Enough for needs or wants?

[Rob4Hope]

OK....so for a long time I have believed the church has a problem with pleasure--just for the sake of pleasure. And the other day, something just came through loud and clear--another anomaly regarding a conflicting teaching.

In the Catholic church, there is a vow of poverty which involves no real personal property, but also giving away what they have to others. I have always marveled at this type of law, how it was culturally taught to me with the stories of people giving their tithing while their children were in rags, or how they would take off their coat and give it to the little shivering boy who had none. These were the stories that were told, in a Paul Dunn type of awe struck wonder during Conference, or sacrament meeting or ward conference. But then I would look back and wonder: WOW...that is a pretty nice suit that GA is wearing over there. And WOW...look at that shopping mall. And WOW...look at "mormon leaks" and the money these guys are getting.

Then while driving, I remember hearing a phrase pop into my mind: "Have you any Money?...you can buy anything in this world with money... "..."We have sufficient for our needs.

WAIT A MOMENT! There is, from everything I was taught my whole life, a BIG BIG BIG different between a NEED and a WANT!...

Is the culture, even at the temple level, teaching the indirect message of taking, as it were, a vow of poverty?....and these GAs, like hypocrits, share these stories of sacrifice when they themselves burn billions on a shopping mall?

something stinks here.....

[Palerider]

Actually I think the church itself doesn't know which direction they're going. Back in the 60's and 70's they were all about missions, marrying early, no postponing or limiting children and you do it all while holding down some 2 bit job as you work your way through school.

Then they began to see the fruits of that philosophy which were children raised in abject poverty, low tithing donations, and increased abuse. Lots of families not making it out of poverty.

The "smart" members ignored the advice, postponed marriage and children, became very successful and if they had the right connections became GA's wearing those nice suits you mentioned. It was a reward for their success because they were obviously living the gospel correctly.

But the low tithing donations continued and in the 80's and 90's we began to see a slight shift in the emphasis on education and having only "as many children as you can support" to quote Hinkley.

It was a more common sense approach that left many of us a little bitter in our struggles while watching younger couples breeze along...

Looking at the life of Joseph Smith with a little clearer view, I think there is no doubt that he wanted big money. Just look at how Brigham his protoges faired. He lived high on the hog while most around him suffered and he made a lot of it dishonestly through confiscation. Who dared tell him no?

I regret every dime I ever gave to the church and I'm sure when they came out with that little disclaimer statement a few years ago about not returning anyone's donations, it was an effort to forestall lawsuits for fraudulent collection of money.

They know what they're doing alright. That's what those highly paid lawyers are for and the hilarious thing is they're screwing you with your own money.....

[Thoughtful]

OK....so for a long time I have believed the church has a problem with pleasure--just for the sake of pleasure. And the other day, something just came through loud and clear--another anomaly regarding a conflicting teaching.

After my shelf crashed, realizing it's on to do things for me, because they feel good, or I want to, was so freeing. I have felt guilty my whole life for any respite self care. It was all frivolity. Such a shame. My heart breaks for people who believe "pleasure" cannot be joy. I'm not even talking about sin, just things like vacations or having more shoes than I "need".

I had 2 sets of maternity garments with my first kid. With my second, I borrowed some. Borrowed underwear!! I mean, can I go back and tell my 20 year old self it's ok to buy enough underwear to get through the week, and God won't hate me for doing it?

[Rob4Hope]

OK....so for a long time I have believed the church has a problem with pleasure--just for the sake of pleasure. And the other day, something just came through loud and clear--another anomaly regarding a conflicting teaching.

After my shelf crashed, realizing it's on to do things for me, because they feel good, or I want to, was so freeing. I have felt guilty my whole life for any respite self care. It was all frivolity. Such a shame. My heart breaks for people who believe "pleasure" cannot be joy. I'm not even talking about sin, just things like vacations or having more shoes than I "need".

I had 2 sets of maternity garments with my first kid. With my second, I borrowed some. Borrowed underwear!! I mean, can I go back and tell my 20 year old self it's ok to buy enough underwear to get through the week, and God won't hate me for doing it?

Its the old shame deal...poking its head up. And, you have GAs out there who get to decide what constitutes "enough for our needs". OH!!!!....this makes me ANGRY! How DARE THEY look at my life, decide what I can and can't do (that is within the law), and condemn me for it!

I realize the only power they have is what I gave them, but I was a BIC child, raised my whole life in "happy valley" right smack dab in the middle of SLC. I know how we treated non-members, and how I was raised to look down on them. I know how jobs were given preferential treatment when I was younger to LDS people in the community. The stigma reached out here, and it wasn't just the power "i gave them"....they actually HAD SOME POWER OVER ME!

Now I drink a beer occasionally. A "mild drink" made with grain?...sounds like D&C 89 made allowance for beer. But you gotta have these big shots who like to wield their power, and in their nice houses with fine clothing, transportation that works, fantastic medical care--in this situation, they teach about paying tithing FIRST and then spend billions on shopping malls.

Frankly, I hope some of those guys burn in hell. I'm angry at them.

[Palerider]

Frankly, I hope some of those guys burn in hell. I'm angry at them.

Now.....don't go wishing they would burn.....

It would be SO much better if they could grow a spine and face up to the reality of the church as an organization loaded with false doctrine and worshipping a false prophet. At least then they could possibly muster the intestinal fortitude to do the right thing and tell the truth.

Not holding my breath mind you but it would give them a bit of stature in my estimation. And they could free a people from psychological tyranny in the process. That could actually have a redemptive quality to it.

[RubinHighlander]

I thought of that satanic temple quote earlier today about money. Then I thought of another way to say it.

"Do you have religion? You can justify doing anything in this world with religion."

Like sleeping with 14 year old girls behind your wife's back or telling people they will go to a super VIP heaven forever with their families for a small fee of 10% of their lifetime income.

PS - Don't masturbate.

[NOMinally Mormon]

This thread brings back bad memories. I "followed the prophet" by marrying an active (but controlling) church member, not delaying childbirth, a being a SAHM. As a result, we were trying to raise a family on one half the poverty level. Whenever I considered a commonsense solution like get a job, I felt intense guilt because that was against church counsel. Of course the marriage didn't last and I got to do it all as a single parent.
So yeah, like Palerider said, I'm feeling kinda bitter that now it's okay to have a career, and actually plan a family rather than leave it up to god.

[Rob4Hope]

This thread brings back bad memories. I "followed the prophet" by marrying an active (but controlling) church member, not delaying childbirth, a being a SAHM. As a result, we were trying to raise a family on one half the poverty level. Whenever I considered a commonsense solution like get a job, I felt intense guilt because that was against church counsel. Of course the marriage didn't last and I got to do it all as a single parent.
So yeah, like Palerider said, I'm feeling kinda bitter that now it's okay to have a career, and actually plan a family rather than leave it up to god.

I know you will get this, but the part that bugs the H3LL outa me is the total lack of accountability the church has for teaching this stuff in the first place, and the fallout/destruction it caused.

I have it on first hand authroity that SWK use to condone, even counsel gay men to undergo shock therapy for their "gayness". I have a personal friend who went through that, and it caused devastating damage to him. He was a bishop believe it or not, and it didn't fix it. DAMN...If he just could have prayed more!....Oh wait...he did!

Guess Boyd Packer was wrong about what God would and wouldn't "fix". Wait?....how could an apostle like Packer mistake revelation from God?...must have been this man. He JUST SHOULD HAVE PRAYED HARDER!!!!

And the wheels on the bus go round and round,......

[moksha]

The Buddha said that desire was the root of all suffering. Wanting that which we can't have makes us suffer, but wanting even more than we have now does the same thing. A young video game player gets a GTX 1080ti card only to then crave another so they can run it in SLI mode. Soon they will want the next generation card, and so on. Desire can be a never ending chase without a lasting contentment for what we already have.

There is a second dissatisfier when we see those telling us to curb our desire readily indulging their own desires without hesitation. That is why the Buddha must abide by his own admonitions.

The trouble is when a Quorum of Buddhas are inconsistent. We think to ourselves that they speak with forked tongues. Maybe we are indulging our own desire for things be perfect. Still, it would be nice to imagine a faith tradition in which we could concentrate on being good to one another without all that other stuff getting in the way.