I will post my notes from classes for anyone that is interested. Opinions are generally those of the presenter.
They have an opening prayer in every class which is kind of strange I think.
Lesser known events in church history
Casey Griffiths from the dept church history and doctrine
BYU religion department had a curriculum change a few years ago which was the first one in 40 yrs. The last curriculum change was to get them to teach the book of Mormon. Talked about how they were asked to create a class talking about teachings about Christ in all scripture, condense the two BOM and two D&C classes and add a class about restoration history.
Led to a review of church history from beginning to end, looking for events that shaped culture, beliefs, outlook, daily operations, or are misunderstood by members. Comes from a 100 events project in conjunction with Susan Easton Black and another woman, with input from all religion professors.
First vision
Noted that the different accounts are now in Gospel library. Church history. Joseph Smith's first vision accounts.
1832 only acct in his handwriting (partially). Discovered in 60s in archives.
Shows that his understanding of the vision changed over the years.
Vague. They think that he was trying not to offend those with Trinitarian beliefs in his first account.
1835 given to Jewish minister. Mentions someone walking towards him. Mentions two beings and many angels.
1838. Intended to be the public account. Less emphasis on personal salvation.
Organisation of rs
Told by Joseph that the organisation existed in ancient times
Casey works with fringe groups and breakoffs.
They all place a limit on how long Joseph was a prophet and they cut off before nauvoo times so they do not have rs.
Intended to be appendage to the priesthood. Historians are currently looking at how rs is connected to the temple . Friend is working on Eliza biography. She believed her priestess duties were vital in the temple.
1877 priesthood reorganization
Railroads coming. Afraid they would be obliterated.
1867 rs revived
Y w retrenchment association. Mutual improvement organisation. 1869
Young men Mia 1873
Primary 1878
1877 first presidency epistle. bishopric, wards organised geographically and ward structure created.
101 wards in 1877. About 240 by end of summer.
Defined priesthood duties
Reed smoot hearings
Apostle 1900. Elected to state Senate 1903.
Bh Roberts previously kicked out for being polygamous.
Motivation for 2nd manifesto and excommunication of apostles.
Led to clarification of doctrine via james talmage.
Doctrinal exposition on the father and the son.
Joseph f Smith admits he has not had a revelation but later has revelation on redemption of the dead.
Church welfare system.
Still live consecration in a different way.
In Pioneer times it manifested as ppl helping each other across the plains
They tried to live it different ways in different times
1930s. Great depression
J Reuben Clark asked to figure out a way to look after the poor
Church security program started.
Said welfare plan is not the United order but should carry out the fundamentals of the United order.
Believes ht and vt are part of the modern law of consecration
Has been adapted via modern revelation
Priesthood correlation
Prior all organizations has their own budgets and management.
After all came under first presidency.
Combined budget.
Unified message and doctrine.
Knew people on Correlation reading committee. Older men in 60s. Have to read everything, even appliance instruction manuals for buildings.
The 12 read everything to ensure doctrinal correlation.
Interesting comment about the Book of job and whether it is Literature or history? Wrote intro for book of job in the new manual. When the manual came out he found his intro was ditched and the final intro said we don't know who wrote it.
Education week report
Re: Education week report
Thanks for the return & report LG!
Did they touch upon any of this as potential problems for testimonies or was it more of an informational one way street?
I think the church is "trying" to control the narrative and for the most part these things don't bother the average TBM who reads them. Mainly because members are too intellectually lazy and don't think through the implications of multiple accounts of the first vision or tales of polygamy.
I just find it interesting that they are talking about issues while covertly attempting to shut down thinking about the issues.
Did they touch upon any of this as potential problems for testimonies or was it more of an informational one way street?
I think the church is "trying" to control the narrative and for the most part these things don't bother the average TBM who reads them. Mainly because members are too intellectually lazy and don't think through the implications of multiple accounts of the first vision or tales of polygamy.
I just find it interesting that they are talking about issues while covertly attempting to shut down thinking about the issues.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
Re: Education week report
My impression after the first day is that the approach is to acknowledge the issue and package it with the acceptable solution/answer. I saw more of this in other classes. Will post those now. I did find the day interesting overall.
The world of women in the new testament
The world of women in the new testament
Christ's emancipation of women from their cultural background and baggage
Lynne Hilton wilson
This presenter did become emotional at times but it felt genuine.
Nt Has 153 women
45 named
Only one sixth of those in Babylonian captivity came back to Jerusalem. The majority did not return. The minority therefore make decisions. Decided to live extremely carefully and build a fence around the Torah, augmenting it with a comprehensive set of rules.
Roman population 54 million, 10pct Jewish. Very patriarchal. Women included in slave class. Avg age 35. Half babies died by 1 yr. Written records all by wealthy educated men so very few women's voices.
Jews did not want Greco Roman influences. Became very protective.
Christ sowed spiritual and social seeds that helped to value women.
Baggage
Account of Adam and eve where they are separated from each other. Eve would quake in his presence. Adam was cursed because he bowed to the will of his wife according to josephus.
Ben sira 25:4
Josephus often says he is quoting scripture that the woman is inferior but is not actually quoting scripture.
1. Segregation. Woman's and men's quarters. Women kept in seclusion. Could get divorced for spinning in the doorway if not completely veiled head to foot. Unmarried daughters could not even see close male relatives.
Philo: Women best suited to indoor life... of seclusion
Lattice barriers built in synagogues to keep women separate
Josephus said the only reason to come into the presence of a woman is to procreate
Large portion of peasants lived off the land. Men would send women to pick olives and grapes out of economic necessity.
Lots of fear and distrust in this period.
Changed with Christ.
Encouraged women to learn in the same room as men.
Brought children to him.
Account of woman with issue of blood for 12 years. Unclean, kept away. Luke 8
We can only heal marital relationships if we stop looking at one party as inferior.
2. Communication
Multiple quotes from mishnah about not talking to women
Did the angel have to come to Joseph because he and Mary really didn't speak?
Christ was constantly aware of women's needs and speaking to women.
Example of Samaritan woman in John 4. First time Christ openly identifies who he is. Not only to a Samaritan but to a woman.
3. Responsibilities
Was to bring up children and keep men from sin.
If couldn't have children in ten years, husband could leave her.
Women were the source of evil in their minds
Age for betrothal. 18 male 12 female is ideal age.
Responsible for everything in the home.
Mary and Martha story. Tells Martha not to be troubled.
4. Witnesses
Were not allowed to be witnesses in Jewish law.
Christ called on many women to be witnesses.
Need to change our responsibilities and time priorities to become witnesses.
Mary was likely 12 when betrothed. A very young woman was called as the first witness and the first disciple of Christ.
Elizabeth's account in Luke. Said she was blameless. Infertility not her fault. (They used to link all problems with sins)
Anna the prophetess in Luke 2.
Martha John 11:27 compare to Matt 16:17
Women at the cross and the tomb
Angel commands the women to go tell the disciples. Didn't believe them at first.
Suggests James and John were first cousins to Jesus.
First witness of the resurrection. Mary Magdalene.
Christ's emancipation of women from their cultural background and baggage
Lynne Hilton wilson
This presenter did become emotional at times but it felt genuine.
Nt Has 153 women
45 named
Only one sixth of those in Babylonian captivity came back to Jerusalem. The majority did not return. The minority therefore make decisions. Decided to live extremely carefully and build a fence around the Torah, augmenting it with a comprehensive set of rules.
Roman population 54 million, 10pct Jewish. Very patriarchal. Women included in slave class. Avg age 35. Half babies died by 1 yr. Written records all by wealthy educated men so very few women's voices.
Jews did not want Greco Roman influences. Became very protective.
Christ sowed spiritual and social seeds that helped to value women.
Baggage
Account of Adam and eve where they are separated from each other. Eve would quake in his presence. Adam was cursed because he bowed to the will of his wife according to josephus.
Ben sira 25:4
Josephus often says he is quoting scripture that the woman is inferior but is not actually quoting scripture.
1. Segregation. Woman's and men's quarters. Women kept in seclusion. Could get divorced for spinning in the doorway if not completely veiled head to foot. Unmarried daughters could not even see close male relatives.
Philo: Women best suited to indoor life... of seclusion
Lattice barriers built in synagogues to keep women separate
Josephus said the only reason to come into the presence of a woman is to procreate
Large portion of peasants lived off the land. Men would send women to pick olives and grapes out of economic necessity.
Lots of fear and distrust in this period.
Changed with Christ.
Encouraged women to learn in the same room as men.
Brought children to him.
Account of woman with issue of blood for 12 years. Unclean, kept away. Luke 8
We can only heal marital relationships if we stop looking at one party as inferior.
2. Communication
Multiple quotes from mishnah about not talking to women
Did the angel have to come to Joseph because he and Mary really didn't speak?
Christ was constantly aware of women's needs and speaking to women.
Example of Samaritan woman in John 4. First time Christ openly identifies who he is. Not only to a Samaritan but to a woman.
3. Responsibilities
Was to bring up children and keep men from sin.
If couldn't have children in ten years, husband could leave her.
Women were the source of evil in their minds
Age for betrothal. 18 male 12 female is ideal age.
Responsible for everything in the home.
Mary and Martha story. Tells Martha not to be troubled.
4. Witnesses
Were not allowed to be witnesses in Jewish law.
Christ called on many women to be witnesses.
Need to change our responsibilities and time priorities to become witnesses.
Mary was likely 12 when betrothed. A very young woman was called as the first witness and the first disciple of Christ.
Elizabeth's account in Luke. Said she was blameless. Infertility not her fault. (They used to link all problems with sins)
Anna the prophetess in Luke 2.
Martha John 11:27 compare to Matt 16:17
Women at the cross and the tomb
Angel commands the women to go tell the disciples. Didn't believe them at first.
Suggests James and John were first cousins to Jesus.
First witness of the resurrection. Mary Magdalene.
Last edited by LostGirl on Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Every Thursday is revelatory for us: the first presidency and the quorum of the twelve in the temple
Every Thursday is revelatory for us: the first presidency and the quorum of the twelve in the temple
Richard Neitzel Holzapfel
He became very emotional a number of times but it felt strange to me.
Millenials interpret the church and apostles through the lens of the media.
Apostle = one sent.
Need to make sure ppl do not leave Christ if they leave the church.
If we accept Christ we have to accept those who he sends.
Prophet = spokesman , declares the mind of God.
Their Job is the ministry of reconciliation, or atonement.
1835 apostolic charge. Oliver asked each person individually if they were fully committed.
Neil Maxwell mentions accepting apostolic charge as did Holland.
Tuesday meetings for the apostles
Recommended new ecclestistical boundaries
Reports on 70s and their families and their welfare
Reports on 3 main councils missionary, temple and family, priesthood
Wednesday
Briefed on issues of current importance. Lds and non lds speakers.
Receive dept reports
Also
Budget meetings
Committees for all areas like media, missionary, temple etc.
Meet with individuals, one on one ministry
Assign 800-1200 missionaries per month one by one (I am sure you know the photo that was shown here)
Ministry outside admin building.
Photo of prophet in nursing home.
Photo of silver fox feeding homeless.
Thursday
Temple meeting. 12 in semi circle in front of presidency.
Every week 3-5 will be away from slc
Shake hands.
Sing and kneel in prayer. Rotate who chooses song.
Oaks: The veil is very thin in the temples
Transact business. Approve calls. Discuss business, policy and doctrine.
Service calls made.
Must be unanimous in decisions.
In nauvoo js gradually handed over responsibility to others.
Prayer circle started in 1842, also known as quorum of the anointed.
Met at least twice a week.
A side note here, I think he sort of avoided a whole bunch of stuff that this quorum did and made it sound like they were simply a prayer circle.
Many of his sources were 1979 book from N Eldon Tanner.
Revelation on priesthood in 78 was a result of prayer circle in the temple.
At this point I looked around looking for some diversity and realised there was not much there.
First Thu of month also meet with 70 and presiding bishopric. Calls on 12-15 ppl to bear testimony. Then dress in temple clothes and partake of sacrament and have a prayer circle. Then the rest leave and the 12 and fp go on with the rest of the business in street clothes.
Then have lunch together. Period of relaxation.
Related to exodus 24:9-11 and the last supper. Also Luke 24:29-31. John 21. NIV acts 1:4.
Meals represent communion and fellowship. Made a big deal out of the meal.
Emotional at the way the media portrays them as businessmen running lds inc
Listed all of the things that they do and ways they minister. Lots of photos.
Talked about ppl who criticise the claim that we are a lay church because none of them applied for the job and serve at great sacrifice.
Talked about sacrifices by their families. One member of the 12 whose kids went to 4 different high schools due to his callings.
No retirement ever.
Mentioned their wives who participate as the occasion requires.
Said they don't live in a bubble. Ballard "we are not out of touch with your lives". 2014.
Talked about the difference between having faith in and sustaining. We have faith in divinity but sustain our leaders.
Addressed worshipping men instead of Christ.
Practice of standing when they enter a room is just welcoming them.
Dedicated his life to studying dead apostles. But would rather spend an hour with a living apostle. But does not worship them.
I kind of entered this presentation thinking that he had some inside knowledge that he was going to share but I left thinking it was more the result of a lot of research and putting together various statements made by different apostles and a lot of info from the Tanner book. Are they still doing things the same way they did them in 1979? Maybe they are.
Richard Neitzel Holzapfel
He became very emotional a number of times but it felt strange to me.
Millenials interpret the church and apostles through the lens of the media.
Apostle = one sent.
Need to make sure ppl do not leave Christ if they leave the church.
If we accept Christ we have to accept those who he sends.
Prophet = spokesman , declares the mind of God.
Their Job is the ministry of reconciliation, or atonement.
1835 apostolic charge. Oliver asked each person individually if they were fully committed.
Neil Maxwell mentions accepting apostolic charge as did Holland.
Tuesday meetings for the apostles
Recommended new ecclestistical boundaries
Reports on 70s and their families and their welfare
Reports on 3 main councils missionary, temple and family, priesthood
Wednesday
Briefed on issues of current importance. Lds and non lds speakers.
Receive dept reports
Also
Budget meetings
Committees for all areas like media, missionary, temple etc.
Meet with individuals, one on one ministry
Assign 800-1200 missionaries per month one by one (I am sure you know the photo that was shown here)
Ministry outside admin building.
Photo of prophet in nursing home.
Photo of silver fox feeding homeless.
Thursday
Temple meeting. 12 in semi circle in front of presidency.
Every week 3-5 will be away from slc
Shake hands.
Sing and kneel in prayer. Rotate who chooses song.
Oaks: The veil is very thin in the temples
Transact business. Approve calls. Discuss business, policy and doctrine.
Service calls made.
Must be unanimous in decisions.
In nauvoo js gradually handed over responsibility to others.
Prayer circle started in 1842, also known as quorum of the anointed.
Met at least twice a week.
A side note here, I think he sort of avoided a whole bunch of stuff that this quorum did and made it sound like they were simply a prayer circle.
Many of his sources were 1979 book from N Eldon Tanner.
Revelation on priesthood in 78 was a result of prayer circle in the temple.
At this point I looked around looking for some diversity and realised there was not much there.
First Thu of month also meet with 70 and presiding bishopric. Calls on 12-15 ppl to bear testimony. Then dress in temple clothes and partake of sacrament and have a prayer circle. Then the rest leave and the 12 and fp go on with the rest of the business in street clothes.
Then have lunch together. Period of relaxation.
Related to exodus 24:9-11 and the last supper. Also Luke 24:29-31. John 21. NIV acts 1:4.
Meals represent communion and fellowship. Made a big deal out of the meal.
Emotional at the way the media portrays them as businessmen running lds inc
Listed all of the things that they do and ways they minister. Lots of photos.
Talked about ppl who criticise the claim that we are a lay church because none of them applied for the job and serve at great sacrifice.
Talked about sacrifices by their families. One member of the 12 whose kids went to 4 different high schools due to his callings.
No retirement ever.
Mentioned their wives who participate as the occasion requires.
Said they don't live in a bubble. Ballard "we are not out of touch with your lives". 2014.
Talked about the difference between having faith in and sustaining. We have faith in divinity but sustain our leaders.
Addressed worshipping men instead of Christ.
Practice of standing when they enter a room is just welcoming them.
Dedicated his life to studying dead apostles. But would rather spend an hour with a living apostle. But does not worship them.
I kind of entered this presentation thinking that he had some inside knowledge that he was going to share but I left thinking it was more the result of a lot of research and putting together various statements made by different apostles and a lot of info from the Tanner book. Are they still doing things the same way they did them in 1979? Maybe they are.
Abraham Lincoln and the early Mormon church
Abraham Lincoln and the early Mormon church
Ron l Anderson
Lincoln believed in revelation, keeping commandments, keeping Sabbath, well versed in scriptures, prayed, preached, did not smoke, drink, gamble.
Went to church but did not join. Was a political liability for him. Spoke against man made creeds and dogmas.
What did Lincoln think of Mormons? Don't know for sure.
Flyer was circulated by Peter cartwright saying Lincoln scoffed at Christianity.
He made a statement in response saying he had never spoken with disrespect about any denomination. RA says this included the Mormons because lots of others were speaking out against the mormons. He did not speak further about religion for five years.
Never said anything against polygamy even though it would have helped him politically. Concludes that he respected religious freedom.
Samuel and katherine mulliner came to Toronto. Became members. Headed to Ohio and saints were leaving for Missouri. Stopped and settled in Springfield Illinois. Samuel called on mission to Scotland. Katherine did laundry for Lincoln to make ends meet. That is all we know? Concludes that Lincoln spoke to katherine and knew about the church.
Lincoln lived above the globe tavern. On a trip to Springfield Joseph, hyrum, and Willard Richards stayed at that tavern. Concludes they probably ate together for 5 days.
Lincoln used the phrase "for time and eternity" as president twice.
What did the Mormons think about Lincoln?
Voted against Lincoln as a national delegate and for James Ralston
Lincoln had no sour grapes as he did not vote against nauvoo charter.
John c Bennett reported in the times and seasons. Mentioned that Lincoln voted for them even after they erased his name from the delegates ballot. Lincoln congratulated Bennett afterwards.
Joseph Smith's trial for Boggs was in a second floor courtroom that Lincoln frequented. Lincoln was not there during the trial but may have seen him there. Anderson conjectures may have shaken hands. It was national news. Women not allowed in courtroom but 3 women came in and were invited to sit up by the judge. One of the women was Mary Todd Lincoln. Another was the judge Nathaniel popes daughter.
Lincoln told a friend that Bennett's disclosures about the Mormons were not making a great stir.
Asked a friend for books about the Mormons. Four books. 3 anti returned a few days later. Last one was the book of Mormon returned 8 months later.
Referred to America as the promised land.
Referred to himself as God's humble instrument.
Brigham young did not like him. Said he was weak as water. Saints were tired of the US government. Trying to get rid of slavery and polygamy.
Brigham asked stenhouse to ask Lincoln what he thought of the Mormons. Said to tell Brigham if he would leave me alone, I'll leave him alone.
Lincoln had a problem with Indians cutting the telegraph lines in Wyoming. Wrote to Brigham to ask him to patrol the lines.
Lincoln managed to turn the tide of opinion in his favour.
Did not draft the saints to serve in the union army.
RA Said civil war was punishment for the government not protecting the rights of all people and to avenge them against their enemies.
Ron l Anderson
Lincoln believed in revelation, keeping commandments, keeping Sabbath, well versed in scriptures, prayed, preached, did not smoke, drink, gamble.
Went to church but did not join. Was a political liability for him. Spoke against man made creeds and dogmas.
What did Lincoln think of Mormons? Don't know for sure.
Flyer was circulated by Peter cartwright saying Lincoln scoffed at Christianity.
He made a statement in response saying he had never spoken with disrespect about any denomination. RA says this included the Mormons because lots of others were speaking out against the mormons. He did not speak further about religion for five years.
Never said anything against polygamy even though it would have helped him politically. Concludes that he respected religious freedom.
Samuel and katherine mulliner came to Toronto. Became members. Headed to Ohio and saints were leaving for Missouri. Stopped and settled in Springfield Illinois. Samuel called on mission to Scotland. Katherine did laundry for Lincoln to make ends meet. That is all we know? Concludes that Lincoln spoke to katherine and knew about the church.
Lincoln lived above the globe tavern. On a trip to Springfield Joseph, hyrum, and Willard Richards stayed at that tavern. Concludes they probably ate together for 5 days.
Lincoln used the phrase "for time and eternity" as president twice.
What did the Mormons think about Lincoln?
Voted against Lincoln as a national delegate and for James Ralston
Lincoln had no sour grapes as he did not vote against nauvoo charter.
John c Bennett reported in the times and seasons. Mentioned that Lincoln voted for them even after they erased his name from the delegates ballot. Lincoln congratulated Bennett afterwards.
Joseph Smith's trial for Boggs was in a second floor courtroom that Lincoln frequented. Lincoln was not there during the trial but may have seen him there. Anderson conjectures may have shaken hands. It was national news. Women not allowed in courtroom but 3 women came in and were invited to sit up by the judge. One of the women was Mary Todd Lincoln. Another was the judge Nathaniel popes daughter.
Lincoln told a friend that Bennett's disclosures about the Mormons were not making a great stir.
Asked a friend for books about the Mormons. Four books. 3 anti returned a few days later. Last one was the book of Mormon returned 8 months later.
Referred to America as the promised land.
Referred to himself as God's humble instrument.
Brigham young did not like him. Said he was weak as water. Saints were tired of the US government. Trying to get rid of slavery and polygamy.
Brigham asked stenhouse to ask Lincoln what he thought of the Mormons. Said to tell Brigham if he would leave me alone, I'll leave him alone.
Lincoln had a problem with Indians cutting the telegraph lines in Wyoming. Wrote to Brigham to ask him to patrol the lines.
Lincoln managed to turn the tide of opinion in his favour.
Did not draft the saints to serve in the union army.
RA Said civil war was punishment for the government not protecting the rights of all people and to avenge them against their enemies.
Understanding the social science research on same sex marriage
Understanding the social science research on same sex marriage
Joseph Price
Has been expert witness in ss related court cases and written papers about gender differences in parenting.
Has presented to church research department, world Congress on family, bar association.
Close friend left church over this issue.
Says this is not the churches issue. Is God allowed to have an opinion on social issues.
Quite emotional.
God has an opinion because our children are his children.
Proclamation on family used as official court document in Michigan case.
"Your ten year old knows more about gender and the family than the leading expert in the Catholic church"
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts". Daniel Patrick Moynihan.
Do children raised by a father and a mother have better outcomes than children raised by same sex parents?
Says the same sex marriage debate has highlighted how important marriage is.
Says children with father and mother do have better outcomes than single parents, step parents, cohabiting etc.
With SS marriage there are benefits such as financial and support. But no gender diversity. One parent not biologically related.
Says the opposing studies were generally not well done. Based on a no difference hypothesis.
Worries about future implications if a judge can't use biological relatedness when choosing custody. Ie. Child being awarded to a step parent over a biological parent.
When looking at studies ask about
* Confidence interval - what is the margin of error
* Representative sample - is the dataset big enough
* Replication - will they share datasets and allow other scholars to use the data
How did they recruit the sample
How likely are the respondents to tell the truth.
Issues with past research
* not using random samples
* Small sample sizes
* Excludes gay fathers
Michael Rosenfield cited as the best study from the "other side".
612k hetero couples
About 3000 ss couples
Making normal progress through school used as an indicator of outcomes.
Price did a new study using the same data that gave different results, showing they do up to 35% worse.
Every study has blind spots
Data can be reinterpreted.
Says that data sets like this one are important because each subsequent paper using the data can move us closer to truth.
Allen 2014 study on graduation rates in Canada.
Regnerus 2012 study not well liked.
Showed children of ss couples significantly more likely to be cohabiting, unemployed, on public assistance, have an affair.
How many children being raised by ss couples.
Estimates between 1-14 million in the past.
More likely 2-3 million. All children matter report.
He estimates 170k with 2 parents.
340k altogether including single gay parents.
Quoted Mark 10:6-9 as speaking against ss marriage. I struggle to see the link.
Future forms of marriage include:
Wedlease
Open marriage or monogamish
Thruples
None good for children.
Need to define what marriage is
Google Joseph Price for slides.
Joseph Price
Has been expert witness in ss related court cases and written papers about gender differences in parenting.
Has presented to church research department, world Congress on family, bar association.
Close friend left church over this issue.
Says this is not the churches issue. Is God allowed to have an opinion on social issues.
Quite emotional.
God has an opinion because our children are his children.
Proclamation on family used as official court document in Michigan case.
"Your ten year old knows more about gender and the family than the leading expert in the Catholic church"
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts". Daniel Patrick Moynihan.
Do children raised by a father and a mother have better outcomes than children raised by same sex parents?
Says the same sex marriage debate has highlighted how important marriage is.
Says children with father and mother do have better outcomes than single parents, step parents, cohabiting etc.
With SS marriage there are benefits such as financial and support. But no gender diversity. One parent not biologically related.
Says the opposing studies were generally not well done. Based on a no difference hypothesis.
Worries about future implications if a judge can't use biological relatedness when choosing custody. Ie. Child being awarded to a step parent over a biological parent.
When looking at studies ask about
* Confidence interval - what is the margin of error
* Representative sample - is the dataset big enough
* Replication - will they share datasets and allow other scholars to use the data
How did they recruit the sample
How likely are the respondents to tell the truth.
Issues with past research
* not using random samples
* Small sample sizes
* Excludes gay fathers
Michael Rosenfield cited as the best study from the "other side".
612k hetero couples
About 3000 ss couples
Making normal progress through school used as an indicator of outcomes.
Price did a new study using the same data that gave different results, showing they do up to 35% worse.
Every study has blind spots
Data can be reinterpreted.
Says that data sets like this one are important because each subsequent paper using the data can move us closer to truth.
Allen 2014 study on graduation rates in Canada.
Regnerus 2012 study not well liked.
Showed children of ss couples significantly more likely to be cohabiting, unemployed, on public assistance, have an affair.
How many children being raised by ss couples.
Estimates between 1-14 million in the past.
More likely 2-3 million. All children matter report.
He estimates 170k with 2 parents.
340k altogether including single gay parents.
Quoted Mark 10:6-9 as speaking against ss marriage. I struggle to see the link.
Future forms of marriage include:
Wedlease
Open marriage or monogamish
Thruples
None good for children.
Need to define what marriage is
Google Joseph Price for slides.
God's love in old testament history and it's contrasts with ancient and modern false gods
God's love in old testament history and it's contrasts with ancient and modern false gods
Kerry Muhlestein
Ancient scripture dept. Has degree in Egyptology
Rather interesting opening prayer that was entirely about the eclipse and worshipping god through it, and celebrating the rebirth of the sun.
We understand God's love best as a parent
Israel's history
Scriptures are all about Israel.
If you have made a covenant with God you are of the house of Israel. Therefore they all apply to us.
Patience in the exodus
Being led through the wilderness to the promised land is symbolic of guiding us through our lives to the celestial kingdom. Exodus 15
Deut 7:8 because of his love and his covenant israel/we are redeemed
Hebrew word Hesed. Most often translated as loving kindness. Special kind of love and mercy that is only available within a covenant context.
The same way that you can love everyone but have a special kind of love for your spouse, God loves his covenant ppl in a special way.
Once you have made a covenant with God you have left neutral ground forever. Said that ppl who make a covenant either work really hard to keep it or actively work against God. Interesting perspective I thought.
Stories in bible are literal but also an allegory of how God deals with us.
Rejects notion that God of the old testament is one of wrath. He sees mercy in the old testament.
Numbers 12. Story of Miriam and leprosy. Aaron and Miriam came to Moses saying they also received inspiration and why is Moses above them. Said this also happened in church history.
Talked about how our culture is divorcing itself from symbols. We are less able to learn through symbols and then less able to learn from the scriptures and temple.
Symbolic action spoke to ancient people. God speaks to us the way we expect to be spoken to.
So in response to Aaron and Miriam there was a symbolic action to speak to them. Miriam was struck with leprosy for a week. She was cleansed after a week, came back to camp and they moved on.
Talked about us becoming spiritual lepers. God is waiting for us to be ready to come back to camp and be cleansed before moving on.
The Conquest of the caananites
Essentially genocide. Sees it as a act of mercy that can be compared to the flood.
Read from John Taylor's book. Says that unborn spirits would have asked the father to save them from being born into a wicked world/society as it would be unfair. The conclusion being that God destroyed them so that they could have no more children. Prevented the wicked from sinning further and passing their sins on further. Likened it to sending a child to their room to calm down and then he will send Christ to them in the spirit world to allow them to repent.
The judges
Cycle. False gods. Captivity. Humbled. Delivered.
Or Apostacy. Oppression. Repentance. Deliverance.
7 Examples from book of judges. Chart from Parry.
Shows patience of God.
Parable of riding a bike. We are here to learn to keep our balance.
When we mess up and cry unto the Lord he sends us a deliverer.
Kings of Israel. Each does well for a while and then messes up.
Jonah. Had many chances. So he could go give Nineveh, many chances. Our God is a God of second chances. Often repeated attribute is long suffering.
Parable of the unfinished painting. Looks terrible until the end and makes us want to give up.
Lessons from Israel's fall
They set up a stone to remind them of God but eventually the stones became objects of worship. Something that started as a good thing turned into an idol. Often worshipped Jehovah and asherah together. They felt ok about worshipping other gods as long as they still worshipped Jehovah. Related to us and "worldly" idols. Accepting the values of the world but thinking we are still ok because we go to church.
If we think we can ever stop struggling we are missing the point.
God is asking us to struggle through our whole lives.
Kerry Muhlestein
Ancient scripture dept. Has degree in Egyptology
Rather interesting opening prayer that was entirely about the eclipse and worshipping god through it, and celebrating the rebirth of the sun.
We understand God's love best as a parent
Israel's history
Scriptures are all about Israel.
If you have made a covenant with God you are of the house of Israel. Therefore they all apply to us.
Patience in the exodus
Being led through the wilderness to the promised land is symbolic of guiding us through our lives to the celestial kingdom. Exodus 15
Deut 7:8 because of his love and his covenant israel/we are redeemed
Hebrew word Hesed. Most often translated as loving kindness. Special kind of love and mercy that is only available within a covenant context.
The same way that you can love everyone but have a special kind of love for your spouse, God loves his covenant ppl in a special way.
Once you have made a covenant with God you have left neutral ground forever. Said that ppl who make a covenant either work really hard to keep it or actively work against God. Interesting perspective I thought.
Stories in bible are literal but also an allegory of how God deals with us.
Rejects notion that God of the old testament is one of wrath. He sees mercy in the old testament.
Numbers 12. Story of Miriam and leprosy. Aaron and Miriam came to Moses saying they also received inspiration and why is Moses above them. Said this also happened in church history.
Talked about how our culture is divorcing itself from symbols. We are less able to learn through symbols and then less able to learn from the scriptures and temple.
Symbolic action spoke to ancient people. God speaks to us the way we expect to be spoken to.
So in response to Aaron and Miriam there was a symbolic action to speak to them. Miriam was struck with leprosy for a week. She was cleansed after a week, came back to camp and they moved on.
Talked about us becoming spiritual lepers. God is waiting for us to be ready to come back to camp and be cleansed before moving on.
The Conquest of the caananites
Essentially genocide. Sees it as a act of mercy that can be compared to the flood.
Read from John Taylor's book. Says that unborn spirits would have asked the father to save them from being born into a wicked world/society as it would be unfair. The conclusion being that God destroyed them so that they could have no more children. Prevented the wicked from sinning further and passing their sins on further. Likened it to sending a child to their room to calm down and then he will send Christ to them in the spirit world to allow them to repent.
The judges
Cycle. False gods. Captivity. Humbled. Delivered.
Or Apostacy. Oppression. Repentance. Deliverance.
7 Examples from book of judges. Chart from Parry.
Shows patience of God.
Parable of riding a bike. We are here to learn to keep our balance.
When we mess up and cry unto the Lord he sends us a deliverer.
Kings of Israel. Each does well for a while and then messes up.
Jonah. Had many chances. So he could go give Nineveh, many chances. Our God is a God of second chances. Often repeated attribute is long suffering.
Parable of the unfinished painting. Looks terrible until the end and makes us want to give up.
Lessons from Israel's fall
They set up a stone to remind them of God but eventually the stones became objects of worship. Something that started as a good thing turned into an idol. Often worshipped Jehovah and asherah together. They felt ok about worshipping other gods as long as they still worshipped Jehovah. Related to us and "worldly" idols. Accepting the values of the world but thinking we are still ok because we go to church.
If we think we can ever stop struggling we are missing the point.
God is asking us to struggle through our whole lives.
Re: Every Thursday is revelatory for us: the first presidency and the quorum of the twelve in the temple
Thank you for writing this up, I have been looking forward to it. I thought that the apostles one had some interesting tidbits.
It's also interesting that he has to point out that there is no leader worship. It seems such comments are only necessary when it really looks like he is describing leader worship.
And forcing your family to sacrifice for a job is pretty common. That doesn't show how much these men sacrifice, it shows how little they care about the sacrifices they are forcing on their families.
I especially found the line "Millenials interpret the church and apostles through the lens of the media." interesting. They are battling for the worldview of the rising generation and the war appears to be taking a turn for the worse. The media is a really big, unspecific tent so other than an emotional rallying cry against whatever media you dislike this statement is pretty empty.LostGirl wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:03 pm Every Thursday is revelatory for us: the first presidency and the quorum of the twelve in the temple
Richard Neitzel Holzapfel
He became very emotional a number of times but it felt strange to me.
Millenials interpret the church and apostles through the lens of the media.
....
Emotional at the way the media portrays them as businessmen running lds inc
Listed all of the things that they do and ways they minister. Lots of photos.
Talked about ppl who criticise the claim that we are a lay church because none of them applied for the job and serve at great sacrifice.
Talked about sacrifices by their families. One member of the 12 whose kids went to 4 different high schools due to his callings.
No retirement ever.
Mentioned their wives who participate as the occasion requires.
Said they don't live in a bubble. Ballard "we are not out of touch with your lives". 2014.
Talked about the difference between having faith in and sustaining. We have faith in divinity but sustain our leaders.
Addressed worshipping men instead of Christ.
Practice of standing when they enter a room is just welcoming them.
....
It's also interesting that he has to point out that there is no leader worship. It seems such comments are only necessary when it really looks like he is describing leader worship.
And forcing your family to sacrifice for a job is pretty common. That doesn't show how much these men sacrifice, it shows how little they care about the sacrifices they are forcing on their families.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut
Re: Education week report
For a long time, the church hasn't understood the nature of the demographic. Technology has created numerous platforms that allows anyone to broadcast any message to the world at virtually no cost. This creates a content vacuum that sucks the attention span away from stale, old school, routine organizations that don't have any vision to change. Our brain wiring is changing in real time, chasing the constant need for stimuli that high speed internet and never ending content provides.Linked wrote:I especially found the line "Millenials interpret the church and apostles through the lens of the media." interesting. They are battling for the worldview of the rising generation and the war appears to be taking a turn for the worse. The media is a really big, unspecific tent so other than an emotional rallying cry against whatever media you dislike this statement is pretty empty.
The answer to the church's problem with retaining youth and members is rather simple. Provide new content. This wouldn't be difficult to do when the foundation of the doctrine is already built on prophets, seers, and revelators. The apostles just need to reveal new things and the membership will continue to eat at the trough.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
A history of the church in 33 objects. Part 1.
A history of the church in 33 objects. Part 1.
Casey Griffiths
Writing a book called a history of the church in 100 objects
Material history - study of history through objects
1830 edition of bom with p.p.pratt on cover
The watch John Taylor was wearing in jail
Hauns mill milestone
Masonic apron worn by Joseph
Stucco from Kirtland temple
Joseph fielding Smith typewriter
Medical textbook owned by Nathan Smith, Dr who treated Joseph as a boy
Beginnings 1820 to 1831
Membership: approx 280. Smith's, whitmers and knights mostly.
Joseph Smith seer stone. Believe used during translation. Use of seer stones at that time not uncommon. Says church did not try to cover up use of seer stone. Published in friend in 1974. Emma Smith, Martin Harris, David whitmer were the primary witnesses of the seer stone use. They were not trusted for a time so the urim and thummim narrative developed.
11 other people in town also had seer stones. Emphasized use of seer stone not uncommon.
Wilford woodruff put a seer stone on the altar of the temple while giving the dedicating prayer.
Some think it was like training wheels and he didn't need it for revelation later.
Told story of Martin Harris sneaking a swap of the seer stone to see if he could still translate and he couldn't.
1830 edition of book of Mormon. 5000 printed. They think owned by Joseph. Has markings.
Another one owned by Samuel. At the back he underlines and stars his name in the list of witnesses.
Another one owned by hyrum Smith. Ended up given to an African American family for 160 years.
Two church centers 1831-1839 Ohio and Missouri
Mentioned the 1832 first vision account again and showed photo
Mentioned that Joseph first heard a minister give a sermon about James 1:5 and asking God.
The phinney bible. Used for the Joseph Smith translation. Covered in markings. Not actually a translation but a recasting of the text by the spirit. A most half of d&c received during this period of translation and had a big impact on the d&c. Some notations were not clear. Maybe just ink blots. So our version does not necessarily match exactly the changes in this bible.
Levi jackman deed of consecration. Shows how it worked. Edward partridge as bishop.
Matching deed of stewardship back to Levi jackman.
O m Allen deed mentions consecrating not only his assets but his debt and one wife and 4 children poorly clad.
Brigham young asjed joseph who shall be the judge of what is surplus property? Joseph said let them be the judge themselves, for I care not if they do not give a single dime.
Pipe fragments found in Kirtland. Found about 100 yards away from Newell k Whitney store. Upstairs was the school of the prophets. Kitchen was right underneath where they were smoking and dripping tobacco on the floor. They threw their pipes in the fire after word of wisdom revelation.
Book of commandments. 1833. 13 existing copies. Most copies destroyed by mob. Very small book. Contains up to section 84. Community of Christ has Joseph's copy.
Casey Griffiths
Writing a book called a history of the church in 100 objects
Material history - study of history through objects
1830 edition of bom with p.p.pratt on cover
The watch John Taylor was wearing in jail
Hauns mill milestone
Masonic apron worn by Joseph
Stucco from Kirtland temple
Joseph fielding Smith typewriter
Medical textbook owned by Nathan Smith, Dr who treated Joseph as a boy
Beginnings 1820 to 1831
Membership: approx 280. Smith's, whitmers and knights mostly.
Joseph Smith seer stone. Believe used during translation. Use of seer stones at that time not uncommon. Says church did not try to cover up use of seer stone. Published in friend in 1974. Emma Smith, Martin Harris, David whitmer were the primary witnesses of the seer stone use. They were not trusted for a time so the urim and thummim narrative developed.
11 other people in town also had seer stones. Emphasized use of seer stone not uncommon.
Wilford woodruff put a seer stone on the altar of the temple while giving the dedicating prayer.
Some think it was like training wheels and he didn't need it for revelation later.
Told story of Martin Harris sneaking a swap of the seer stone to see if he could still translate and he couldn't.
1830 edition of book of Mormon. 5000 printed. They think owned by Joseph. Has markings.
Another one owned by Samuel. At the back he underlines and stars his name in the list of witnesses.
Another one owned by hyrum Smith. Ended up given to an African American family for 160 years.
Two church centers 1831-1839 Ohio and Missouri
Mentioned the 1832 first vision account again and showed photo
Mentioned that Joseph first heard a minister give a sermon about James 1:5 and asking God.
The phinney bible. Used for the Joseph Smith translation. Covered in markings. Not actually a translation but a recasting of the text by the spirit. A most half of d&c received during this period of translation and had a big impact on the d&c. Some notations were not clear. Maybe just ink blots. So our version does not necessarily match exactly the changes in this bible.
Levi jackman deed of consecration. Shows how it worked. Edward partridge as bishop.
Matching deed of stewardship back to Levi jackman.
O m Allen deed mentions consecrating not only his assets but his debt and one wife and 4 children poorly clad.
Brigham young asjed joseph who shall be the judge of what is surplus property? Joseph said let them be the judge themselves, for I care not if they do not give a single dime.
Pipe fragments found in Kirtland. Found about 100 yards away from Newell k Whitney store. Upstairs was the school of the prophets. Kitchen was right underneath where they were smoking and dripping tobacco on the floor. They threw their pipes in the fire after word of wisdom revelation.
Book of commandments. 1833. 13 existing copies. Most copies destroyed by mob. Very small book. Contains up to section 84. Community of Christ has Joseph's copy.
Welcoming every soul: generational poverty
Welcoming every soul: poverty
Doug richens, special services manager, lds church.
Works in priesthood and family department.
Works in areas of Disability, prisons, suicide, abuse, native American, mental health, ssa
Invited action based on information given today
Struck me as a very humble man
D&c 52:40
Brother went to Venezuela on mission. Showed slides after. He was shocked by the poverty. So his father took him to downtown slc where he saw families in poverty in his own city.
Holland: Jesus first and foremost messianic duty woud be to bless the poor, including the poor in spirit.
Talked about the book by Marie kondo. The life changing magic of tidying up. Book about a philosophy bordering on theology.
Book talks about how we tell our kids to tidy their room but like us, they are rarely taught how to do it.
Ministering to poverty is the same. We know we should do it but are not trained in how to do it.
Poverty: the extent to which an individual lives without resources.
*food
Asked about audience local elementary schools and whether they knew what percentage of kids qualify for free or discounted lunches. One said 72%.
Consider how many calories you can get for $5. Ppl in generational poverty have to stretch it further so do not get good quality calories.
*education
Level of participation is not increasing among those in poverty
*time
Said he will tread lightly
Concept of time is different for those in poverty
E.g. takes much longer to do laundry at laundromat using public transportation
Leveraging of time is very different
Have to spend a great deal of time dealing with govt agencies
*medical care
Inner city clinics show the difference
Involves just as much ministry as dentistry
Self care suffers. Follow ups may not happen. Chronic illness. Different mindset.
The poor are poor in all things
* power
Sense of power struggle between those in poverty and those in power - govt, police etc. Mentioned that we talk about priesthood power and authority and it can be a barrier.
Women hold great power in generational poverty. There is a set of social acceptable behaviours in that community that are just as real as in our community.
A broader perspective
There are different levels to engage on
*Global
Natural resources
Clean water
Geography
war and conflict
Progressive culture
Religious freedom
Your geography and cuture and resources affect your level of poverty.
This arena is full of politics and corruption as well as opportunities to assist.
Church is aware of these realities.
Not trying to bring water and crops to every country but trying to improve lives through education.
*Regional
Laws
Education
Freedoms
Women's rights
Safety and security
Economic security
*Local
Local resources
Food bank
Affordable housing
School funding
Employment opportunities
Healthcare
Safety and security
Drugs and crime
Numbers
Be mindful and careful of the data
22k children die each day due to extreme poverty globally
80% humanity live on less than $10 day
Half the world lives on less than 2.50 a day
Behind each statistic is a whole world of understanding. Ask better questions.
Values and priorities
*mindset
Lower class - relationships. Intense focus on relationships first. Will sacrifice achievement to keep relationships intact. Drives us bonkers trying to help them with employment etc.
Middle class - achievement. Everything in our training is about progression and one step after another. Church mirrors this model. Achievement centric thinking. Savings, investment, improvement. Care about quality. Travel sometimes. Looking at saving enough.
Upper class - connections. Care about presentation. Travel a lot. Looking at heritage and passing money on.
None is necessarily better or worse, just different. Could debate which is most christlike.
Need to understand each other's mental model.
Imagine if a ward council understood this.
Consider completely different family dynamics and how our doctrine affects these families.
Multifamily homes - how does that affect those in the home
Understand their behaviour.
Doug richens, special services manager, lds church.
Works in priesthood and family department.
Works in areas of Disability, prisons, suicide, abuse, native American, mental health, ssa
Invited action based on information given today
Struck me as a very humble man
D&c 52:40
Brother went to Venezuela on mission. Showed slides after. He was shocked by the poverty. So his father took him to downtown slc where he saw families in poverty in his own city.
Holland: Jesus first and foremost messianic duty woud be to bless the poor, including the poor in spirit.
Talked about the book by Marie kondo. The life changing magic of tidying up. Book about a philosophy bordering on theology.
Book talks about how we tell our kids to tidy their room but like us, they are rarely taught how to do it.
Ministering to poverty is the same. We know we should do it but are not trained in how to do it.
Poverty: the extent to which an individual lives without resources.
*food
Asked about audience local elementary schools and whether they knew what percentage of kids qualify for free or discounted lunches. One said 72%.
Consider how many calories you can get for $5. Ppl in generational poverty have to stretch it further so do not get good quality calories.
*education
Level of participation is not increasing among those in poverty
*time
Said he will tread lightly
Concept of time is different for those in poverty
E.g. takes much longer to do laundry at laundromat using public transportation
Leveraging of time is very different
Have to spend a great deal of time dealing with govt agencies
*medical care
Inner city clinics show the difference
Involves just as much ministry as dentistry
Self care suffers. Follow ups may not happen. Chronic illness. Different mindset.
The poor are poor in all things
* power
Sense of power struggle between those in poverty and those in power - govt, police etc. Mentioned that we talk about priesthood power and authority and it can be a barrier.
Women hold great power in generational poverty. There is a set of social acceptable behaviours in that community that are just as real as in our community.
A broader perspective
There are different levels to engage on
*Global
Natural resources
Clean water
Geography
war and conflict
Progressive culture
Religious freedom
Your geography and cuture and resources affect your level of poverty.
This arena is full of politics and corruption as well as opportunities to assist.
Church is aware of these realities.
Not trying to bring water and crops to every country but trying to improve lives through education.
*Regional
Laws
Education
Freedoms
Women's rights
Safety and security
Economic security
*Local
Local resources
Food bank
Affordable housing
School funding
Employment opportunities
Healthcare
Safety and security
Drugs and crime
Numbers
Be mindful and careful of the data
22k children die each day due to extreme poverty globally
80% humanity live on less than $10 day
Half the world lives on less than 2.50 a day
Behind each statistic is a whole world of understanding. Ask better questions.
Values and priorities
*mindset
Lower class - relationships. Intense focus on relationships first. Will sacrifice achievement to keep relationships intact. Drives us bonkers trying to help them with employment etc.
Middle class - achievement. Everything in our training is about progression and one step after another. Church mirrors this model. Achievement centric thinking. Savings, investment, improvement. Care about quality. Travel sometimes. Looking at saving enough.
Upper class - connections. Care about presentation. Travel a lot. Looking at heritage and passing money on.
None is necessarily better or worse, just different. Could debate which is most christlike.
Need to understand each other's mental model.
Imagine if a ward council understood this.
Consider completely different family dynamics and how our doctrine affects these families.
Multifamily homes - how does that affect those in the home
Understand their behaviour.
Re: Understanding the social science research on same sex marriage
Unfortunately, Joseph Price isn't really going to be able to help you out on that. He can help you understand a very biased, inaccurate, prejudiced perspective on what he, the Church, and many other religious zealots would like the social science research to be. He's not going to give a good understanding of what the social science research actually says.
Price was an expert witness in the very significant DeBoer v. Snyder case in Michigan in 2014. This is basically one of only two court cases that actually heard witnesses. (The other being the Prop 8 case, Hollingsworth v. Perry.) I have no idea what other court cases Price might be referring to by "ss related court cases".
Basically, in the Prop 8 case, the anti-gays discovered that they had no witnesses and no case. The anti-gay lawyer's only real witness, David Blankenhorn, ended up providing the pro-gay side the best statements in the trial, "we would be more American on the day we permitted same-sex marriage than we were on the day before". The judge allowed Blankenhorn to testify against gay marriage though he stated that if there were a jury present he probably wouldn't have allowed it. In the ruling, the judge determined that Blankenhorn lacked sufficient background to be qualified as an expert witness and disregarded his testimony. Later, Blankenhorn came out publicly in favor of gay marriage.
Afterwards, the conservative Heritage Foundation gathered together a meeting of conservative social scientists. They brainstormed what they should do in response. The plan was for several researchers to create and publish research showing that gay marriage is harmful so that when the next case rolled around they would have witnesses to present in court. Joseph Price was one of these researchers. The chance came up in DeBoer v. Snyder in Michigan. The research was rigorously challenged by the pro-gay side. The judge ruled that none of these anti-gay researchers provided anything useful, reliable, or credible.
From Wikipedia:
From the court ruling:Joseph Price
Economics professor from Brigham Young University who worked with Allen. Price also did his own study on the number of people who are gay or bisexual. This was his first study on same-sex parenting. Previous research involved healthy eating, the National Basketball Association, pornography and marriage and media impact on families, among other projects. Price signed onto an amicus brief with both Allen and Regnerus urging the Supreme Court to uphold California’s Proposition 8. Price testified on March 4, 2014 about his 2012 study that reached a different conclusion than Rosenfeld using the same data set. He said his study concluded that children raised in a home with a married father and mother have 35 percent greater odds of "making normal progress in school" than children of same-sex parents.
Price's research in this area is extraneous at best. It is poorly done, not really his area of expertise, and provides no reliable conclusions. He managed to achieve the study results he sought but there is no reason to give his study any credence or weight.The Court was unable to accord the testimony of Marks, Price, and Allen any significant
weight. Marks's testimony is largely unbelievable. ... They, along with Regnerus, clearly represent a fringe viewpoint that is rejected by
the vast majority of their colleagues across a variety of social science fields. ...
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")
Re: Education week report
Thanks Jeffret, just noting again that these are just notes of what the presenters are saying and are not my own opinions. I am taking an observational approach to avoid becoming very frustrated.
I am actually finding the week quite intriguing because I am getting a sense for the current approach the church is taking in a number of areas.
I am actually finding the week quite intriguing because I am getting a sense for the current approach the church is taking in a number of areas.
Re: Education week report
My thought coming out of the class was actually that it would appear to be possible to take raw data and manipulate it to say just about anything as he and Rosenfield managed to come to completely different conclusions with exactly the same data.He managed to achieve the study results he sought but there is no reason to give his study any credence or weight.
I am trying not to get annoyed by presenters who assume that every audience member has exactly the same opinion on controversial issues as they do.
Council of fifty
Council of fifty
Ronald esplin. Editor of Joseph Smith papers
"Gone are the days when the history of the church is just interesting. Gone are the days when it is only important. In our day, the history of the church is urgent."
Elder N Devn Cornish, church history dept
Why? Our history can either bless and strengthen us or it can be used as a weapon against us.
Last organisation Joseph Smith was involved in creating.
Our history matters to us. Helps us understand how God works with man. Gave examples such as it matters whether Moses actually talked to God, it matters whether Moroni walked the earth. Matters whether Brigham young was shrewd and cunning and outsmarted rivals or whether he was called of God.
Current curriculum is inadequate. Trying to improve via Joseph Smith papers.
Now have Kirtland revelation book
Also have book of commandments and revelations.
Says was buried in the fp office and they didn't know what they had.
Even as more documents were made available, the records of the council of fifty were still not made available. They became a litmus test for just how transparent the church was going to be.
He wrote a paper on council of 50 in 1971.
Was able to go through archives in 70s to pull together the records of Brigham young. 10k outgoing letters. 35k incoming letters.
Found a declaration of the 12 in handwriting of Orson Hyde. Made by Joseph Smith to council of fifty not long before his death. Was asked to help publish in 2008 and agreed if he could get access to the council minutes. Could not get access so they went ahead without him.
Found out Marvin Jensen had a typescript of the council minutes.
William Clayton was clerk and scribe. Records keep on loose sheets and were buried in June 1884. Was told by Joseph to burn or bury them so they would not get into the hands of enemies. A week later he dug them up and copied them into books. Copying the records of the kingdom. CO50 also known as kingdom of God.
William completed copies in Jan 46. Took records as they crossed the Mississippi. Then gave to Brigham as he was about to leave on his trek.
Then lent to church historians office, back to BY.
Then George a cannon became keeper of the records.
John Taylor asked elder Richards to find the records, thinking they would restart the council. Found them in a locked box but cannon had the key in Washington.
Eventually they read them to figure out what to do with them
Then L John nuttal
Then Gibbs, fp secretary.
Then to Heber j Grant.
Joseph Anderson worked as FP secretary until he was 80. At 87 assigned to historical department. One day waiting for meeting to start and the council came up. JA asked about what it was and what it did. He asked how explain and others knew about it. Turns out in RAs early days he was given a tour of the file room. There was a box labelled council of fifty and they said he would not need that box. He never looked in it.
K of g on spine of the 3 volumes.
Record of the council of fifty, or kingdom of God. 1844, 45
2013 church announced that they would be allowing the church history dept to publish the minutes.
What was known before their release?
Info from diaries
Brigham allowed historians to extract info
Books
Joseph Smith and the world government
Quest for empire
D michael quinn journal article 1980
Andrew f ehat article on how the council operated
Formal name:
The kingdom of God and his laws with the keys and powers...
1844 the literal kingdom of God and the church of God are two distinct things - Joseph
The laws of the kingdom are not designed to effect our salvation hereafter.
Co50 was a civil not an ecclesiastical organisation.
Kingdom is for the safety and protection of the members and their rights.
Co50 provided a pattern of polticial government under the priesthood.
Two aspects
Millenial aspect. Saw council as the beginning of the council prophesied by Daniel. Also saw it as a pattern of how govt would function when Christ returned.
Practical aspect.
Functioning govt of Utah for 3 years 49-51
Efforts to seek redress from govt 're Missouri
Building nauvoo house
Joseph Smith's election campaign 1844
Indian relations - making friends
Finding a new home for the saints Feb 1844 - duty of the council to fill out this mission
Mission statement
Voted to burn the minutes of the first 4 meetings. Clayton recreated them later.
11 March 1844. All agreed to look for a place where they could go to establish a theocracy. Explains secrecy. Intended to leave the U.S. and form a govt of their own, Texas Oregon or California considered.
3 vols. 780 pages. 4x6 in dimension
New book what the records reveal about Mormon history.
Quote from Joseph Smith
Arguing that the agency God gave His children requires mortals also to grant and safeguard the freedom of religion, Joseph Smith declared: “God cannot save or damn a man only on the principle that every man acts, chooses and worships for himself; hence the importance of thrusting from us every spirit of bigotry and intolerance towards a mans religious sentiments, that spirit which has drenched the earth with blood— When a man feels the least temptation to such intolerance he ought to spurn it from him. It becomes our duty on account of this intolerance and corruption—the inalienable right of man being to think as he pleases—worship as he pleases &c being the first law of every thing that is sacred—to guard every ground all the days of our lives. I will appeal to every man in this council beginning at the youngest that when he arrives to the years of Hoary age he will have to say that the principles of intolerance and bigotry never had a place in this kingdom, nor in my breast, and that he is even then ready to die rather than yield to such things. Nothing can reclaim the human mind from its ignorance, bigotry, superstition &c but those grand and sublime principles of equal rights and universal freedom to all men. . . . When I have used every means in my power to exalt a mans mind, and have taught him righteous principles to no effect—he is still inclined in his darkness, yet the same principles of liberty and charity would ever be manifested by me as though he embraced it. Hence in all governments or political transactions a mans religious opinions should never be called in question. A man should be judged by the law independent of religious prejudice.”
Other things in the minutes illuminate personalities like porter Rockwell.
In 1845 the council members felt that they were pressing forward with what Joseph wanted.
4 Feb 1845. BY brought members together and they discussed and voted on whether they should continue the council and should BY be the leader. All voted in favour of BY as standing chair and legal successor of Joseph Smith.
26 March 1844. Last charge of Joseph to the 12. Said he had given them all of the keys and they should go forward. Orson Hyde made a statement about Joseph's preparations for passing authority and was discussed in council a year later. Orson hoped to publish it, endorsing the 12 as Joseph's successors. Hyde wanted the 12 to sign it. BY not on board with publishing. Told OH he could publish his farewell to Rigdonism, but not the charge to the 12.
Council adjourned as they cross the plains. Reconvened in 1849 and became the govt of Utah.
Reinstated again in 1880-1885 by John Taylor. With Franklin s Richards and Heber j Grant.
All minutes will be online one year after publication.
Ronald esplin. Editor of Joseph Smith papers
"Gone are the days when the history of the church is just interesting. Gone are the days when it is only important. In our day, the history of the church is urgent."
Elder N Devn Cornish, church history dept
Why? Our history can either bless and strengthen us or it can be used as a weapon against us.
Last organisation Joseph Smith was involved in creating.
Our history matters to us. Helps us understand how God works with man. Gave examples such as it matters whether Moses actually talked to God, it matters whether Moroni walked the earth. Matters whether Brigham young was shrewd and cunning and outsmarted rivals or whether he was called of God.
Current curriculum is inadequate. Trying to improve via Joseph Smith papers.
Now have Kirtland revelation book
Also have book of commandments and revelations.
Says was buried in the fp office and they didn't know what they had.
Even as more documents were made available, the records of the council of fifty were still not made available. They became a litmus test for just how transparent the church was going to be.
He wrote a paper on council of 50 in 1971.
Was able to go through archives in 70s to pull together the records of Brigham young. 10k outgoing letters. 35k incoming letters.
Found a declaration of the 12 in handwriting of Orson Hyde. Made by Joseph Smith to council of fifty not long before his death. Was asked to help publish in 2008 and agreed if he could get access to the council minutes. Could not get access so they went ahead without him.
Found out Marvin Jensen had a typescript of the council minutes.
William Clayton was clerk and scribe. Records keep on loose sheets and were buried in June 1884. Was told by Joseph to burn or bury them so they would not get into the hands of enemies. A week later he dug them up and copied them into books. Copying the records of the kingdom. CO50 also known as kingdom of God.
William completed copies in Jan 46. Took records as they crossed the Mississippi. Then gave to Brigham as he was about to leave on his trek.
Then lent to church historians office, back to BY.
Then George a cannon became keeper of the records.
John Taylor asked elder Richards to find the records, thinking they would restart the council. Found them in a locked box but cannon had the key in Washington.
Eventually they read them to figure out what to do with them
Then L John nuttal
Then Gibbs, fp secretary.
Then to Heber j Grant.
Joseph Anderson worked as FP secretary until he was 80. At 87 assigned to historical department. One day waiting for meeting to start and the council came up. JA asked about what it was and what it did. He asked how explain and others knew about it. Turns out in RAs early days he was given a tour of the file room. There was a box labelled council of fifty and they said he would not need that box. He never looked in it.
K of g on spine of the 3 volumes.
Record of the council of fifty, or kingdom of God. 1844, 45
2013 church announced that they would be allowing the church history dept to publish the minutes.
What was known before their release?
Info from diaries
Brigham allowed historians to extract info
Books
Joseph Smith and the world government
Quest for empire
D michael quinn journal article 1980
Andrew f ehat article on how the council operated
Formal name:
The kingdom of God and his laws with the keys and powers...
1844 the literal kingdom of God and the church of God are two distinct things - Joseph
The laws of the kingdom are not designed to effect our salvation hereafter.
Co50 was a civil not an ecclesiastical organisation.
Kingdom is for the safety and protection of the members and their rights.
Co50 provided a pattern of polticial government under the priesthood.
Two aspects
Millenial aspect. Saw council as the beginning of the council prophesied by Daniel. Also saw it as a pattern of how govt would function when Christ returned.
Practical aspect.
Functioning govt of Utah for 3 years 49-51
Efforts to seek redress from govt 're Missouri
Building nauvoo house
Joseph Smith's election campaign 1844
Indian relations - making friends
Finding a new home for the saints Feb 1844 - duty of the council to fill out this mission
Mission statement
Voted to burn the minutes of the first 4 meetings. Clayton recreated them later.
11 March 1844. All agreed to look for a place where they could go to establish a theocracy. Explains secrecy. Intended to leave the U.S. and form a govt of their own, Texas Oregon or California considered.
3 vols. 780 pages. 4x6 in dimension
New book what the records reveal about Mormon history.
Quote from Joseph Smith
Arguing that the agency God gave His children requires mortals also to grant and safeguard the freedom of religion, Joseph Smith declared: “God cannot save or damn a man only on the principle that every man acts, chooses and worships for himself; hence the importance of thrusting from us every spirit of bigotry and intolerance towards a mans religious sentiments, that spirit which has drenched the earth with blood— When a man feels the least temptation to such intolerance he ought to spurn it from him. It becomes our duty on account of this intolerance and corruption—the inalienable right of man being to think as he pleases—worship as he pleases &c being the first law of every thing that is sacred—to guard every ground all the days of our lives. I will appeal to every man in this council beginning at the youngest that when he arrives to the years of Hoary age he will have to say that the principles of intolerance and bigotry never had a place in this kingdom, nor in my breast, and that he is even then ready to die rather than yield to such things. Nothing can reclaim the human mind from its ignorance, bigotry, superstition &c but those grand and sublime principles of equal rights and universal freedom to all men. . . . When I have used every means in my power to exalt a mans mind, and have taught him righteous principles to no effect—he is still inclined in his darkness, yet the same principles of liberty and charity would ever be manifested by me as though he embraced it. Hence in all governments or political transactions a mans religious opinions should never be called in question. A man should be judged by the law independent of religious prejudice.”
Other things in the minutes illuminate personalities like porter Rockwell.
In 1845 the council members felt that they were pressing forward with what Joseph wanted.
4 Feb 1845. BY brought members together and they discussed and voted on whether they should continue the council and should BY be the leader. All voted in favour of BY as standing chair and legal successor of Joseph Smith.
26 March 1844. Last charge of Joseph to the 12. Said he had given them all of the keys and they should go forward. Orson Hyde made a statement about Joseph's preparations for passing authority and was discussed in council a year later. Orson hoped to publish it, endorsing the 12 as Joseph's successors. Hyde wanted the 12 to sign it. BY not on board with publishing. Told OH he could publish his farewell to Rigdonism, but not the charge to the 12.
Council adjourned as they cross the plains. Reconvened in 1849 and became the govt of Utah.
Reinstated again in 1880-1885 by John Taylor. With Franklin s Richards and Heber j Grant.
All minutes will be online one year after publication.
Joseph Smith's seer stones
Joseph Smith's seer stones
Michael h Mackay
Material Mormonism. Why religious objects matter.
We have a specific way of expressing our religion. Outpouring of emotion. Why do we express our devotion in these ways.
We become shocked when we hear about a seer stone because we live in a very secular environment. We celebrate Christmas with mass consumption.
1. Bodies matter. Our spirits are matter too.
We experience earth life through our senses. Transfer of authority is by touch. Music important. Spiritual experiences exhibit themselves through our senses.
2. Things matter. Sacred space and sacred things can define our spiritual experiences. E.g. ppl going to the sacred grove to relive the experience. Dressing in white.
Sacred places and things don't come easily. Behaviour shapes sacred spaces.
E.g. how we behave in the temple.
Culture can shape sacred things. E.g.. garments different in Joseph's time.
E.g.. glossolalia currently not accepted as expression of devotion. These days more quiet expressions such as following word of wisdom.
Things matter in scripture
Moses on mountain - finger of God inscribes stone tablets
Beshazar, Daniel, God's finger writing words on the wall
Rev 2:17 Joseph says relevant to the temple. Everyone who enters celestial kingdom given white stone with new name on
Liahona
Mosiah 2nd 2 stones bound in metal
Book of Mormon Nephite interpreters
Joseph given the same two stones used by mosiah in book of ether
1833 anti Mormon starts relating seer stones to magical practices so Joseph starts calling them urim and thummim to label it as a religious practice.
Gave him the power of seers. Like a coronation, being crowned the prophet of the restoration.
Brother of Jared also had seer stones
Are these two stones the same ones passed down to Mosiah. Don't know.
Idea of revelation coming through objects goes back to the Hebrew bible. No example given
Folk practices and religious objects
Joseph uses the interpreters to translate the book of lehi. Hard to use. Designed for ancient people. Turns to another seer stone.
Joseph grew up in a culture where is was common to receive revelation through seer stones.
Common idea that native Americans were the lost tribes of Israel.
Manifest destiny - American ideology that God gave us this land.
The land is Zion to the American people and Joseph is caught up in these ideas.
Used folk practice to find water which led to treasure digging, was connected to Christianity.
List of local residents with seer stones
Show an artwork that they commissioned showing a young Joseph finding his first seer stone.
1826 comes to the point where he realises that he has misunderstood what he should be doing and starts to see these objects as religious objects rather than folk magic objects.
Normalizing these practices is important.
Alma 37:23 reference to gazelam stone. Joseph uses the pseudonym gazelam. Ww phelps identifies him as gazelam.
BY used to say that Joseph was guided to his stones by revelation.
One at lake Erie. Saw a vision of where he should go. Digs under a tree. Don't know if it was the white one or brown one. Speculation is that it is the brown stone.
Through the first stone he goes to chase farm and digs 30 feet down and finds the white stone.
Eventually gave Oliver cowdrey the brown stone, kept until he died. Then went to BY. Represents passing of authority through seers in the BoM, so it has implications for BY.
Kept white one until he died.
Sections 3,6,7,11,14,17, 34, canadian copyright declaration and BoM come through seer stone.
Also sees visions of the bible taking place and revises that too. Also Newell k Whitney patriarchal blessing.
At least some of book of Abraham claimed to have been done via seer stone.
What happened to them?
Brown stone
Oliver
Elizabeth Whitmer cowdrey ( whitmers upset that it was passed on)
Phineas young
BY
Zina Huntington young
Zina Williams card
Wilford woodruff
Joseph f Smith family
ended up with the Joseph fielding Smith family and eventually first presidency.
White stone - at one point wilford woodruff had it
Today both stones in the FP vault.
Represents passing of power and authority.
Question asked why they show the brown stone, or should it be kept sacred. Arguments both ways.
Question - training wheel model? He does not agree with it.
Wilford woodruff is the only record of another prophet using the stone. Dedicated the white stone on the temple altar.
Question - Hebrew bible use of stones in debate among scholars
Michael h Mackay
Material Mormonism. Why religious objects matter.
We have a specific way of expressing our religion. Outpouring of emotion. Why do we express our devotion in these ways.
We become shocked when we hear about a seer stone because we live in a very secular environment. We celebrate Christmas with mass consumption.
1. Bodies matter. Our spirits are matter too.
We experience earth life through our senses. Transfer of authority is by touch. Music important. Spiritual experiences exhibit themselves through our senses.
2. Things matter. Sacred space and sacred things can define our spiritual experiences. E.g. ppl going to the sacred grove to relive the experience. Dressing in white.
Sacred places and things don't come easily. Behaviour shapes sacred spaces.
E.g. how we behave in the temple.
Culture can shape sacred things. E.g.. garments different in Joseph's time.
E.g.. glossolalia currently not accepted as expression of devotion. These days more quiet expressions such as following word of wisdom.
Things matter in scripture
Moses on mountain - finger of God inscribes stone tablets
Beshazar, Daniel, God's finger writing words on the wall
Rev 2:17 Joseph says relevant to the temple. Everyone who enters celestial kingdom given white stone with new name on
Liahona
Mosiah 2nd 2 stones bound in metal
Book of Mormon Nephite interpreters
Joseph given the same two stones used by mosiah in book of ether
1833 anti Mormon starts relating seer stones to magical practices so Joseph starts calling them urim and thummim to label it as a religious practice.
Gave him the power of seers. Like a coronation, being crowned the prophet of the restoration.
Brother of Jared also had seer stones
Are these two stones the same ones passed down to Mosiah. Don't know.
Idea of revelation coming through objects goes back to the Hebrew bible. No example given
Folk practices and religious objects
Joseph uses the interpreters to translate the book of lehi. Hard to use. Designed for ancient people. Turns to another seer stone.
Joseph grew up in a culture where is was common to receive revelation through seer stones.
Common idea that native Americans were the lost tribes of Israel.
Manifest destiny - American ideology that God gave us this land.
The land is Zion to the American people and Joseph is caught up in these ideas.
Used folk practice to find water which led to treasure digging, was connected to Christianity.
List of local residents with seer stones
Show an artwork that they commissioned showing a young Joseph finding his first seer stone.
1826 comes to the point where he realises that he has misunderstood what he should be doing and starts to see these objects as religious objects rather than folk magic objects.
Normalizing these practices is important.
Alma 37:23 reference to gazelam stone. Joseph uses the pseudonym gazelam. Ww phelps identifies him as gazelam.
BY used to say that Joseph was guided to his stones by revelation.
One at lake Erie. Saw a vision of where he should go. Digs under a tree. Don't know if it was the white one or brown one. Speculation is that it is the brown stone.
Through the first stone he goes to chase farm and digs 30 feet down and finds the white stone.
Eventually gave Oliver cowdrey the brown stone, kept until he died. Then went to BY. Represents passing of authority through seers in the BoM, so it has implications for BY.
Kept white one until he died.
Sections 3,6,7,11,14,17, 34, canadian copyright declaration and BoM come through seer stone.
Also sees visions of the bible taking place and revises that too. Also Newell k Whitney patriarchal blessing.
At least some of book of Abraham claimed to have been done via seer stone.
What happened to them?
Brown stone
Oliver
Elizabeth Whitmer cowdrey ( whitmers upset that it was passed on)
Phineas young
BY
Zina Huntington young
Zina Williams card
Wilford woodruff
Joseph f Smith family
ended up with the Joseph fielding Smith family and eventually first presidency.
White stone - at one point wilford woodruff had it
Today both stones in the FP vault.
Represents passing of power and authority.
Question asked why they show the brown stone, or should it be kept sacred. Arguments both ways.
Question - training wheel model? He does not agree with it.
Wilford woodruff is the only record of another prophet using the stone. Dedicated the white stone on the temple altar.
Question - Hebrew bible use of stones in debate among scholars
Re: Understanding the social science research on same sex marriage
Totally irrelevant. A non-sequitur.
God could have an opinion on social issues. (If he existed.) Those who claim to speak for him are allowed to have an opinion on social issues. These baseless opinions should bear no weight on the governance of a civil society, its laws, or its courts of law. If god wishes to appear himself as an expert witness in court, after he demonstrates his credentials he might be allowed to present his evidence. If Price can conclusively demonstrate that he speaks for god, he might have more relevance.
Otherwise, yes it is the Church's issue. They don't get the prerogative of imposing their rules upon others in civil society. They can impose their rules on those who willingly submit to them as part of the Church's membership.
That was its intended purpose. That's why it was created. Yes the PotF was submitted to the court in DeBoer v. Snyder. And the Prop 8 case. And to the Supreme Court. And many of the related cases. There is no evidence any of these courts ever paid it the slightest attention or even read it for that matter. Anyone could file a Friend of the Court brief in many of these cases. Hundreds were filed in the Supreme Court case. That doesn't mean that any of the judges actually read them.
That's actually a rather odd statement for Price to make in a couple of ways. The Catholics have generally been the strongest ally of the Mormons in the anti-gay marriage fight. The leading expert in the Catholic Church on these issues is certainly Robert George who would knock Price's socks off. They're nowhere near the same class. George has been a staunch, vocal opponent to gay marriage for many years. He writes very well and presents very well reasoned arguments. Unfortunately when you pick them apart George is still wrong. His legal arguments cannot overcome the simpler, plainer arguments in favor of gay marriage. His reasoning is based on "natural law", which is just a fancy name for certain aspects of Catholic doctrine.
However, there's a chance that Price is still correct. Many ten year olds these days actually do understand about the variations in human sexuality, sexual attraction, and gender. Many of them are quite aware that gays exist and are not harming anything. These kids do indeed know more about gender and the family than Robert George.
The actual research, not that fabricated by Price and friends, says the answer is no. The best research available shows no discernible differences between straight, gay, or lesbian parents. Other factors, particularly poverty and relationship stability, are much, much more significant. Actually some of the research shows the best results from lesbian parents, but it is not statistically significant.
The research does, somewhat, show the importance of marriage. Children do better when their parents have stable relationships and don't live in poverty and marriage helps with both of those. Lesbian and gay marriages provide better for the children in their care than when marriage is prohibited for them.
The research isn't really that clear. Single parents can do just as well as married parents. Or blended families. Or split families. Statistically married parents are better, but that's because of the myriad other factors that come into play. Most single-parent families are woman-led and women have a harder time earning enough money to support a family. In other words, a single-parent family (led by a woman) tends to have much more difficulties with money, including dealing with poverty, which is one of the biggest factors in a child's success.
Gender diversity has not been shown to be a significant factor. There are always plenty of examples of gender diversity or support all around us.
The anti-gays have frequently raised the concern of gay and lesbian parents not being biologically related. It is quite the attack on adoptive families of all kinds. When they've tried to bring it up in court, they've been asked if they really want to pursue that line and then they've tried to weasel back out of it. Besides, the best research doesn't show any significant difference for adopted children.
That's what he says, but he really hasn't been able to convince anyone else of that. There are some pretty good studies out there -- his and his friends' do not fall into that classification.
Terrible slippery slope argument with no meaningful basis. Meant to invoke fear in the listener. It is already possible for a judge to award custody to someone who is a non-parent, if the parent is unfit.
* Bias / prejudice of the author - Did the author start by determining the conclusion and then craft data to fit?
One of Price's friends in the DeBoer v. Snyder case, who the judge called unreliable. "Moreover, when Allen controlled for parental education, marital status and five years of residential stability, he discovered that there was no statistically significant difference in graduation rates."
That's putting it mildly. Regnerus' study is awful. The journal that published it discovered irregularities in its review process and issued a statement that it should not have been published. His colleagues at his college issued a statement disavowing and disagreeing with his study. His study has been picked apart in various different ways. His data does not yield the results he claimed. Price's criticisms of studies apply over and over to the Regnerus study.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")
Re: Education week report
Joseph Price's talk on SS marriage sounds like a typical apologetic tactic when most people say you are wrong. If the evidence leans against you then you muddy the waters as much as you can so there is still room to believe. Infuriating.
The Council of 50 talk actually sounds like it was interesting and worth attending, did you enjoy that one?
The Council of 50 talk actually sounds like it was interesting and worth attending, did you enjoy that one?
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut
Re: Education week report
I'm surprised that Joseph Price is still beating this dead horse. And rest assured it is dead. It doth stinketh. At this point all he can do is is run around clapping a couple of coconuts together to obscure places like Education Week. Nobody cares about his research paper.
Even if he were right, though, it really doesn't, or at least shouldn't matter. We have practically no criteria for prohibiting people from marrying based upon their fitness. About the only criteria is that they must be adults capable of consent, and even that isn't absolute. We do not prohibit people or classes of people from marrying based upon any factors that have consistently shown to have suboptimal likelihood for marital success. We don't prohibit marriage based upon the poverty of the individuals, their education, their family background, their prior failed experiences, or the physical fitness. We don't ban marriage for rock stars or Hollywood actors. Lots of factors appear to decrease the likelihood of success, but we don't ban marriage based upon any of those. Even if one of the parties is incarcerated, including if they are deprived of conjugal visits or on death row, we don't ban marriage.
Price is trying to say that according to this one criteria, based upon his very shaky evidence we should change our behavior and ban marriage because of an alleged likelihood of suboptimal results. He has demonstrated neither a reliable likelihood nor a significant degradation. His alleged degradation is less than that of other factors we don't eliminate.
We really don't want to get in the business of denying marriage based on these alleged sub-optimal factors. Nor does Price want this. If we could it could reasonably open the door for any number of unwanted discriminations. For example, some localities could ban Mormons from marrying because it can be demonstrated they have wacky religious beliefs and waste much of their money by sending it to their religious institution in SLC -- indeed they aren't even Christian. (All according to some people.) Or some agency could deny marriage to mixed-faith relationships. Or December - May romances. Or a whole host of things.
Further, what Price demands is that we prohibit marriages based upon fitness to raise children. He argues that in cases in which the rearing of children is allegedly suboptimal, then we should not allow the marriage to proceed. But, no law limits marriage to those who are capable of or plan on rearing children. And no law determines whether someone is a fit parent or whether the couple or their situation provide and optimal environment for child-rearing.
Ultimately, all Price wants is the license from the state to impose his own religious beliefs and prejudices upon everyone else. That is the "freedom of religion" that he and his associates seek and which a varied, secular society cannot grant him.
Even if he were right, though, it really doesn't, or at least shouldn't matter. We have practically no criteria for prohibiting people from marrying based upon their fitness. About the only criteria is that they must be adults capable of consent, and even that isn't absolute. We do not prohibit people or classes of people from marrying based upon any factors that have consistently shown to have suboptimal likelihood for marital success. We don't prohibit marriage based upon the poverty of the individuals, their education, their family background, their prior failed experiences, or the physical fitness. We don't ban marriage for rock stars or Hollywood actors. Lots of factors appear to decrease the likelihood of success, but we don't ban marriage based upon any of those. Even if one of the parties is incarcerated, including if they are deprived of conjugal visits or on death row, we don't ban marriage.
Price is trying to say that according to this one criteria, based upon his very shaky evidence we should change our behavior and ban marriage because of an alleged likelihood of suboptimal results. He has demonstrated neither a reliable likelihood nor a significant degradation. His alleged degradation is less than that of other factors we don't eliminate.
We really don't want to get in the business of denying marriage based on these alleged sub-optimal factors. Nor does Price want this. If we could it could reasonably open the door for any number of unwanted discriminations. For example, some localities could ban Mormons from marrying because it can be demonstrated they have wacky religious beliefs and waste much of their money by sending it to their religious institution in SLC -- indeed they aren't even Christian. (All according to some people.) Or some agency could deny marriage to mixed-faith relationships. Or December - May romances. Or a whole host of things.
Further, what Price demands is that we prohibit marriages based upon fitness to raise children. He argues that in cases in which the rearing of children is allegedly suboptimal, then we should not allow the marriage to proceed. But, no law limits marriage to those who are capable of or plan on rearing children. And no law determines whether someone is a fit parent or whether the couple or their situation provide and optimal environment for child-rearing.
Ultimately, all Price wants is the license from the state to impose his own religious beliefs and prejudices upon everyone else. That is the "freedom of religion" that he and his associates seek and which a varied, secular society cannot grant him.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")