Fight for my Kids

[Linked]

The PRRI: America’s Changing Religious Identity thread in the Doctrinal Discussion forum discusses the changing religious demographic in the US. There was a quote from Oliver that got me thinking, emphasis added.

It looks like there are two things holding the church around 2% of the population:

1) Mormons are having more children than average, and are more likely to be married. The entire program of the church is built around this model where people are married young, and the entire force of institutional power is spent on retaining those kids, creating generational legacies.
...

Is it just me or does it feel like we are in a life or death struggle for the minds of our own children? And the church is like the empire in Star Wars, with all the power, organization, and willingness to do whatever it takes to maintain it? How can I fight the church's indoctrination machine when my wife invites it and forces it into our children's lives? When a large portion of their social lives revolves around church?

The solution would be so much simpler if my wife shared my views (or if I shared hers I suppose). Grrr.

[oliver_denom]

Is it just me or does it feel like we are in a life or death struggle for the minds of our own children? And the church is like the empire in Star Wars, with all the power, organization, and willingness to do whatever it takes to maintain it? How can I fight the church's indoctrination machine when my wife invites it and forces it into our children's lives? When a large portion of their social lives revolves around church?

The solution would be so much simpler if my wife shared my views (or if I shared hers I suppose). Grrr.

All you have to do is provide a child a safe place to think and question. Unlike the indoctrination process, you don't have to tell them what to think and what to question, just allow them to do so.

[Linked]

All you have to do is provide a child a safe place to think and question. Unlike the indoctrination process, you don't have to tell them what to think and what to question, just allow them to do so.

Hopefully it works. The imagery from your post about the full weight of the church being pushed toward indoctrination of my children really got my emotions flowing. I wish I could get the institutional church's grubby hands out of mine and my kids lives, but my family and friends are all card carrying members.

[Korihor]

My only thought of solace are: Patience.

There are many ills yet to fix in this world. It's easy to fantasize life without the church, unfortunately, this just isn't our reality yet. It is frustrating.

We don't live in a world free of excessive use fossil fuels. We're working on it, but we've inherited the problems created since the industrial revolution. We don't live in a world free a war and war related horrors. We're working on it, but there are still problems.
We don't live in a world free of racism. We're working on it, but still too much hate.
We don't live in a world with interplanetary travel. We're working on it.
We don't live in a world in which we know what cool stuff will be "normal" in 1000 years.

It's easy to get caught up in 'woe is me' mentality with the anchor of the church dragging us down. Yes, the world would be better without the church (generally speaking) and we can be upset our families are still so engaged.

Try to find the good. If you weren't stuck with this problem, it would be another. We still have a long way to go to advance society and it won't reach homeostasis in our life times. Sometimes, we gotta do the best with what we have.

I don't like giving this advice. I think I write it more for myself than anyone else. It helps me keep perspective and not wish for something outside of my control.

[oliver_denom]

All you have to do is provide a child a safe place to think and question. Unlike the indoctrination process, you don't have to tell them what to think and what to question, just allow them to do so.

Hopefully it works. The imagery from your post about the full weight of the church being pushed toward indoctrination of my children really got my emotions flowing. I wish I could get the institutional church's grubby hands out of mine and my kids lives, but my family and friends are all card carrying members.

I stand by that statement about the full weight of the church, because they haven't been coy about their motives and purpose. However, what they are attempting is failing a vast majority of the time, just from their own accounting. In order to maintain their indoctrination, they have to control things a church, home, and school (seminary & church schools). Remove any one of those pieces, and the whole program struggles.

If one parent creates a space for free thought, even planting the idea that choice exists, then most find their way out. If they go to a secular school, or skip seminary, then all the better. All it takes is one. The illusion is maintained more by what is hidden and shut out than what is actually said. The very existence of reality as it is contradicts much of what they teach.

[Linked]

All you have to do is provide a child a safe place to think and question. Unlike the indoctrination process, you don't have to tell them what to think and what to question, just allow them to do so.

Hopefully it works. The imagery from your post about the full weight of the church being pushed toward indoctrination of my children really got my emotions flowing. I wish I could get the institutional church's grubby hands out of mine and my kids lives, but my family and friends are all card carrying members.

I stand by that statement about the full weight of the church, because they haven't been coy about their motives and purpose. However, what they are attempting is failing a vast majority of the time, just from their own accounting. In order to maintain their indoctrination, they have to control things a church, home, and school (seminary & church schools). Remove any one of those pieces, and the whole program struggles.

If one parent creates a space for free thought, even planting the idea that choice exists, then most find their way out. If they go to a secular school, or skip seminary, then all the better. All it takes is one. The illusion is maintained more by what is hidden and shut out than what is actually said. The very existence of reality as it is contradicts much of what they teach.

That is a heartening thought, even with all the church's efforts they are leaking members, especially the youth, like a colander. My wife is pretty committed to keeping control over all three, and feels if any of them don't happen she has failed. I suppose I can make sure they know that they can have critical thoughts about anything with me.

Thanks for the responses!

[Emower]

The solution would be so much simpler if my wife shared my views (or if I shared hers I suppose). Grrr.

I wrote up a response about how politics is much the same and we struggle through life trying to keep ourselves and others from being to ideologically swayed by different opinions. My point was that while the church does it to an extent, life does it all the freaking time and you cant get away from it. If its not one thing its another.
I backspaced the whole thing though because I realized that what life does will not even compare to what the church does. So, carry on.

[Fifi de la Vergne]

If one parent creates a space for free thought, even planting the idea that choice exists, then most find their way out. If they go to a secular school, or skip seminary, then all the better. All it takes is one. The illusion is maintained more by what is hidden and shut out than what is actually said. The very existence of reality as it is contradicts much of what they teach.

I would like to add that creating that space for free, critical thought, allowing children to wonder and question and disagree (even if it's with you as the ex-mo or NOM parent), goes a long way towards mitigating the worst of the stifling indoctrination that the church is attempting. I feel like one of the worst things the church did was to make me complicit in my own repression. Nobody ever needed to censor me because I was so terrified of offending god by thinking or saying the wrong things.

If you teach your children not only that God gave them their wonderful inquiring minds but that he or she intends them to use it, well, you've opened the world to them.

My eldest son is on a mission, a passionate and committed elder. But I mostly feel ok about this, because rather than stats and fanaticism, his letters home are about things like the joy of lifting someone by just sitting and listening to them. He was excited this week because they visited someone with a severe disability and were able to help him do some work around his home that he was unable to do himself. Once he wrote apologetically that the McDonald's gift card I'd sent had been given to someone they talked to digging through a dumpster. His uncle, who's in the same ward, reports to us that he's "progressive." I'm not sure he meant it as a compliment, but I was greatly heartened to hear it.

While I have made no efforts to dissuade him from his beliefs, I have made myself available to him to talk, and by that I mostly mean I listen. I have made it as safe as I can for him to express himself freely, even when it makes me uncomfortable.

One of our venerable NOMS said that you don't even have to campaign against the church, you just give them the tools for critical thinking. I heartily agree. I think most of the time you're most effective without even bringing it up.

[Corsair]

Frame the fight for your children differently. As others have pointed out, you have a real chance to get towards your way of thinking.

Realize that your wife has a much harder job ahead of her. She has to hold up all the excessive standards of the LDS church and ultimately provide a justification for them. You simply have to teach them to be kind to others, work hard for their goals, and find their way forward. Certainly your wife wants that, but she wants tithing, temples, missions, and three hours of church on top of all that. You don't have to defend any of the silly decisions of the LDS church. Consider the answers that would have to be provided to a teenager simply and honestly asking:

Why can't gay people get married? I don't think they are hurting anyone.

The LDS response would be something about God's plan and following the prophet which ultimately are both a non sequitur. The LDS church does not have a good answer to what actual harm LGBT people might be causing from two people simply wanting to live a life together.

Your response to that question can honestly be, "I don't know why the church opposes same sex marriage. Sure, they can have any rules they want inside their own church, but they don't want any other church to perform same sex marriages either." This is honest and leaves the burden of proof exactly on the LDS church and (unfortunately) on your poor wife.

So many LDS questions can be dealt with like that. Your children will come to figure out who they can talk to about religious issues. You can even be happy and supportive for any of your children that might happily stay in the LDS church. It will be a painful that your wife (and mine) will have to process their own disappointment with the children that do not.