Revelation through hallucination -- drugs

[Rob4Hope]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9OCSkqec5A

Sunstone video. REALLY interesting and VERY WELL DONE,...IMHO.

I read Quinn's Magic World View book, and I was surprised there was no reference to drug usage in that, even though there are accounts of it historically. This confuses me because all exposure I've had to contemporary magic involves or incorporates drugs.

These guys in this presentation mention the lack of information provided by some of these historians (including Quinn) regarding potential drug usage. I was grateful for those frank comments.

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Using Ocam's Razer, it makes a LOT more sense to me to conclude the spiritual experiences people reported were drug induced than not. Ever since my earliest days when I heard the accounts of the Kirtland Temple, even from Truman Madsen, I got impressions of chaos and out of control behavior. I'm super sensitive to this as I've had to deal with abuse and abusive situations growing up. Out of control behavior--that degree of unpredictability and "crazy" -- is something I'm super sensitive to.

In your typical fast and testimony meeting, you get the individuals who blubber all over and loose composure; but generally you have order--you don't have people standing and singing out of nowhere, you don't have people walking in and out, crying and exclaiming "I SEE GOD!"....and so forth. You don't have people doing flips and sliding on the floor...you don't have "crazy".

The Kirtland temple thing seemed "crazy" to me. Some of the fast and testimony meetings these people had seemed "crazy" as well.

This presentation--true or not--makes a LOT of sense to me. I'm leaning toward the drug induced interpretation for early Mormon events. That makes a LOT more sense to me than not.

[Corsair]

In Feburary this year (2017) Sunstone had a smaller conference in Phoenix. One presentation was on how hallucinogenic substances could have produced the amazing experiences of the early church. The presenter was Micah Nickolaisen and he was very open on how there is no evidence that this was the case at all for early church experiences. He did present a plausible case for how it could have occurred including the names of a few people who could have been the source of psilocybin.

Again, there is no evidence that this happened. but the presenter did point out that it is curious that the divine experiences pretty much stopped after Joseph Smith died. The amazing experiences did not continue with Brigham Young who only drew his own conclusions from Joseph's existing revelations and relying on his own inspiration and judgement.

There was one amusing point from his presentation that is verifiably true. Take note of Facsimile 1 from the canonized Book of Abraham.



On the lower right hand side there is a plant next to the number "10". The "10" footnote is simply noting that this is "Abraham in Egypt". But the plant is a Blue Lotus which was used as mild mind altering drug in ancient Egypt. It's effects are more calming than stilmulating, but it has been compared to MDMA. This was certainly a basis for Egyptian mind alteration and elevation.

[Hagoth]

I think it's a fascinating theory, but it's certainly not a requirement. The Kirtland temple dedication is the ideal setting for such an experiment. Hallucinogens would explain a lot, but aren't necessary. (I haven't watched the video yet, so sorry if this is off track)

Here are some things we know:

1) Joseph really wanted other people to have experiences that validated his claims, so there was pressure for them to do so
2) The early church was already a hotbed of seeing with spiritual eyes, speaking in tongues, prophesying and having visions and similar behaviors
3) People fasted before the dedication, which is not a good idea before drinking
4) Buckets of "mixed" wine were passed around (mixed with what is the big question, but it may have merely been stronger liquor)
5) Some of the people who did not partake testified that the visions were mostly limited to those who did imbibe
6) All kinds of wacky visions were reported but we only hear about the faith promoting ones (e.g. we hear about tongues of flame but never about the flying steamboat)
7) MOST IMPORTANT: as demonstrated by Jeffrey Hollands two brothers story, mundane events can blossom into magnificent visions and miracles in just one or two retellings. Eyewitness accounts and biased testimonies about spiritual events are entirely unreliable.

[Give It Time]

I launched a thread on this on NOM 1.0, because I was tired if writing about abuse. Most of the posters panned the idea, except for a couple. I think it was Oliver who shared a Sunstone article with me. I tried to find it, but couldn't. I haven't watched the video, but one of the subjects in the article was about the Kirtland Pentecostal experiences. The other was that there is an hallucinogenic mushroom that grows in the region around Palmyra.

I believe it's possible that Joseph, seeking to have a visionary experience, ate that mushroom and had the First Vision. The pattern of that mushroom's trip is exactly the same as the pattern of The First Vision. So, if someone asks me about The First Vision, I can honestly reply that I think it's 100% possible. Of course, I treat further information on the subject in a don't ask don't tell manner.

It is true that there is zero evidence for this. But it strikes me as very plausible and it sure would explain a whole lot.

[Rob4Hope]

Everyone,...go watch the video. It was worth the time...

There are multiple "bullet holes" out there. No "smoking gun" yet that the author could find, but many of the things he shared were pretty dang convincing. The authors admitted their own "confirmation bias" regarding the material they presented, but confirmation bias does not automatically discount the truth.

And they quoted 2 first hand accounts that really make me wonder WHY more research in this area hasn't been done. Luman Walters and the whole occult thing were interwoven into the Smith family. Sure, there was no need for psychedelic drugs to induce visions and such, but are we saying that under no circumstances, under any conditions, were any substances EVER used in spiritual settings?

These people drank sacramental wine all the time. And, the visions were always associated with this. We know JS never drank wine, nor ever did anything "occultish" at all...right?...so this makes it certain he NEVER would have used natural plants and things that Luman Walters probably used and taught him about....right?

He was smack dab in the middle of this kindof stuff! Quinn's book talks about the whole life of JS being interwoven with the occult. To consider JS never dabbled with potions and such is like saying an iron monger never used a clay crucible.

All I can say is this: from what I know of early spiritual experiences, where people flipped upside down, slithered on the floor, spoke in tongues and saw visions in pandemonium....It sounds like drugs to me. Or, I suppose we could accept the early church answer: "It was the devil making manifest".

Yeh, right...

I don't know how second sight can account for people flipping around and freaking out,...and have that "spiritual manifestation" be considered from God of the Devil. I think something else was happening, and occams razor makes it a lot easier to consider drugs being involved when the way those drugs manifest is identical to what was reported.

[Rob4Hope]

I launched a thread on this on NOM 1.0, because I was tired if writing about abuse. Most of the posters panned the idea, except for a couple. I think it was Oliver who shared a Sunstone article with me. I tried to find it, but couldn't. I haven't watched the video, but one of the subjects in the article was about the Kirtland Pentecostal experiences. The other was that there is an hallucinogenic mushroom that grows in the region around Palmyra.

I believe it's possible that Joseph, seeking to have a visionary experience, ate that mushroom and had the First Vision. The pattern of that mushroom's trip is exactly the same as the pattern of The First Vision. So, if someone asks me about The First Vision, I can honestly reply that I think it's 100% possible. Of course, I treat further information on the subject in a don't ask don't tell manner.

It is true that there is zero evidence for this. But it strikes me as very plausible and it sure would explain a whole lot.

There are some evidence cases of this. More than one person though that the sacramental wine was laced with medicines. Considering the occult background of the Smith family, this would be a natural extension. Luman Walters was into this stuff, and there is evidence he tutored JS Jr.

Anyway...i would love to hear other reactions the pod-cast. No takers?

[1smartdodog]

Some would say that using drugs to commune with god is the best way to go about it. Being coherent seems to produce few results.

[Rob4Hope]

Like did ANYONE listen to the podcast?....

Oh man........argggggg.........

[Linked]

Like did ANYONE listen to the podcast?....

Oh man........argggggg.........

I have not. I have also not read my scriptures for a while.

[wtfluff]

Like did ANYONE listen to the podcast?....

Oh man........argggggg.........

What podcast?

[Rob4Hope]

Like did ANYONE listen to the podcast?....

Oh man........argggggg.........

What podcast?

This one: (and I should have said Sunstone Youtube)...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9OCSkqec5A

[alas]

I agree with you that there is a lot of evidence that Joseph was spiking the sacrament wine. And I don't need to listen to another podcast to convince me. The tradition of using drugs to create a "spiritual experience" is found in many religions. There were several people in Joseph's life that could have taught him how to send people on a drug induced trip. And the description of his first vision, the description of several mass spiritual experiences all fit with descriptions of drug induced experiences. I just see too much evidence of "drug like experiences" and see no evidence that would rule out the use of drugs.

But of course that idea is very "antiMormon" to the Modern church with its WoW and stand against even medical use of coffee, tea, or MJ. So TBMs and those who have not gotten out of the anti drug mind set, just fight the idea as not worth considering.

[Hagoth]

Ok, I listened to the presentation and found it really interesting. A lot of the evidence they present is highly circumstantial but the wine at the Kirtland temple dedication and the Isaac Morley farm conference do stand out as extremely suspicious. There's no doubt that the Kirtland wine was spiked with something, we just don't know exactly what.

I knew about the events at the Morley farm but I had never read about the extremely controlled conditions that were set up around the preparation and taking of the sacrament.

The links between Joseph Smith and Walter Lumen, and Walter Lumen and psychoactive substances also seems pretty significant.

I don't think hallucinogens are necessary to explain most of what happened but it would certainly explain a few things very well.

[Rob4Hope]

I get frustrated with the mixed proof standards applied by apologists, and can I say this particular topic provoked similar feelings?

An apologist like Brian Hales would only say that JS had sex with some of his polyandrous wives if there were children DNA matched to him, or one and more of those wives wrote in their journal "Had carnal intercourse with Joseph Smith Jr. in my sisters bed last night."....and THEN ONLY if that woman were like the General RS president or something.

The standards are THAT ridiculous to me!

But it seems there are also harsh standards being applied to this hallucinogenic drug ideal to (and I am not implicating folks here). It just makes a lot of sense to me...and yet its a topic that has received so very little time. I mean, we can spend OODLES of time speculating over JS sex experiences, but the whole vision deal?...and the possibility of drugs being involved? We can't spend more time on that one?

I don't get it. This one seems to be anathema for investigation out there...

[Rob4Hope]

Here is more:


http://www.mormonthink.com/files/restor ... shroom.pdf


The Morley Farm deal is talked about here. Its pretty interesting:

Reporters:

George A. Smith --> Unnatural distortions, extravagant and wild ideas

David Whitmer --> Wielded the sword of Laban as expertly as a light dragoon, acted like and indian in the act of scalping, slid ont he floor with the rapidity of a serpent, sailing in boats to preach to the lamanites

Parley P. Pratt --> swoons, unseemly gestures, cramps, falling into extasies

Joseph Smith (probably senior) --> insanity, bound hand and foot in chains as immovable as a stick of timer, getting on the stumps of trees and shouting, pursuing balls flying in the air and jumping off a cliff

-------------------------------------------------

This is their sacrament meeting.

Now,...lets apply a little bit of "doctrine" here...shall we? JS taught that Satan has no power over us; only as we allow. And, these are not the triffling members of the church here--these were some of the "whoes who!". So, they were in a sacrament meeting, praying to God and partook the sacrament. Then,...all of this "spiritual manifestation" happened.

Question to ANYONE OUT THERE....ever take the sacrament and freak out like this? Has ANYONE OUT THERE EVER freaked out like this, or seen someone who freaked out like this WITHOUT DRUGS?

I'm honestly curious. I've seen someone go through hollucinations as she was drying out from an attempted suicide from OD on barbs. She said she saw ants crawling all over the ceiling, and wanted to know why they were there....and she looked right in my face with a crazed look and demanded I answer her. Very interesting experience...as she was strapped to her table as she slowly dried out.

BUT, I want to know what the likelyhood is that such things happen at this level with NO drugs.

[Hagoth]

But it seems there are also harsh standards being applied to this hallucinogenic drug ideal to (and I am not implicating folks here).

One possibility, as you mentioned, is that modern sensibilities place hallucinogenic drugs the exact opposite extreme of religious experience, when in fact they are probably the best source of such experiences. Another is that all of the evidence is highly circumstantial. That's not to say it isn't persuasive, it's just that there is no record of someone naming a specific drug that was used in any of these situations. Your comparison to sex in polygamy is not quite the same, because some women involved actually claimed there was sex. If they had all said, as some did, things like "we lived as man and wife" it would still leave it open to debate. DNA would seal the deal, but we don't have that so there will always be some speculation.

Question to ANYONE OUT THERE....ever take the sacrament and freak out like this? Has ANYONE OUT THERE EVER freaked out like this, or seen someone who freaked out like this WITHOUT DRUGS?

Not to this degree but I have seen people in Pentecostal meetings writhing and convulsing on the floor, speaking in tongues, etc. That would never happen in a modern sacrament meeting setting even with drugs, but the early church was a very charismatic where people where expected to jump up and prophesy, speak in tunges, etc. Maybe some folks just got really carried away with it. I agree with you Rob that there probably were drugs involved, but people can do really weird things when it's a game of spiritual one-upsmanship. There's another description of early meetings where people were swinging from the rafters and running around acting like what they supposed Indians acted like (pretending to scalp each other, etc). It definitely could be explained by drugs but there's just no actual mention of drugs in those situations.

My personal experience with hallucinogens is that they do produce extremely profound spiritual experiences but they don't make you act out in bizarre ways like this. The visions in the temple sound like drugs to me. The clownish buffoonery not so much, but the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

[Rob4Hope]

Not to this degree but I have seen people in Pentecostal meetings writhing and convulsing on the floor, speaking in tongues, etc. That would never happen in a modern sacrament meeting setting even with drugs, but the early church was a very charismatic where people where expected to jump up and prophesy, speak in tunges, etc. Maybe some folks just got really carried away with it. I agree with you Rob that there probably were drugs involved, but people can do really weird things when it's a game of spiritual one-upsmanship. There's another description of early meetings where people were swinging from the rafters and running around acting like what they supposed Indians acted like (pretending to scalp each other, etc). It definitely could be explained by drugs but there's just no actual mention of drugs in those situations.

Ahhh...yes. Good reminder. I went on a mission to a place where religion was NOT espoused, by anyone. So, I've never seen a Pentacostal revival. I've seen some fo the meetings on TV where the band is going strong, and the arms are waving,...but I know from stories I've heard, and from your reminder, that what you are talking about is the real deal--people on the floor in spasms, or tongue speaking, etc.

When you saw that happen, did it seem like pandemonium?...or were things orderly, despite the weird paroxysms going on?

[Hagoth]

Some people were spasming on the ground, others were standing and praising God, some were weeping, some were waving their arms in time to the music. Everybody seemed moved in some way and nobody was sitting and looking bored like in an LDS meeting. I probably looked like this:


Afterward someone told me he had been in such a deep trance state that he fell on the floor on one side of the chapel and woke up on the other with no memory of what happened in between. In retrospect, it sounds like exactly what the revivals in the Burndover District were trying to achieve when Joseph Smith was performing as an exhorter.

[Hagoth]

BTW, last week's IOT episode is Joseph Smith: Space Cowboy, with Bryce Blankenagel talking about this topic.

[Just This Guy]

BTW, last week's IOT episode is Joseph Smith: Space Cowboy, with Bryce Blankenagel talking about this topic.

That was an interesting episode. They state that there is at best circumstantial evidence to show early Mormon drug use, but it does explain SOOOOO much.

It certainly puts a whole new light on "the field is white, already to harvest."