Temple work for the dead

[el-asherah]

If that's the case, and considering the difficulties explained in the OP, there is no reason to even do genealogy. Everyone going to the temple could do proxy work for "Some Guy," with a new name of Adam (or "Some Gal" and Eve) and it would all work out the same in the end.

In practice this is what the church is already doing, temple work for "Some Guy"!!! Publicly, the church claims that temple work for the dead is only done for a member's direct ancestral line, where the member does the genealogy and the temple work. This is a blatant lie. The vast majority of the names for temple work for the dead come from the church's temple name extraction program.

Previously in this thread, I told the story about doing temple work for "Some Guy" named Juan circa 1400. Which Juan did I marry to which women? This name clearly came from the temple name extraction program. Juan could be any of the millions of the "Juans" who lived circa 1400.

Before my parents died, they were both called on Temple Name Extraction Mission. They spent 2 years pouring over old historical German records from the 1200s-1500s. My mom admitted to me that in most cases the records were incomplete, and the names could not be correlated to other records to establish exactly who this person was, when they lived, where they lived, or whom they married. But she felt she still needed to submit the names, and have the temple work done, so God could sort it out in the end.

The low lying fruit in temple name extraction has already been picked. The church has to go into more and more obscure records to extract names, and the accuracy is dropping off rapidly. It has reached a point that the church might as well have temple work done once and for all for all the millions of guys named "John", "Steve", etc..

I have pointed this out before - there is NO canonized revelation that says "God will work it out in the end". The D&C is very clear that what the brethren bind on earth God will/must honor in heaven. There are ZERO canonized revelations that say "God will unbind what the brethren have bound and sort it out in the end". This is a folk doctrine that has developed to help explain why the whole temple for the dead mess can still possibly work, but has no basis in revelation.

[Hagoth]

There are ZERO canonized revelations that say "God will unbind what the brethren have done and sort it out in the end". This is a folk doctrine that has developed to help explain why the whole temple for the dead mess can still possibly work, but has no basis in revelation.

That's true. We have replaced canonization with the idea that whatever The Brethren say is the word of God, so this doctrine has been implicitly canonized by its inclusion in the Nauvoo Polygamy essay, which Elder Snow assures us was approved by the First Presidency.

[alas]

There are ZERO canonized revelations that say "God will unbind what the brethren have done and sort it out in the end". This is a folk doctrine that has developed to help explain why the whole temple for the dead mess can still possibly work, but has no basis in revelation.

That's true. We have replaced canonization with the idea that whatever The Brethren say is the word of God, so this doctrine has been implicitly canonized by its inclusion in the Nauvoo Polygamy essay, which Elder Snow assures us was approved by the First Presidency.

This idea that God will fix all of our mistakes with temple work used to send my Grandmother into a rant about how various family member would take a wild guess as to the father of an out of wedlock child, and then seal that man to a woman he may or may not have even known. So, I have one ancestor who got sealed to about 16 "possible" fathers of her baby, when she never even married any of them. My grandmother insisted that the only man the family had any business sealing her to was the man she did marry in life, and it is just too bad that our ancestor child of the woman didn't like his step dad. It isn't his choice who his mother marries. And if the father was such a jerk as to get her pregnant and abandon her, he isn't going to make it to the CK anyhow. Then there is the woman who paid the mother's fine for having a child out of wedlock, and paid the father's fine for such a child so that she did not have to name the father. Yeah, they have her sealed to 26 different men, including her parish priest. That is my grandmother's father's line. Then there is my grandmother's mother's line. It runs into a dead end in Paris France when a 5 year old street urchin stowed away on a ship to America. He only knew his first name, and had no idea who his parents were. So, the sailors named him French for "Toad," and dropped him off in an orphanage in the US. No way is anyone going to find this ancestor's parents because he had no idea who they were when he was alive, and his last name was given to him by the sailors who found him on the ship. But, Family Seach lists his parents...yeah, I am sure that is correct. Out of a thousand people who had a child that year and named him Peter, I am positive that the sailors guessed his last name correctly. [end sarcasm] All of these sealings done with what amounts to wild guesses or pulling a name out of a hat, and it made my grandmother crazy. Because all of that work was just creating more work to have to undo it. Maybe God isn't going to sort it all out, but put us to work getting it straight. She really believed that we would have to clean up all of our messes.

[Hagoth]

So, the sailors named him French for "Toad," and dropped him off in an orphanage in the US.

I'm sure the church would be just fine with someone in your family doing the work for Father of Toad, Mother of Toad, etc.

[alas]

So, the sailors named him French for "Toad," and dropped him off in an orphanage in the US.

I'm sure the church would be just fine with someone in your family doing the work for Father of Toad, Mother of Toad, etc.

I am sure it has been done as both the French, Mr. And Mrs. Crapoud, and the Carribean derivative of the French which is actually what he ended up with of Crapo. And then the "parents" which are listed on Family Search were found in Paris and spelled Crapou.

It just kind of chaps my hide that people KNOW where he got his last name and yet somehow believe that it must have been his parents last name too. Heck, they might as well seal him to every set of parents in Paris who died and left an orphan child named Peter. He was a street urchin, his real parents were probably homeless poor, probably too poor to have a church wedding, who simply abandoned him to do his own begging and there is no recorded of his birth or their marriage or death.

People just can't stand an unknown, so they make something up and I am sure their inspiration on the subject is good and that God is pleased with their diligence in doing fake genealogy. So we can do fake sealings to fake relatives in a fake temple.

But Peter Crapo has a wife who traces her line back to Adam through the lines of royalty that were *made up* during the dark ages to make the king feel important that he had royal blood going back to Adam. So, if we record that made up line in our genealogy books, we might as well record Peter's made up parents. One fiction is really no worse than the other. It is just a few generations newer.

[no1saint]

Part of the issue with any of the Temple rites is that once JS died, it never really evolved and never left the shadows of the Mormon Underworld. The fact that it took over 100 years for the Church to publicly show the Temple Robes and Garments shows how stagnant the whole thing has become. BY tried to evolve the doctrine of the Endowment with his Adam/God Theory but never had full support of the FP or the Q12 so that was dismissed quickly after his death. So we are now left with an undeveloped concept that is not actively discussed or explored.

In regards to the tokens, signs and penalties, I have no real issue with that, except the literal presentation of them as if the transition from one level of consciousness to another involves a complicated bro shake. Remember, the Catholic and Anglican Mass includes the sign of peace...which is a handshake. Therefore, I believe the concept of handshakes being symbolic of spiritual relationships and covenants between willing parties is universal and valid.

Personally I view ritual and initiation as being an effective tool for approaching deep esoteric knowledge. The issue I have with the Temple films is by being dramatised and focusing on an increased production, they neglect the ritualistic component of it. Culturally, within Maori society, our Whare Wananga, our houses of higher learning, engage ritual and acts of worship to engage the mind and to transfer knowledge and understanding. The modern Mormon Temple, even with it's two stage progression is not effective in providing that environment. SLC and Manti Temples are the only place you can properly understand and experience the Endowment as intended. Yes the rituals were appropriated, and? The message and underlying lessons are not, they are an attempt to explore the Mormon Universe. Clumsy at times? Yes. Would I make changes? Yes. But it is what it is and it's not longer part of my spiritual journey. Therefore my engagement with NOM is to better understand my family who are still TBM and to safely navigate my relationships with them.

I can understand how proxy work for the dead may seem pointless. What if the temple patron who is focusing on their deceased family member and the endowment rituals and leaves their normal world behind achieves a point of clarity and can look at things objectively in their life? When I hear people say that they received an answer on an important issue in their life, I don't dismiss it. I believe the temple is designed to physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually seperate the initiate/patron from the mundane aspects of life and allow them to focus on the sacred.

Now that I am emotionally divorced from the Church I can look at the Church and Temple worship not as a the one and only truth or a complete fraud, but one of countless variations of a much grander truth. Mormonism like all religions borrows heavily from pre-existing spiritual thoughts and traditions. I personally feel that Mormonism with it's patchwork quilt of beliefs, dogma and policies is a truth for those who need it presented that way. In the same way that Catholicism, and Anglicanism and the various shades of Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and every other form of faith and spirituality is a variation of truth for those who need it in their lives in that manner. All of them enabling their adherents to touch the grand universal consciousness/godliness in varying and different ways that they can comprehend. My issue is the way those truths have been twisted, corrupted and manipulated for power. Abusing the sacred to obtain and maintaining power.

Sorry for the long winded response.

[Emower]

Its also interesting to listen to George Mason's podcasts on mormon expressions about the masonry connection. He makes it pretty clear that Joseph intended for the temple to be understood in the context of masonry. Now we have lost a critical component of how it was to be interpreted, and we are left the weird cousin of the ritual world, who thinks that his weirdness is God-mandated and completely normal.

[no1saint]

Its also interesting to listen to George Mason's podcasts on mormon expressions about the masonry connection. He makes it pretty clear that Joseph intended for the temple to be understood in the context of masonry. Now we have lost a critical component of how it was to be interpreted, and we are left the weird cousin of the ritual world, who thinks that his weirdness is God-mandated and completely normal.

I would have to agree, and if you extrapolate that theory it could be argued that it was meant to be a degree of masonry that fitted into the overall freemasonry family/universe. Fun fact....compare the English Coronation rites to the Endowment, the shared roots is very obvious.

[Emower]

Its also interesting to listen to George Mason's podcasts on mormon expressions about the masonry connection. He makes it pretty clear that Joseph intended for the temple to be understood in the context of masonry. Now we have lost a critical component of how it was to be interpreted, and we are left the weird cousin of the ritual world, who thinks that his weirdness is God-mandated and completely normal.

I would have to agree, and if you extrapolate that theory it could be argued that it was meant to be a degree of masonry that fitted into the overall freemasonry family/universe. Fun fact....compare the English Coronation rites to the Endowment, the shared roots is very obvious.

I'm aware of the oil anointing, early laying on of hands, and some of the prayers the archbishop says during the course of the crowning. I feel dumb in saying I dont see much more than that?

[no1saint]

Its also interesting to listen to George Mason's podcasts on mormon expressions about the masonry connection. He makes it pretty clear that Joseph intended for the temple to be understood in the context of masonry. Now we have lost a critical component of how it was to be interpreted, and we are left the weird cousin of the ritual world, who thinks that his weirdness is God-mandated and completely normal.

I would have to agree, and if you extrapolate that theory it could be argued that it was meant to be a degree of masonry that fitted into the overall freemasonry family/universe. Fun fact....compare the English Coronation rites to the Endowment, the shared roots is very obvious.

I'm aware of the oil anointing, early laying on of hands, and some of the prayers the archbishop says during the course of the crowning. I feel dumb in saying I dont see much more than that?

The white plain shield/vestment of plain linen that is worn during the anointing,

Archbishop anoints the king in the form of a cross, (1) on the
head, saying, "Be thy head anointed with holy oil, as kings,
priests and prophets were anointed"; (2) on the breast, saying,
"Be anointed with holy oil"; (3) on the palms of both hands,
saying, "Be thy hands anointed with holy oil; and as Solomon was
anointed by Zadoc the priest and Nathan the prophet so be you
anointed, blessed and consecrated king over this people whom the
Lord your God hath given you to rule and govern, in the name of
the Father, Son and Holy Ghost:".

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

It is interesting to explore the COC take on sealing. They basically say that everyone is sealed together inherently in the afterlife and no reason to go through a complicated set of ordinances to achieve this. This seems to follow the early pre-nauvoo practice of Elders sealing up entire congregations unto eternal life (see Charles Harrell's book or Greg Prices book on the development of the priesthood). One "sealing" for everybody and done.

[Corsair]

It is interesting to explore the COC take on sealing. They basically say that everyone is sealed together inherently in the afterlife and no reason to go through a complicated set of ordinances to achieve this. This seems to follow the early pre-nauvoo practice of Elders sealing up entire congregations unto eternal life (see Charles Harrell's book or Greg Prices book on the development of the priesthood). One "sealing" for everybody and done.

Sealing an entire congregation? That sounds like an excellent "get out of jail free card" for spiritual prision and the Telestial Kingdom. Maybe if I seal one of my daughters in proxy to Joseph Smith or Thomas Monson I can get the VIP treatment.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

It is interesting to explore the COC take on sealing. They basically say that everyone is sealed together inherently in the afterlife and no reason to go through a complicated set of ordinances to achieve this. This seems to follow the early pre-nauvoo practice of Elders sealing up entire congregations unto eternal life (see Charles Harrell's book or Greg Prices book on the development of the priesthood). One "sealing" for everybody and done.

Sealing an entire congregation? That sounds like an excellent "get out of jail free card" for spiritual prision and the Telestial Kingdom. Maybe if I seal one of my daughters in proxy to Joseph Smith or Thomas Monson I can get the VIP treatment.

Sealing up everyone unto eternal life vs sealing/adoption into a family unit. I wonder what the practical difference was in Joseph's mind. I'm thinking that changed once he started looking at the maids.

[A New Name]

A good friend of mine wrote the following on Wheat and Tears about Temple work. Seems pertinent to the discussion.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

A good friend of mine wrote the following on Wheat and Tears about Temple work. Seems pertinent to the discussion.

My calculations don't figure in the total population of the earth, but rather the total number of recorded names throughout history. So if you consider that we can only do names that exist somewhere on paper, the problem isn't too many names, but rather the lack of names. That is why they are so frantic to get indexing and extraction done, but someday historical written names will dry up except for newly deceased people.

[sirensong]

I got an email message from some chick on Family Search asking me to release the hold that I have on the record of my great great grandmother so that she (supposedly a very very distant familial relation) could do the temple work for her. Once upon a time, I myself was planning on doing that work for her. Now, I see my hold as a way of allowing Malinda Jane the opportunity to do her own temple work in the millenium if she so chooses to do so.

Personally, I think that temple work now is a complete utter waste of time, and have been tempted to write this person back and say so. Or maybe I should write her back and say that Malinda Jane visited me in a dream and told me she's having a kick ass time in spiritual prison and that she'd like to stay there...

[Gatorbait]

I totally agree that temple work is pretty silly, though I hesitate to use that word, but I never bought into it. There are those who find a great deal of happiness though, feeling that they are doing something worthwhile and I am happy that they find happiness that way.

As someone else said, the temple is there so that the church can be funded. Pay to play. Without the tithing, the church would have withered as fruit on the vine and died.