Why there is so much shame in Mormonism

[Rob4Hope]

That's an amazing story, Rob. PLEASE try to find the reference!

If you're retelling is accurate it goes a long way toward supporting the general idea my son was proposing. Think about it, we spend so much time preaching about how our religion is the only one that will ensure an eternity with your family but most of us are bearing the burden that we are the weak link that will rob our family of those blessings? Holy shamefest, Batman!

OK...I did misquote...but I found a direct reference. This experience is mentioned in an audio recording by Dr. John Lewis Lund in "The Myth we Call Perfection".....Covenant Communications Inc, 2003. I've since seen Dr. Lund has a bit of a racket going with stolen things in Israel.

I think later in the recording, Lund pulls Bruce McConkie's "Seven Deadly Heresies" talk...which is where I got confused.

Anyway...the quote is on there with A. Theodor Tuttle. The group of bishops were asked to put their heads down on the desk, and 2 questions were asked of "about 34 of us"....

Tuttle asked: "How many of you believe that most of these 34 bishops here will make it to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom?".....all of the hands went up.

Tuttle asked: "...and I want you to be honest...how many of you think you will personally make it to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom?"..."3 hands went up".

I pulled this directly off the recording (don't quote me on the direct quotes. I got it mostly right...but I had to rewind it a bunch to capture it...pretty close though).

That is the story as told. 34 bishops up in Washington area....meeting with A. Theodor Tuttle,...and this is what happened.

Shame is alive and well. We don't measure up in our own eyes....we are inferior inside the church....

THESE WERE BISHOPS!.......

I remember a Sunday School class, where the teacher must have heard this, because he had us do it as a class. How many of you think that 90% of this class will make the CK? And how many of you think you will be part of that % that makes it? The results were about the same. Almost all members thought that most of the class was going, but almost nobody thought they were. The SS teacher worked for LDS SS as a social worker and so we talked about the perfectionism that had us all thinking we flunked out of the CK.

But weren't we taught perfectionism? There is a big disconnect between grace and works in LDS theology. I think that is why Stephen Robinson's book "Believing Christ" was a massive best seller for LDS people.

In the LDS church, you earn your way to heaven by keeping the commandments...but who does that...really? So, there is shame.

And, its the dirty little secret that no one talks about..."I'm going to hell,...but I'm gunna keep at it, because if I stop trying, then I have nothing at all..."

What a sad story! What a disastrous tread-mill of drudgery and dread!

[EternityIsNow]

Shame is toxic when it no longer has anything to do with what the person can control, and becomes about who they ARE, such as YW being shamed because they had a good figure, and no matter how they dressed, they could not quite hide the fact of their D cup. When it is about who you are, rather than how you behave, it becomes destructive rather than something that keeps behavior in line. The church's main problem with this is not that they USE shame and guilt to control the members, it is that they shame and guilt people for things beyond their control and for things that are normal. Living up to all church expectations is humanly impossible, so when people fall short, they feel guilt and shame over things and end up hating themselves for being a failure.

It isn't the control that is the problem, but the fact that the church makes people hate themselves with impossible standards, then teaches that "more church" is the way to fix the self hatred. No, less church is the only way to break out of the self hate.

Totally right, the church shames pretty much anyone who is not 'practically perfect'. If not directly shaming us, they subconsciously program us to shame ourselves. There is no end to the cycle except to break free, at least mentally. This pretty much summarizes some of my own thoughts about how most church members are being psychologically damaged by the core doctrines and the way they play out. But this has been going on for a long, long time in Christianity and some other major religions. I think the major difference with Mormonism is the socio-psychological leverage they create over people to keep them in this destructive mental cycle. I have literally spent years trying to reprogram this irrational belief cycle out of my brain.

To take this thought one step further, the church also guilts and shames people over their inability to control other people, and external situations. I remember in school feeling that somehow I had the responsibility of sharing the gospel with my fellow students, none of whom were interested (I lived outside Utah in areas with very low LDS populations). I knew this was not rational and not possible, but still the belief that I was shirking my duty gnawed away at me. And for decades after that, there were so many impossible church obligations, missionary work, motivating students (I taught seminary), home teaching, trying to straighten out years of bad record-keeping in several wards in various clerk callings, trying to get my family to take FHE seriously (which they never did fortunately), we just always failed, failed, failed. And then got forgiven each SM and tried again. What a depressing cycle of living that was. And I think this works deeply on us, in ways probably we don't even realize.

I still have to continually watch to make sure I don't try to fix problems around me that are unfixable, and accepting that 'what is' is often beyond my control, even if I did everything 'practically perfectly' and qualified for all the usual 'blessings'. This was and is still so mentally taxing...

So as a TBM we had the burden of constantly trying to become perfect and always failing, and now we have the burden of trying to recognize when we are being perfectionistic and standing down from that.

[2bizE]

I think only 144,000 people will make it to heaven....so, I probably won't make it. The shame is overwhelming.
Actually, I don't feel shame much anymore as a NOM. The one thing I still struggle with is raising my kids. I don't like the church's fraudulent teachings, but I also don't want my kids to grow up to be criminals and white trash like my cousins who have never had religion in their lives...

[Palerider]

I still have to continually watch to make sure I don't try to fix problems around me that are unfixable, and accepting that 'what is' is often beyond my control, even if I did everything 'practically perfectly' and qualified for all the usual 'blessings'.

This actually points up another doctrinal fallacy that the church foists on members. The idea that all human frailties can be overcome in this life if we just pray hard enough with enough faith. And if those frailties aren't resolved positively, it's because we didn't work, pray hard enough to access God's blessings.

The reality is that some addictions or other problems, even when they are naively aquired, stay with us and we pay for them for the rest of our lives. Leadership fails to remember that Paul prayed many times to have the "thorn in his side" removed and it was not.

Sometimes the best we can do is learn how to keep our issues at bay and I actually believe the Spirit gives us the strength to live good lives as imperfect beings. To realize our own worth to ourselves and God.

[Hagoth]

[To take this thought one step further, the church also guilts and shames people over their inability to control other people, and external situations. I remember in school feeling that somehow I had the responsibility of sharing the gospel with my fellow students, none of whom were interested (I lived outside Utah in areas with very low LDS populations).

That's a great point. My son had a priesthood leader who's son was inactive. And who did he blame? The other kids in the quorum. it was THEIR job to make sure his son was in church every week. They were supposed to come and drag him out of bed and get him to church.

[Newme]

I still have to continually watch to make sure I don't try to fix problems around me that are unfixable, and accepting that 'what is' is often beyond my control, even if I did everything 'practically perfectly' and qualified for all the usual 'blessings'.

This actually points up another doctrinal fallacy that the church foists on members. The idea that all human frailties can be overcome in this life if we just pray hard enough with enough faith. And if those frailties aren't resolved positively, it's because we didn't work, pray hard enough to access God's blessings.

The reality is that some addictions or other problems, even when they are naively aquired, stay with us and we pay for them for the rest of our lives. Leadership fails to remember that Paul prayed many times to have the "thorn in his side" removed and it was not.

Sometimes the best we can do is learn how to keep our issues at bay and I actually believe the Spirit gives us the strength to live good lives as imperfect beings. To realize our own worth to ourselves and God.

Both excellent points.
I also struggle with trying to fix the unfixable - and punitive life trap.
And it's still a challenge for me to remember that nobody's perfect - and it's not only ok - but good (- even in the temple, it's said that having made everything including flaws & opposition - God saw it was good).

Reading through this thread, I'm sorting some thoughts:
I guess there's a bit of a narrow middle way between being depressingly shameful... and narcissistically indulgent or abusive to others.
I've heard a few times by people who have achieved substantial success that fear of shame of failure drove them to succeed.
To be fair, I think a lot of religions (& even non-religious but in families) there can be some shaming. Actually, I kind of like how the lds church is not so much focused on Jesus's cross, however maybe they do compensate with the burdening approach with Jesus will be my human sacrifice and scapegoat AFTER all I can do.

That said, I do see a lot of shame being taught and even encouraged in the church - doctrineally and culturally.

1) The bar is way too unrealistically high. Nobody can reach it - nobody! So, we're already set up for failure.
2) All-or-nothing (polarized) thinking is taught - "you are either on the lord's side or you're not" - you either are perfect or you suck - so we all suck.
3) Alas mentioned, it's toxic when there's shame for what's natural or beyond one's control and "the church makes people hate themselves with impossible standards, then teaches that ' more church' is the way to fix the self hatred."
4) Standards of perfection are superficial, not very deep nor wholistic. How horrible that someone wore a tang top to church, but it's ok that someone else is emotionally abusive to their family.
5) Definition of good and bad are rigid because based on others' statements and non-intuitive because differing circumstances are ignored. I really love how Mormons tend to be so awesome in serving, but sometimes they really miss the mark - and don't realize other, more intuitive ways to love - like not gossiping, having heart-to-heart talks, etc.
6) Mormonism misses the mark, teaching that if you complete a check list of things - you're got a ticket to heaven - but if you do something that isn't on that list but is cruel, you're ok. Or let's say you're killing yourself trying to complete the check list, you rarely hear anybody telling you to take a break -instead many members suffer from subjugating and self-sacrifice life traps.
7) Word of wisdom isn't wisely applied. IE: How horrible that you drink coffee, while it's ok if someone indulges in junk food that is more unhealthy than coffee.
8) It's as if there is enormous shame/anxiety based pressure to pass a test (of life) that is several grades too high for us and yet this is it - no other chance!
9) If I had a nickle for every "should" I've heard or read in church, I'd be rich! Shoulding is a cognitive distortion.
10) Moksha (& others) suggested "shame and self-doubt help to curb autonomy in Mormons, keeping them in line."

[StarbucksMom]

Because Mormonism is a cult, and that's a classic tactic to keep followers in line.

[Spicy McHaggis]

I think this is the best thing about being NOM/agnostic. The religious based shame thing is completely ineffective on me. I'm assuming it's not very effective on any of you either. The emotional manipulation is wasted on me.

If there is a heaven you can bet your ass I'll be there. Free agency, right?

[PalmSprings]

OK...I did misquote...but I found a direct reference. This experience is mentioned in an audio recording by Dr. John Lewis Lund in "The Myth we Call Perfection".....Covenant Communications Inc, 2003. I've since seen Dr. Lund has a bit of a racket going with stolen things in Israel.

I think later in the recording, Lund pulls Bruce McConkie's "Seven Deadly Heresies" talk...which is where I got confused.

Anyway...the quote is on there with A. Theodor Tuttle. The group of bishops were asked to put their heads down on the desk, and 2 questions were asked of "about 34 of us"....

Tuttle asked: "How many of you believe that most of these 34 bishops here will make it to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom?".....all of the hands went up.

Tuttle asked: "...and I want you to be honest...how many of you think you will personally make it to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom?"..."3 hands went up".

I pulled this directly off the recording (don't quote me on the direct quotes. I got it mostly right...but I had to rewind it a bunch to capture it...pretty close though).

That is the story as told. 34 bishops up in Washington area....meeting with A. Theodor Tuttle,...and this is what happened.

Shame is alive and well. We don't measure up in our own eyes....we are inferior inside the church....

THESE WERE BISHOPS!.......

Stay with me this may be a hard post to follow:

I've spent some time thinking about this after you posted. What is interesting about this whole thing is how Bishops try to one up members before putting someone in their place. For example the common question of "Have you read your scriptures lately?" As a precursor to "Well you aren't worthy enough to receive revelation, but I am because I do x or y." When they are just as unworthy as any other Joe or Jane Member. There is no way they can try to claim superiority without playing the called of god card. I say try because if they are unworthy like the rest of us, using their logic, they are technically no longer able to receive said inspiration. Maybe they did read their scriptures, but most of them probably enjoyed some porn. Or maybe snuck into Starbucks to enjoy a mocha. Or for some of them if they listened to some pop or rock music last Sunday and watched that big game on TV, that would make someone unworthy of receiving revelation.

In my mind the whole shame and leadership thing crumbles when you get into the logic of it. You can't claim one thing and still hold the banner of being a judge in Isreal, if you aren't honest with yourself. Illusions of grandeur perhaps?

[Corsair]

[To take this thought one step further, the church also guilts and shames people over their inability to control other people, and external situations. I remember in school feeling that somehow I had the responsibility of sharing the gospel with my fellow students, none of whom were interested (I lived outside Utah in areas with very low LDS populations).

That's a great point. My son had a priesthood leader who's son was inactive. And who did he blame? The other kids in the quorum. it was THEIR job to make sure his son was in church every week. They were supposed to come and drag him out of bed and get him to church.

This drove me nuts when I was in Priesthood meeting. As a member of quorum presidency, I was told that I had priesthood authority over every single young man in our ward boundaries whether or not they were LDS. Surely I should feel both the responsibility and blessings of inviting all to come to Christ (conventiently located in my three church meeting each Sunday). As a thirteen year old, throwing around this kind of authority on my non-LDS peers sounded like a perfect oppotunity to receive a world class butt-kicking.

[Rob4Hope]

[To take this thought one step further, the church also guilts and shames people over their inability to control other people, and external situations. I remember in school feeling that somehow I had the responsibility of sharing the gospel with my fellow students, none of whom were interested (I lived outside Utah in areas with very low LDS populations).

That's a great point. My son had a priesthood leader who's son was inactive. And who did he blame? The other kids in the quorum. it was THEIR job to make sure his son was in church every week. They were supposed to come and drag him out of bed and get him to church.

This drove me nuts when I was in Priesthood meeting. As a member of quorum presidency, I was told that I had priesthood authority over every single young man in our ward boundaries whether or not they were LDS. Surely I should feel both the responsibility and blessings of inviting all to come to Christ (conventiently located in my three church meeting each Sunday). As a thirteen year old, throwing around this kind of authority on my non-LDS peers sounded like a perfect oppotunity to receive a world class butt-kicking.

The attitude of some can be summed up gracefully as follows: "I'm here to BAPTIZE you DAMNIT! NOW GET IN THE WATER, CUZ I KNOW WHATS BEST FOR YOU!!!!"

It makes me smile to see how often LDS people justify using satanic means to accomplish what they deem is celestial ends.

[RubinHighlander]

But what about my son's observations that the nature of the Mormon afterlife is a significant factor in creating a culture and mindset that is conducive to creating shame?

Totally agree with that! Very astute observations. The culture of guilt and shame is mentally detrimental. I felt this pressure for years, especially with my first failed marriage. I was a third class citizen, never to measure up or enjoy the blessings of those that appeared to be doing it the right way. Every Sunday, listening to all the talks and lessons on where I'd failed or where I should be in my life. Even after I married again in the temple, I was facing my kids leaving the church, so ultimately I felt the guilt of that. I'd never see a son or daughter go on a mission. I had a gay daughter. So many other things that just weighed down on me and contributed to my shelf breaking. So glad I escaped all of that BS!

[Gatorbait]

Can't speak for the rest of you, but one of the things I found most hard to believe in regards to religion, was that there was a god that was happy to reward you if you were good, heaven, but just as willing to send you to an awful place, hot, brimstone, the devil, all the scary stuff- hell. Well I never bought into that. Could not imagine a god that would do that and do it willingly.

The thing was, I did not believe in any god at all, let alone any religion.

Momonism changed that because the god that Mormons believed in was good enough to at least give everyone something.

[Hagoth]

Momonism changed that because the god that Mormons believed in was good enough to at least give everyone something.

Changed it was exactly what they did. The Book of Mormon God believes in a fiery hell, but the Doctrine and Covenants God decommissioned it to get Martin Harris' money. Leaders since then have dusted off the brimstone from time to time as suited their needs.