wife was the only one that loads the dishwasher wrong! I shouldn't vent my complaints on New Order Dishwasher any more.

Kidding aside, there's a lot of honest introspective work that we have to do after a faith transition. Continued living with a TBM spouse is one of the hardest ones too. It takes a lot of courage to make life changing decisions. Give yourself a timeline, make a plan to improve your marriage situation, and make adjustments accordingly. If you're not progressing than maybe it is time to divorce.

[Linked]

Always use Ctrl+C with long posts

I usually do! Then everything goes right for so long that I get comfortable, and this is what happens. And get this: it just happened again, but this time I did press control-C. But then I fat-fingered after pressing control-A and pressed control-C again rather than control-V. I was about to lose my f***ing mind. But, tender mercy, this time I had logged back in so I was able to recover my post using the back button.

All that being said, here's an alternate version, quite different from the original version in form but mostly similar in function. Perhaps a little more pointed, because having that first post erased put me in a more direct, less wishy-washy mood.

Why are you still married, Linked? You don't have to answer me, but ask yourself. From my perspective here on NOM, you're still married because of the kids. You don't often have nice things to say about your wife, other than that she's a good mom. It does sound like you don't share many interests, don't have a good sex life, and enjoy time separate more than time together. I haven't had divorce in my immediate family, so I can't speak from experience on what it will be like for your kids or yourself. But I can tell you that kids can tell when parents aren't getting along. It leads to them walking on eggshells and possibly blaming themselves for their parents' disputes. Even though a divorce might initially cause all kinds of confusion and angst for your kids, it might (only you can know for sure) be better for them to have parents who live separately and happily than parents who live together but unhappily. All I have here is the perspective from what you've shared on NOM. And frankly, it seems to me like you don't really like your wife. Is it really better to stay married for the kids? Obviously there's a lot of logistics and personal circumstances at play, so I'm not advocating one way or the other... but you don't give the appearance that there's much positivity in the marriage.

Maybe (hopefully?) what I've written above does not ring true at all. Maybe it even offends you a little. That's good news! Maybe you love your wife more than you let on, and NOM is just the place you come to vent. I recognize the importance of venting, but if what I've written above rubs you the wrong way, I suggest venting in a more positive way.

My wife and I are lucky in that we are both peacekeeper personality types, so we rarely fight, and when we do, we're usually mutually apologizing within 10-15 minutes. To some extent we're extremely lucky based on our matching personality types, but I also credit our generally harmonious marriage to one thing (unspoken between us) I've made a point of doing and that I believe my wife does too: we never talk badly about each other behind each other's backs.

This includes mental complaints too. It's possible to let a person's quirks and idiosyncrasies drive you crazy. I had a couple roommates with habits that just drove me absolutely bonkers. But when I find my wife doing similar things (for example, loading the dishwasher *gasp* the wrong way), I just shrug it off. It's not that I'm just accepting of her behavior that annoys me, it's that I have a mental idea that we are a team and that makes it a non-issue, legitimately. In my case, it's largely mindset about how I view the relationship. I don't honestly know how I got there. I certainly did not get along with ex-gfs or most family this well. But I think it's in large part that I don't complain to others about my wife.

Voicing complaints about your spouse to others and having them offer sympathy can feel nice, but it also creates an "us versus spouse" kind of situation with the person you're confiding in. Having them offer sympathy is natural, but it also reinforces that the behavior of your spouse is negative. In some situations, like abuse or unhealthy manipulation, a third-party may be necessary to help the abused see the light and get out of the relationship. But in my opinion, complaining to friends or family or internet strangers about relatively minor stuff in a normal, non-toxic relationship only builds resentment.

Sometimes I do need to vent, or to seek advice on a marital issue from a third party. When I do, it's all about framing. I try to present things positively, not make my wife the bad guy in the story, and focus on what I can change, rather than how to get her to change.

This is a lot of relationship advice from someone who is totally unqualified to give it, but let's go back to how I started: from what you share on NOM, I honestly wonder why you aren't divorced yet. What is your marriage offering you or your wife or your kids? If your marriage is actually pretty good and NOM is just the place you come to vent, consider the implications there. More and more people are going to start wondering why you aren't divorcing this lady, and voicing that, and it's going to get in your head, and then you're going to get divorced.

If things at home are honestly as shaky and unpleasant as you make them seem from your posts, I mean, that's pretty much where I'm at: Talk to a lawyer. Get a divorce. You'll be better off. Your posts make it sound like your wife is trying to leverage the marriage to manipulate you into doing exactly what she wants. Why let her? You have just as much right to that leverage as she does.

...But I'm experienced enough in life to know that there are two sides to every story, and that there's a good chance that you have lots of good times with your wife that you don't really share here, then you have an issue and come here to vent, so we only get the negatives and not the positives. But then again, you do post positive stories... of when your wife leaves town.

I dunno, man. I'm a hopeless romantic that views divorces as rather sad, so it's not really my nature to be like, "Hey, get a divorce." But what you've shared here on NOM makes me wonder what your marriage offers to you or your family. If the answer to that is "lots," I'd consider making a point of posting twice as many positive stories as negative. What you choose to share may change your mindset altogether. But if all you have in you to share is negative stories and problems... I think that says a lot, man.

Good luck. I am by no means an expert at life, so consider my advice worth what you paid for it.

Enoch, I wish you would stop beating around the bush and give it to me straight. There is a lot to respond to here. I respond because it helps me figure out my situation. If it were possible to have this back and forth without including people outside of my marriage I would do so, I think.

There are basically 3 trains of thought that battle it out when I think about divorce. Due to the severity of divorcing I think the negatives need to greatly outweigh the positives before taking that step. I say this like it is a formula, but it is all feels.
1 - It is better for the kids for us to remain together
2 - We have had some good times and there are good times possible in the future
3 - We aren't very compatible and aren't very happy together
4 - Divorce is a huge decision and it is much easier to avoid making that decision

1. So far, I think it is still better for the kids if we stay together. My wife and I avoid conflict, so there isn't much fighting. We both want similar things for the kids in most aspects so we aren't pulling the kids in different directions. There is the occasional heated discussion that the kids overhear, and there are days where mommy and daddy are avoiding each other, but they are uncommon enough that I still think/feel us together is a net positive for the kiddos. And I suspect a divorced version of mommy would not be happier.

2. We have happy memories. We've had our little comments that are special to us. They are a bit overwhelmed by the sadness that seems to cover everything though. I am driven by a hope that one day we can get out of the sadness and be mostly happy together. I have tried and continue to try to change the things I bring to the marriage that cause problems, hopeful that it can help reduce the sadness. I try to prod DW to consider what she could do as well.

3. This is basically the opposite of 2. She has been hurt by me and closed herself to me shortly after our marriage. I have made her feel like she is not smart or capable or desirable since we were married. Like I said, I am trying to change, but her wounds are deep and change is slow and I am not totally sure what I need to change. (I try to be honest with myself and others. My honesty was not well received by DW. What can I say, I was young, inexperienced and stupid. I figured our relationship would grow by acknowledging issues so we could work through them. She doesn't say anything unless it is set in stone, so she took my comments as set in stone, and wouldn't have an exploratory discussion about it because her feelings weren't set in stone or she wouldn't acknowledge them.)

4. Both of us are pretty indecisive, and divorce is a huge decision. There has to be a lot of pain before either of us will pull a trigger of that magnitude.

The factors that have been most consistent are #1 and #4. But the other factors are legitimate.

I was taken aback by your comments. Not the typical response on here. But I appreciate your point of view.

"Stop whining about your wife" is that about it? I'm trying to figure my way through this. My wife had never told me to she wanted me gone before, so that changed the situation. I needed somewhere to express my feelings, so I came here. I'm sorry if that is annoying to you. I make efforts in my posts to recognize the difficulty of DW's situation as well as my own. I try to consider that she has at least as raw a deal in all this as I do. (there, that is how I felt)

My wife is not purposely trying to leverage things, I don't think she realizes what position I am in. She is in hell, with no hope of getting out. All her options lead to hell in this life. So she is doing the best she can. Unfortunately, that often means that if I don't follow the rules then she gets very emotional and says unintentionally manipulative things.

Maybe we will end up divorced. But for now, for the kids, for the hope of a happy future together, and because I am not prepared to make such a drastic decision, I won't file those papers.

[Linked]

Kidding aside, there's a lot of honest introspective work that we have to do after a faith transition. Continued living with a TBM spouse is one of the hardest ones too. It takes a lot of courage to make life changing decisions. Give yourself a timeline, make a plan to improve your marriage situation, and make adjustments accordingly. If you're not progressing than maybe it is time to divorce.

This is something I have been thinking about. I read an article on ksl about mixed faith marriages that recommends the first thing to do is commit to each other. Neither of us have done that. We both are very aware that divorce is an option. Maybe it would be wise to take it off the table for a limited time and just put in work to make things better without worrying about whether or not it will be a waste because we are going to end up divorced anyway.

[Zack Tacorin Dos]

Great thread. This is the kind of introspection and compassionate but honest support regarding living a NOM or exMo life that I just don't think you can consistently get anywhere else (online at least). Thanks to all of you for sharing, especially Linked as the OP, Dmower as an outside reality check, and Enoch Witty as another potential reality check.

Linked - I have nothing to add as far as advice is concerned. I'm feeling for you and your DW brother. Sounds like you and I have so many similar things going on that we ought to go out for a drink to talk about it--only, I don't drink

Dmower - Just wow. I admire that as a believer you would come here and share like you did. You took on what I think is a daunting situation and handled it with pure class. Thank you for your perspective on this. From what I can tell, you're spot on with your observations of what the believing spouse in such a situation is likely to be going through. What stood out to me was your observation about the believer feeling like they have nowhere to turn for support. I think my wife has been in that spot for years now. It seems excruciating. I think it's good for us NOMs/exMos to read things like what you wrote. We probably don't seek that out enough.

Enoch Witty - Damn bro! And I mean that in only positive ways. You were to the point, honest, possibly revealing of some pitfalls many of us risk on our journey through and/or out of Mormonism. You sir are a true friend--willing to honestly put it out there how things seem to you even if it might not be the most pleasant thing to consider. I wish you had been my confidant back in the first couple years of my journey out of and away from Mormonism when I made so many mistakes.

To all, thank you for sharing,
Zack

[Red Ryder]

This is something I have been thinking about. I read an article on ksl about mixed faith marriages that recommends the first thing to do is commit to each other. Neither of us have done that. We both are very aware that divorce is an option. Maybe it would be wise to take it off the table for a limited time and just put in work to make things better without worrying about whether or not it will be a waste because we are going to end up divorced anyway.

That's a great place to start.

In our second session, our therapist had us identify our deal breakers and fortunately church disbelief wasn't one of them. Whenever issues got heated, in subsequent sessions she would remind us they weren't deal breakers and asked us to develop strategies to communicate our concerns, turn towards each other while developing empathy, and to reduce recovery time from disagreement.

[redjay]

sorry to hear of your difficulty Linked. I don't post much lately - a combination of work life, and trying to spend less time doing mormon stuff of any kind. But, I want you to know that I feel for you - I totally get your wife's position, as I think my wife's response would have been similar, and so would have been mine of the show was on the other foot. I have no better advice than what has already been offered. Good luck.

[tryingtogetitright]

Didn't read anything but the first post. But no, this isn't about your different believe. This is about your inserting your disapproval about a prayer your young son did, in a way that wife also felt your disgust with her faith. She is saying why don't you just leave her alone rather than be a horse's ass all the time because you are angry/disaffected?

And even if she did ask you to leave, don't do it. If she wants out of the marriage she should be the one to leave the home. Or sometimes the couple continue living together until a divorce is final.

What I'd suggest you do is tell her that you can see how she could be upset by your interrupting your child's prayer because you were upset. And that you will try to not impose your belief on the children in underhanded ways like that again. Tell her that on alternate days, you want to have a meal saying the prayer anyway you want to say it, or simply having 30 seconds of silence.

And then get Kristy Money's Mixed Faith Workbook and give her a copy and ask if your can start going through it together because you want the two of you to consider how you can preserve your marriage with different belief.

It isn't over the first (or tenth or 20th time) someone says words that sound like that.

[Raylan Givens]

Perhaps a conversation starter could be: "what would make you (DW) happy?" If you can find some meshing goals, go after them.

Perhaps she might surprise you with what she says.

I dropped the talk with my wife while we were fostering/adopting two kids, she just about called the case worker to have the kids removed (how could he raise kids in a mixed faith marriage?)

Good luck.
just a note, from a legal stand point. When you leave the house, custody is much more complicated for you (or so it seems for my buddies that moved out).

[Enoch Witty]

"Stop whining about your wife" is that about it? I'm trying to figure my way through this. My wife had never told me to she wanted me gone before, so that changed the situation. I needed somewhere to express my feelings, so I came here. I'm sorry if that is annoying to you. I make efforts in my posts to recognize the difficulty of DW's situation as well as my own. I try to consider that she has at least as raw a deal in all this as I do. (there, that is how I felt)

By no means are you annoying me! We all have different ways of coping, and I respect those who have different ways than me. As a lifelong lurker in most forums (my post count here may be my highest ever on any platform), I would be awfully bored and bereft of reading content if there weren't people who shared! Every once in a while I feel driven to speak out to share my coping mechanisms, usually because I see a kindred spirit struggling. But that hardly means I think I have all the answers!

Now, let me give you all the answers : Get your wife a massage. You can do it yourself. You can book with a professional. Ideally, do both. Go all out.

It won't solve all your problems. It probably won't even solve any. But after I posted yesterday I went to get a massage myself, and I just kept thinking, "Man, Linked's wife might feel better is she got a massage."

It was obviously The Spirit™ and not a result of writing a really long post (twice) and then immediately heading off to a place where all I could really do is think and not consume content.

Do it, Linked. Do it now!

[Red Ryder]

Ask Korihor for a massage table recommendation!

[Linked]

sorry to hear of your difficulty Linked. I don't post much lately - a combination of work life, and trying to spend less time doing mormon stuff of any kind. But, I want you to know that I feel for you - I totally get your wife's position, as I think my wife's response would have been similar, and so would have been mine of the show was on the other foot. I have no better advice than what has already been offered. Good luck.

Thanks redjay, I appreciate your post.

Didn't read anything but the first post. But no, this isn't about your different believe. This is about your inserting your disapproval about a prayer your young son did, in a way that wife also felt your disgust with her faith. She is saying why don't you just leave her alone rather than be a horse's ass all the time because you are angry/disaffected?

And even if she did ask you to leave, don't do it. If she wants out of the marriage she should be the one to leave the home. Or sometimes the couple continue living together until a divorce is final.

What I'd suggest you do is tell her that you can see how she could be upset by your interrupting your child's prayer because you were upset. And that you will try to not impose your belief on the children in underhanded ways like that again. Tell her that on alternate days, you want to have a meal saying the prayer anyway you want to say it, or simply having 30 seconds of silence.

And then get Kristy Money's Mixed Faith Workbook and give her a copy and ask if your can start going through it together because you want the two of you to consider how you can preserve your marriage with different belief.

It isn't over the first (or tenth or 20th time) someone says words that sound like that.

I lightly shook my head to myself in the middle of the prayer, it was a (private) outward expression of an inward commitment. My kids didn't see it, and I was not imposing anything on anyone, my wife just happened to be looking at me in the middle of the prayer. Yes, she was hit by how antagonistic our beliefs are and got emotional about it. If we are going to be telling each other how much we want the other person out of our lives 20 times then I think that may be a sign that we should split. (That may be different if we had different personalities, but neither of us likes to get in heated arguments so if it got to that point there would be little joy in our home)

Thanks for the Dr. Kristy Money suggestion, I had forgotten that existed. I sent it to my wife and told her I would like to go through it with her.

I'll keep in mind the "don't leave the marital home" advice, I've seen it elsewhere too.

Perhaps a conversation starter could be: "what would make you (DW) happy?" If you can find some meshing goals, go after them.

Perhaps she might surprise you with what she says.

I dropped the talk with my wife while we were fostering/adopting two kids, she just about called the case worker to have the kids removed (how could he raise kids in a mixed faith marriage?)

Good luck.
just a note, from a legal stand point. When you leave the house, custody is much more complicated for you (or so it seems for my buddies that moved out).

I try to get her to define her happiness, but she won't have any of it. She doesn't like that kind of exercise. I am hopeful that the Dr. Kristy Money stuff may help unlock something.

"Stop whining about your wife" is that about it? I'm trying to figure my way through this. My wife had never told me to she wanted me gone before, so that changed the situation. I needed somewhere to express my feelings, so I came here. I'm sorry if that is annoying to you. I make efforts in my posts to recognize the difficulty of DW's situation as well as my own. I try to consider that she has at least as raw a deal in all this as I do. (there, that is how I felt)

By no means are you annoying me! We all have different ways of coping, and I respect those who have different ways than me. As a lifelong lurker in most forums (my post count here may be my highest ever on any platform), I would be awfully bored and bereft of reading content if there weren't people who shared! Every once in a while I feel driven to speak out to share my coping mechanisms, usually because I see a kindred spirit struggling. But that hardly means I think I have all the answers!

Now, let me give you all the answers : Get your wife a massage. You can do it yourself. You can book with a professional. Ideally, do both. Go all out.

It won't solve all your problems. It probably won't even solve any. But after I posted yesterday I went to get a massage myself, and I just kept thinking, "Man, Linked's wife might feel better is she got a massage."

It was obviously The Spirit™ and not a result of writing a really long post (twice) and then immediately heading off to a place where all I could really do is think and not consume content.

Do it, Linked. Do it now!

I've tried a lot of the suggestions I see, but my DW seems immune to them. Massages are one of them. I've bought her massages before and she doesn't like to be touched, especially by strangers. She tolerates massages from me, but they don't seem to brighten her mood.

My DW is shy and is uncomfortable giving or receiving attention, so it's difficult to give her stuff to help her feel better. So I am left with trying to take a load off of her to make her feel better which just doesn't have the same effect. I gave her her favorite flower a couple days ago, I think she liked that...

Ask Korihor for a massage table recommendation!

Where did Korihor get his massage table expertise?

[Korihor]

Ask Korihor for a massage table recommendation!

Where did Korihor get his massage table expertise?

RR's Mom

[Red Ryder]

Ask Korihor for a massage table recommendation!

Where did Korihor get his massage table expertise?

RR's Mom

Which one? My daddy was a polygamist!

[Linked]

We had a family dinner last night and one of my nephews said the prayer. He prayed for the missionaries to find people to teach. I made sure I didn't move my head in any way, and avoided looking at DW. It was difficult not to smile to myself about it though.

This bullet appears to be dodged. Things have returned to a modestly positive outlook in the Linked home. Thank you all for your thoughts and advice.

[MalcolmVillager]

This sucks.

It can get better. Unlike the church, which promises happy endings to all, I cannot say it will "all work out".

That said, it can work out. Together or apart you can both be happy. It will be work and compromise either way (because you have kids).

Just show her as much love and patience as you can, but be firm.

Good luck!

[Raylan Givens]

We had a family dinner last night and one of my nephews said the prayer. He prayed for the missionaries to find people to teach. I made sure I didn't move my head in any way, and avoided looking at DW. It was difficult not to smile to myself about it though.

This bullet appears to be dodged. Things have returned to a modestly positive outlook in the Linked home. Thank you all for your thoughts and advice.

Glad to hear it is settling down. She may just be expressing frustration that you "changed the game plan."

The divorce/go away talk is probably anger.

DW and I have both told each other that if the D word is brought up, you better f****** mean it. Because the swords will come out to take our our perspective part.

[crossmyheart]

Linked wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:00 pm
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:00 am
Ask Korihor for a massage table recommendation!
Where did Korihor get his massage table expertise?
RR's Mom

Here I am quietly lurking and then I spit my breakfast out.
Totally caught me off guard.