Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
So I'm reading Quinn's Magic World View, and apparently he initially toned down some of his conclusions in order to preserve his job at BYU:
At the publication of Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, I was full professor and director of the graduate history program at BYU. I resigned within several months because of administrative pressures against my continuing to work on controversial topics. In 1993 LDS officials formally charged me with “apostasy” (heresy) for my historical writings, and I was excommunicated from the LDS church....
In fact, my employment at BYU in 1987 was the reason that the first edition qualified many of my statements of evidence and conclusion....the editors were deeply concerned that BYU would terminate my employment if the book did not make my statements very tentative. At the strenuous urging of my editors, I reluctantly accepted their multiple addition of subjunctives, qualifiers, and qualified-qualifiers, even though my analysis and views were not so tentative. Prudence did not preserve my employment, nor did carefully qualified historical scholarship save me from being labeled as an “apostate” (heretic).
Quinn, D. Michael (2016-01-27). Early Mormonism and the Magic World View (Kindle Locations 132-147). Signature Books. Kindle Edition.
In this Kindle edition he has had the opportunity to strengthen the language to conform to his actual conclusions--i.e. these folks were definitely practicing folk magic and believed they would get results.
Available as an ebook at Amazon for $9
“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”
At the publication of Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, I was full professor and director of the graduate history program at BYU. I resigned within several months because of administrative pressures against my continuing to work on controversial topics. In 1993 LDS officials formally charged me with “apostasy” (heresy) for my historical writings, and I was excommunicated from the LDS church....
This is the purpose of tenure, and at real universities it protects professors to find the truth regardless of political pressures.
Always been the good kid, but I wanted to know more, and to find and test truth.
Out of curiosity, does Quinn define any truths in his book like the stone in the hat that maybe weren't truths back then. Could he have been excommunicated for speaking false doctrine that is now true doctrine?
At the publication of Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, I was full professor and director of the graduate history program at BYU. I resigned within several months because of administrative pressures against my continuing to work on controversial topics. In 1993 LDS officials formally charged me with “apostasy” (heresy) for my historical writings, and I was excommunicated from the LDS church....
This is the purpose of tenure, and at real universities it protects professors to find the truth regardless of political pressures.
It's kind of a shame that he changed it but got excommunicated anyway.
I heard Quinn speak at a Mormon Stories conference. He said that at one time he was told that he was on track to to become a General Authority, something that he really wanted. Before he published the book he met with Spencer Kimball, who he considered a close friend, and asked him if publishing would damage his trajectory. In response, Kimball gave him a blessing that promised him that he would be an apostle if he remained faithful and admonished him to not pay attention to what other church leaders said.
And then they unceremoniously threw him out on his ass.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Hagoth wrote:I heard Quinn speak at a Mormon Stories conference. He said that at one time he was told that he was on track to to become a General Authority, something that he really wanted. Before he published the book he met with Spencer Kimball, who he considered a close friend, and asked him if publishing would damage his trajectory. In response, Kimball gave him a blessing that promised him that he would be an apostle if he remained faithful and admonished him to not pay attention to what other church leaders said.
And then they unceremoniously threw him out on his ass.
Quinn's story is really heartbreaking. He was definitely considered to be the church's most respected and knowledgeable authority on church history (and I've read that some GA's stated this even after his excommunication). Many general authorities still quote him when needed in their talks for General Conference if it serves their purposes.
Here's a write up that is really interesting to read. It gives a history of what occurred with Quinn and also gives information about his early life in the church.
Thanks for that link, Allie Oop - so many of the well-known authors had already been through their LDS journey when I joined, and I am still learning their stories.
I should know this, but is Quinn the one who is supposed to release the expose' on finances sometime soon? I think i reserved a copy on Amazon, but with all the other things I purchase there, I can't find whether it's still on preorder or not, and I cannot remember who the author is. So many new names I've learned during my shelf-crash and resignation.
Two years ago, I'd never heard of Fawn Brodie, John Dehlin, Jeremy Runnells, Richard Bushman, Infants on Thrones, Brother Jake, NOM, and so many more - wow. What a difference a few years makes!
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. Silver Girl is sailing into the future. She is no longer scared.
Silver Girl wrote:I should know this, but is Quinn the one who is supposed to release the expose' on finances sometime soon? I think i reserved a copy on Amazon, but with all the other things I purchase there, I can't find whether it's still on preorder or not, and I cannot remember who the author is.
I've got a copy coming as soon as it is released. I plan to read all three volumes in a row, and report on what I find.
“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”
This has been an interesting thread. I read Magic World View some years ago for a history class, and my personal review was quite savage. Quinn had some great examples, but I never read a history book that hemmed and hawed and used "perhaps" so much, and I remember thinking to myself, "why don't you have the courage of your convictions and just say what you mean?" Then of course, I read the rest of the story when the interwebs were invented, and it all came together. I still like Rough Stone Rolling better, but Quinn has become a master of his craft. The Origins and Hierarchies of Power books were great reads, I can't wait until the third one comes out.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."
Silver Girl wrote:I should know this, but is Quinn the one who is supposed to release the expose' on finances sometime soon? I think i reserved a copy on Amazon, but with all the other things I purchase there, I can't find whether it's still on preorder or not, and I cannot remember who the author is.
I've got a copy coming as soon as it is released. I plan to read all three volumes in a row, and report on what I find.
Amazon wrote:Early in the twentieth century, it was possible for Latter-day Saints to have lifelong associations with businesses managed by their leaders or owned and controlled by the church itself. For example, one could purchase engagement rings from Daynes Jewelry, honeymoon at the Hotel Utah, and venture off on the Union Pacific Railroad, all partially owned and run by church apostles.
Families could buy clothes at Knight Woolen Mills. The husband might work at Big Indian Copper or Bullion-Beck, Gold Chain, or Iron King mining companies. The wife could shop at Utah Cereal Food and buy sugar supplied by Amalgamated or U and I Sugar, beef from Nevada Land and Livestock, and vegetables from the Growers Market. They might take their groceries home in parcels from Utah Bag Co. They probably read the Deseret News at home under a lamp plugged into a Utah Power and Light circuit. They could take out a loan from Zion’s Co-operative and insurance from Utah Home and Fire.
The apostles had a long history of community involvement in financial enterprises to the benefit of the general membership and their own economic advantage. This volume is the result of the author’s years of research into LDS financial dominance from 1830 to 2010.
It fascinates me that in spite of knowing and having written about all the messiest aspects of LDS history, and having been excommunicated for publishing it, Quinn maintains his belief in JS and the church.
Joy is the emotional expression of the courageous Yes to one's own true being.
Silver Girl wrote:Thanks for that link, Allie Oop - so many of the well-known authors had already been through their LDS journey when I joined, and I am still learning their stories.
I should know this, but is Quinn the one who is supposed to release the expose' on finances sometime soon? I think i reserved a copy on Amazon, but with all the other things I purchase there, I can't find whether it's still on preorder or not, and I cannot remember who the author is.
Yes, that's Quinn. I've got one on pre-order too I've anxious to read it!
It states it'll be available on November 15, 2016:
I've anxious to read it!